Champion System Ability Review

olsborg · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

What I would change on passives:

Hardy: Reduces physical, poison and disease dmg
Elemental (magical) defender: Now also reduces magic dmg
Thick skinned: Reduces the effectiveness of healing debuffs by up to 33% (additive counteracting befoul)

Mighty: Increases physical, poison and disease dmg.
Thaumaturge: Increases duration of snare, fear and disorient (counter for elusive) - both need a buff (maybe higher % and affecting all cc)

Elemental expert: Also increases magic dmg.

Nourishing: Let it take effect on all potion effects and their duration.

All weapon passives: Increase the value to ~33% at 100 points invested and let them also buff attack speed by that amount (make heavy attacks bashable again please).

I have no idea what to do about tenacy and shade and will add thoughts about unlocks later.

This is an idea I will support fully with all my ESO-Plus power.

Dalsinthus · December 2015

Overall I think the Champion System is really good. I actually would leave it as it is. If you feel that things must be tweaked, here are some suggestions in the context of the three discussion points.

Ensure bonuses have a counter weight

Only light/medium/heavy focus counteract physical damage and they do so by a very marginal amount. These stars seem good at first, but when you crunch the numbers you realize how much of a trap choice this is. For example, at 100 points in medium armor focus, my medium armor NB would gain less than 2.5% damage reduction. 13% improvement on roughly 17% damage mitigation in v16 gold medium armor becomes roughly 19% damage mitigation. Compare this to the effectiveness of 100 points in elemental defender and you quickly realize how your warrior points should be spent. The percentage improvement sounds good until you crunch the numbers. This does not counteract the increased damage from something like Mighty.

However, if you do make changes to these stars, you upset the current balances between builds, as right now magic builds out dps stamina builds in pve and the two are roughly equivalent in pvp. If you weaken stamina by increasing physical mitigation, you will need to adjust many other places to insure that you're not upsetting the balance among classes. I would be very thoughtful before making these adjustments as it can easily make imbalances worse.

Improve infrequently selected bonuses

This is difficult as there is always going to be priority areas for certain builds - augmented healing and damage, lowered magic and stamina costs, increased stamina and magic regen, improved shield effectiveness, etc. Many of the other abilities would be nice to have, but they will inevitably have to wait until a character has more cp.

I would merge light, medium, and heavy armor focus into one star. When a character reaches a high cp amount and the cap is lifted, two of these three stars will be useless. I would just create an "armor focus" star and then use the open slots to make two new stars with useful and interesting agmentations.

Other stars:

Bashing focus is weak; this is an infrequently used ability making it hard to justify investing points. This could be merged with block expertise.

Inspiration boost is a largely useless passive; most characters have crafting at 50 by the time they earn this.

Tenacity is nice, but it is a great example of a star that is going to be less desirable than reduce cost and increase regen.

Sprinter could be merged with tumbling to make both of these decent, but not amazing, stars better.

Shade is not great. There are lots of ways to reduce sneak cost to nearly zero as it is. I can only see this being useful to builds that would be unlikely to invest in sneak through armor and skill points (e.g., tank).

Merchant Favored: Is armor repair cost that big of a burden? This is lackluster as a passive.

Shadowstrike: For a 120 point passive, this is weak. It is going to be rare to use a heavy attack to finish an opponent. Some type of improvement seems necessary. Making it light or heavy would be an improvement. It could also be for any single target attack, although that would be very powerful.

Shield Expert: only useful for a small percentage of builds, further weakening the steed constellation. If you do use a shield though, this is a great passive.

Spell shield is OK, but it suffers from similar problems to the armor focus stars. At least the % increase is 25 instead of 13. Elemental Defender and Hardy are much better options.

Resilient: 160 health is pretty negligible.

Critical Leach: 87 health must be a typo. This is too small to matter at all.

Nourishing: I actually like this star, but it is pretty narrow and thus won't see much investment until people get a lot of cp. It could apply to all positive potion effects or reduce cooldown time to make it more effective.

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing

I think the armor focus stars and spell shield are misleading as they are presented. This largely relates to how non-transparent physical and spell resistance are. Switching between % reductions in some places and the resistance scores in others makes it confusing to calculate exactly what a star does. This information is available on the internet if one wants to look for it, but the game could be a lot more transparent (and therefore approachable to new players) by spelling out how armor and spell resistance works.

It is also not always clear where elfborn vs. precise strikes applies. I think many stamina users would be surprised that they need elfborn to improve their magic or poison damage powers.

pilotfish · December 2015

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing

magictucktuck wrote: »

Maybe a newb question but wanted to be sure. Using mighty increases my stam nb's suprise attack because it's phisical damage. Now power extraction and killers blade do magic but are also stamina morphs. Do they also get effected by mighty and thaumaturge or just thaumaturge?

Yes, stuff like this can be confusing for a new player. It is further complicated by inconsistent terminology.

Opportunist - Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 15% after you interrupt a target

Mighty - Increases your physical damage by X%

Ok, so there is a difference between physical attacks and physical damage... I think. Not explained anywhere.

Piercing - Increases the amount of armor your physical attacks ignore by X%

I think I am getting it. I may be on to something!

Thaumaturge - Increases your damage with poison, disease and magic by X%

Why isn't it phrased the same way as Mighty? Clearly these sort of nuances matter, right? Physical damage is not Physical Attack. Magical Attack is Not Magical damage. Wait, there is no "magical attack".

Vengeance - Guarantees your next spell will be a critical hit after you block three spells within 10 seconds of each other.

Spells... not Magical Attacks. Why? Make a list of terms in the help tab so people aren't guessing and make them consistent.

When one then considers a skill like Obsidian shard - Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal X Physical Damage and knock them down for X seconds, it can be a real head-scratcher.

Riposte - While blocking, grants a 15% chance to return x damage to attacker when you block a melee attack. Sure, a little redundant but what in the world is a melee attack? Not explained anywhere. It is a light or heavy attack but not using a bow or staff? Do the skill tool tips talk about the skill being officially a "Melee Attack" and use this term anywhere? No.

The flavor that was recently added to the skill tool tips didn't help.

Pierce Armor reads "Thrust your weapon with disciplined precision to deal X Physical Damage..." and might have simply said it like "Melee Attack to deal X physical damage..." which would let me refer to the 5 meter range and think Ok! I get it! OR you could just tell me what the heck a "Melee Attack" means numerically when describing Riposte. Like, come on. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Dagoth_Rac · December 2015

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Explain why some stars seem to 'jump' points in effectiveness.

If you are referring to Elfborn and Precise Strikes, this is almost certainly because the ESO database is storing numbers to only 2 decimal places. When dealing with a small number like critical damage multiplier, a single CP might take you from 1.5714 to 1.5739. But that is getting stored as 1.57 in both cases because that is all the database field can hold. You have to hit 1.5750 and get rounded up to 1.58 to see the difference. And then you will need a bunch more points to reach 1.5850 and round up to 1.59 and see the next increase in damage.

I cannot be certain of this because I have no access to the ESO code or database. But this behavior has all the hallmarks of a database field not stored to enough precision.

ssewallb14_ESO · December 2015

Just one thing:

There needs to be either be a direct physical damage reduction CP bonus, or Hardy and Elemental defender need to be removed. I would argue this is the biggest balance problem in the game right now. Currently stamina DPS is heavily underperforming in PvE, but performing well or even slightly overperforming in PvP. Magicka currently has superior raw damage in both modes, but the lack of direct physical damage mitigation in PvP makes stamina hit comparatively harder when players have invested in hardy and elemental defender. The problem is this is only in PvP, trial bosses don't have Hardy and Elemental defender. Any buffs to stamina damage would overpower stamina build in PvP. It's near impossible to fix one mode without breaking the other with the current setup. If you fix one thing next patch, it should be this.

1. (PvE) Buff stamina damage until it's competitive with magicka melee (magicka DK DPS is a good baseline)
2. Add direct physical damage mitigation to the champion system
3. (PvP) Tune physical damage reduction bonus until Stamina damage is roughly where it is right now.

driosketch · December 2015

Okay I'll put in my two cents.

Warrior

First off, the logic is a bit off with the armor stars. I think you should probably rotate them one tree clockwise. Steed is a very tanky tree, it should have the heavy armor focus. And then you would have the light armor mixed with shield star, if that's what bastion means, I'm not fully clear on what it helps.

You might consider, instead of increased armor, you make each focus give a boost to the passives for that armor type when you wear at least 5 pieces. The amount might need some adjusting of course.

A little more swapping. Maybe swap and reblance spell absorption and determination perks. Pull spell shield into Lord and toss norishing over to Steed but change it to a counter for mighty. This will give two strong tree options for heavy and light armor wearers, the new medium tree, Lady, might need some tweaking.

Thief

The perks are a little over the map here. Inspiration is a nice perk, but will eventuality not be needed, so it should be a 10 point perk to help new players. Swap out ensnare for another perk like merchant favored to fit the cost reduction theme of Tower. Maybe replace master gatherer in Lover. Harvesting doesn't need to be that faster unless trying to harvest near mobs, and plentiful is already a nice enough bonus.

Someone pointed out elusive isn't much of a bonus when these CC last only seconds. Increase to CC immunity would be better.

Mage

Not much here, just note that stamina and magicka builds both need to pull from each other's trees for elemental or magic damage. Also, why is Ritual not the one with the healer stars?

I don't know if the retaliation perk is working. The orange arms don't go away after a normal weapon attack. Is this not considered a physical attack, or is the visual cue bugged?

k9mouse · December 2015

I am somewhat confused about the text tip text when it is for a weapon. Is the term "weapon" talking about stam (like swords, bows, etc) or magic ( staves). In the blue "Ritual" star cluster, Precise Strikes for an example: Weapons crits, what type of weapon? I am assuming melee based on type of star cluster it is in, but the tooltip does not say for sure.

Dagoth_Rac · December 2015

k9mouse wrote: »

I am somewhat confused about the text tip text when it is for a weapon. Is the term "weapon" talking about stam (like swords, bows, etc) or magic ( staves). In the blue "Ritual" star cluster, Precise Strikes for an example: Weapons crits, what type of weapon? I am assuming melee based on type of star cluster it is in, but the tooltip does not say for sure.

If a skill uses stamina, it scales off max stamina + weapon damage, crits based on weapon crit, and is mitigated by armor.

If a skill uses magicka, it scales off max magicka + spell damage, crits based on spell crit, and is mitigated by spell resistance.

Weapon crit used to be melee crits, even melee class skills that used magicka! But it now follows the rules I gave above. Ranged or melee, class or weapon, guild or world, PvE or PvP. The only thing that matters to crit is the resource used by the skill.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · December 2015

@Dagoth_Rac I had a feeling it had to do with the how the calcs were rounding, and confirmed once I read the TF post on it, but for a system billed 'add a point increase strength' it seems out of place for the jumps, math aside. Moreover I find it alarming if it wasn't for Asarye and his/her friends(spelling? You know the one, the math hero undertaking testing tasks he or she shouldnt need to in a game) post on TF detailing how elfborn works the hard math would have been generally unknown.

For me without add-ons its been a headache trying to figure out puncturing sweep and the stars that raise its effectiveness. I know thaum raises its dam whereby raising its heal (I think) but then does blessed factor into the heal component because I pretty confident quick recovery does. I'm fairly certain elfborn does when it crits but does spell erosion increase its effectiveness since the damage increases on target due to lower mitigation? How are these things intertwined calc wise with certain stars taking precedent in equation over others?

So when we are asked as forum posters about the champ system and changes I think directly to the above paragraph I wrote and honestly ask how anyone without add-ons could give an informed opinion on cp interactions with respect to changes.

Minno · December 2015

Mage tree:

- consolidate the 3 trees into their respective focus. One for magicka users, one for physical dmg, and one for weapon. Passives should reflect their respective trees with weapon tree containing a mix of both (to stimulate hybridization.). Strict testing to ensure proper balance between physical/magicka users.

Warrior tree

- consolidate the trees into allowing specialization into the (3) available armor types. Best example is the steed with passives and CP dedicated to shield users with heavy armor (except currently has medium armor increase?!? lol ). Warrior line has potential to boost/augment armor but fails by having passives/CP dedicated to either useless stats, intense blanket mitigation, or cross polinates too much. I think this tree requires a separate thread with proposals set by ZOSfor player review (trust me you'll benefit from our free work.)

Thief tree

- weird name for essentially a resource dedicated tree, but once again a nice consolidated effort is needed. Can have one tree for all cost reduction with passives, one for regen, and one dedicated to crafting resources (give crafter's a dedicated way to be creative!!!). This way we can remove anything associated with horse mounts (you already have player riding skill.). And then you can keep the trees simple yet elegant.

I know this change was vague, but to be honest, ZOS its up to you to get us a viable alternate to review. Without a steady synapsis of changes or directions you hope to take, its hard to gauge the direction we want to take our current playstyles. Also thi constant coordination aligns with your TOS better because how can we provide proper feedback if the receiving end is in total darkness until update launch? If you want substantial information as per the TOS agreements, please open up further communication with us and let us know our earnest and hard efforts are not being forgotten come each major update.

Derra · December 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What I would change on passives:
Thick skinned: Reduces the effectiveness of healing debuffs by up to 33% (additive counteracting befoul)

Befoul is already countered by Blessed & Quick Recovery.

The 33% of Befoul fits well enough with the 25% self-heal from Blessed and the 16% from Quick Recovery

Well maybe make it weaker then (sth like 20% at 100 points) but even if you have quick recovery AND blessed maxed it does not counteract befoul in the way wrobel describes it (and it should not take two passives let alone three to achieve that).

Take note that Blessed and Quick Recovery are combined in a multiplicative way !!!

If you have both at 100 CP you get 1.25 x 1.16 = 1.45 more Healing, or 45% more.

If you have both at 50 CP (the fair comparison with 100 CP in Befoul) you get 1.15 x 1.10 = 1.265 more Healing, or 26.5% more.
That would indicate that Befoul should not be more than 26.5%

But Heals do crit.
And if they crit they also benefit from Elfborn (Magicka heals) or Precise Strikes (Stamina Heals)
Again multiplicative....

So I think that the 33% of Befoul is not that badly chosen.
At lower total CP's available Befoul wins, at higher total CP's available increased Healing wins !

That at lower total CP available the offensive has better cards, can achieve more Damage output, than the defensive side..... is a general dynamic inbalance effect of the CP tree.
That is also one of the reasons why the one stat stack meta is so strong at the moment.

I mentioned this already in several posts lately, and again in this thread on post #11.

EDIT added:
It is kind of sneaky that Befoul is in the cost reducing constellation "the Thief" and not in the constellation "the Mage" where the other offensive stars are like Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Mighty and Precise Strikes....
Offensive characters can nicely stack

Wrong math leading to wrong conclusion - with 100 points into befoul healdebuff will reduce a heal with 100 into blessed + 100 quick by 63%.

For a heal of value 100 this means:

100 x 1.16 x 1.25 = 145
145 x 0.37 = 53,65

For comparison without any cp passives it would be:

100 x 0.7 = 70

That´s still a 16.35% difference in favor of befoul. So you would still need a passive offering atleast these 16.35% to counteract the effects of befoul and this would be at the cost of 300 cp compared to 100.

(Ofc all of this is under the assumption that befoul gets changed to work in the way our lead combat designer

THINKS it is working)

Xsorus · December 2015

Befoul at 63% would be over top, since despite what people have said... Disease status effect does stack with healing debuffs (this was tested this patch) and is around 15% reduction. Which I assuming would get the cp bonus as well.

Bashev · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What I would change on passives:
Thick skinned: Reduces the effectiveness of healing debuffs by up to 33% (additive counteracting befoul)

Befoul is already countered by Blessed & Quick Recovery.

The 33% of Befoul fits well enough with the 25% self-heal from Blessed and the 16% from Quick Recovery

Well maybe make it weaker then (sth like 20% at 100 points) but even if you have quick recovery AND blessed maxed it does not counteract befoul in the way wrobel describes it (and it should not take two passives let alone three to achieve that).

Take note that Blessed and Quick Recovery are combined in a multiplicative way !!!

If you have both at 100 CP you get 1.25 x 1.16 = 1.45 more Healing, or 45% more.

If you have both at 50 CP (the fair comparison with 100 CP in Befoul) you get 1.15 x 1.10 = 1.265 more Healing, or 26.5% more.
That would indicate that Befoul should not be more than 26.5%

But Heals do crit.
And if they crit they also benefit from Elfborn (Magicka heals) or Precise Strikes (Stamina Heals)
Again multiplicative....

So I think that the 33% of Befoul is not that badly chosen.
At lower total CP's available Befoul wins, at higher total CP's available increased Healing wins !

That at lower total CP available the offensive has better cards, can achieve more Damage output, than the defensive side..... is a general dynamic inbalance effect of the CP tree.
That is also one of the reasons why the one stat stack meta is so strong at the moment.

I mentioned this already in several posts lately, and again in this thread on post #11.

EDIT added:
It is kind of sneaky that Befoul is in the cost reducing constellation "the Thief" and not in the constellation "the Mage" where the other offensive stars are like Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Mighty and Precise Strikes....
Offensive characters can nicely stack

Wrong math leading to wrong conclusion - with 100 points into befoul healdebuff will reduce a heal with 100 into blessed + 100 quick by 63%.

For a heal of value 100 this means:

100 x 1.16 x 1.25 x 0.37 = 53,65

For comparison without any cp passives it would be:

100 x 0.7 = 70

That´s still a 16.35% difference in favor of befoul. So you would still need a passive offering atleast these 16.35% to counteract the effects of befoul and this would be at the cost of 300 cp compared to 100.

(Ofc all of this is under the assumption that befoul gets changed to work in the way our lead combat designer THINKS it is working)

@Derra the healing debuf is 40% with 100 points (30*1.33). Dont listen what @Wrobel wrote. He is wrong. I can provide screenshots, even a video if it is needed.

Minno · December 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I wish ZOS would participate in these discussions $:\$

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to be a discussion or Q&A, the goal is to gather feedback from everyone about the topic at hand.

With that said, please keep this thread focused on what Wrobel and his team are looking for: three changes you'd like to see with the Champion bonuses. This is not a place to discuss other systems. Thank you!

Not to derail, but if this is only to collect data, when can we expect an update with discussion?

We can better utilize our end of the TOS agreements (reporting buggy aspects of the game), if we can get a discussion in before implementation. Not a negative comment, just want to make sure players are performing at our end, at great expense of personal time, efficiently.

Derra · December 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What I would change on passives:
Thick skinned: Reduces the effectiveness of healing debuffs by up to 33% (additive counteracting befoul)

Befoul is already countered by Blessed & Quick Recovery.

The 33% of Befoul fits well enough with the 25% self-heal from Blessed and the 16% from Quick Recovery

Well maybe make it weaker then (sth like 20% at 100 points) but even if you have quick recovery AND blessed maxed it does not counteract befoul in the way wrobel describes it (and it should not take two passives let alone three to achieve that).

Take note that Blessed and Quick Recovery are combined in a multiplicative way !!!

If you have both at 100 CP you get 1.25 x 1.16 = 1.45 more Healing, or 45% more.

If you have both at 50 CP (the fair comparison with 100 CP in Befoul) you get 1.15 x 1.10 = 1.265 more Healing, or 26.5% more.
That would indicate that Befoul should not be more than 26.5%

But Heals do crit.
And if they crit they also benefit from Elfborn (Magicka heals) or Precise Strikes (Stamina Heals)
Again multiplicative....

So I think that the 33% of Befoul is not that badly chosen.
At lower total CP's available Befoul wins, at higher total CP's available increased Healing wins !

That at lower total CP available the offensive has better cards, can achieve more Damage output, than the defensive side..... is a general dynamic inbalance effect of the CP tree.
That is also one of the reasons why the one stat stack meta is so strong at the moment.

I mentioned this already in several posts lately, and again in this thread on post #11.

EDIT added:
It is kind of sneaky that Befoul is in the cost reducing constellation "the Thief" and not in the constellation "the Mage" where the other offensive stars are like Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Mighty and Precise Strikes....
Offensive characters can nicely stack

Wrong math leading to wrong conclusion - with 100 points into befoul healdebuff will reduce a heal with 100 into blessed + 100 quick by 63%.

For a heal of value 100 this means:

100 x 1.16 x 1.25 x 0.37 = 53,65

For comparison without any cp passives it would be:

100 x 0.7 = 70

That´s still a 16.35% difference in favor of befoul. So you would still need a passive offering atleast these 16.35% to counteract the effects of befoul and this would be at the cost of 300 cp compared to 100.

(Ofc all of this is under the assumption that befoul gets changed to work in the way our lead combat designer THINKS it is working)

@Derra the healing debuf is 40% with 100 points (30*1.33). Dont listen what @Wrobel wrote. He is wrong. I can provide screenshots, even a video if it is needed.

I know - i´ve tested that the instant i´ve read it - hence the edit: for the case it gets changed to work in the way wrobel thinks it´s working it would need a passive countering it.

Bashev · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What I would change on passives:
Thick skinned: Reduces the effectiveness of healing debuffs by up to 33% (additive counteracting befoul)

Befoul is already countered by Blessed & Quick Recovery.

The 33% of Befoul fits well enough with the 25% self-heal from Blessed and the 16% from Quick Recovery

Well maybe make it weaker then (sth like 20% at 100 points) but even if you have quick recovery AND blessed maxed it does not counteract befoul in the way wrobel describes it (and it should not take two passives let alone three to achieve that).

Take note that Blessed and Quick Recovery are combined in a multiplicative way !!!

If you have both at 100 CP you get 1.25 x 1.16 = 1.45 more Healing, or 45% more.

If you have both at 50 CP (the fair comparison with 100 CP in Befoul) you get 1.15 x 1.10 = 1.265 more Healing, or 26.5% more.
That would indicate that Befoul should not be more than 26.5%

But Heals do crit.
And if they crit they also benefit from Elfborn (Magicka heals) or Precise Strikes (Stamina Heals)
Again multiplicative....

So I think that the 33% of Befoul is not that badly chosen.
At lower total CP's available Befoul wins, at higher total CP's available increased Healing wins !

That at lower total CP available the offensive has better cards, can achieve more Damage output, than the defensive side..... is a general dynamic inbalance effect of the CP tree.
That is also one of the reasons why the one stat stack meta is so strong at the moment.

I mentioned this already in several posts lately, and again in this thread on post #11.

EDIT added:
It is kind of sneaky that Befoul is in the cost reducing constellation "the Thief" and not in the constellation "the Mage" where the other offensive stars are like Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Mighty and Precise Strikes....
Offensive characters can nicely stack

Wrong math leading to wrong conclusion - with 100 points into befoul healdebuff will reduce a heal with 100 into blessed + 100 quick by 63%.

For a heal of value 100 this means:

100 x 1.16 x 1.25 x 0.37 = 53,65

For comparison without any cp passives it would be:

100 x 0.7 = 70

That´s still a 16.35% difference in favor of befoul. So you would still need a passive offering atleast these 16.35% to counteract the effects of befoul and this would be at the cost of 300 cp compared to 100.

(Ofc all of this is under the assumption that befoul gets changed to work in the way our lead combat designer THINKS it is working)

@Derra the healing debuf is 40% with 100 points (30*1.33). Dont listen what @Wrobel wrote. He is wrong. I can provide screenshots, even a video if it is needed.

I know - i´ve tested that the instant i´ve read it - hence the edit: for the case it gets changed to work in the way wrobel thinks it´s working it would need a passive countering it.

If they change it, yes definitely we will need some way to counter it.

Solariken · December 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Also one very important point I forgot to mention. Eventually most people will be at 3000-3600 cp, by then, everyone will be the same when it comes to CP diversity because everyone will have everything.

This is not good, people need to have choices, if you choose this you cannot choose that etc etc. Choice is important, simply alowing everyone to have everything makes builds and gameplay stale imo.

Which is why I think the eventual limit should never be greater than 1200 out of 3600 (or 1/3 of whatever the total ends up being).

Emma_Overload · December 2015

Please consider changing the DOT damage reduction passive into Physical damage reduction.

DOTs are so weak to begin with, and Physical damage is so strong, this would be a way to kill 2 birds with one stone and bring magicka and stamina builds closer to balance!

Solariken · December 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Look, whatever you do, please please just bring back some form of softcaps (at the very least for PvP).
You NEED to reign in these infinite resource builds.
You NEED to reign in these bursty 1-shot builds.
You NEED to step in, take charge, set stronger limitations.

Amen to that. The soft caps do need to be softer than what they were before though - I think they used to be 50%. Maybe a mult-tiered system is the way to go - something like 10% reduction until you reach X, then 20% reduction until you reach Y, etc. Soft caps felt too much like a hard cap before.

blabafat · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Ensure every bonus has a counter weight:
For the Champion System, every offensive bonus should have a defensive counterpart and vice versa. For example: Offensive players can get increased spell penetration from Spell Erosion, while defensive players can get increased spell resistance from Spell Shield.

Mighty does not have a counter currently.

timidobserver · December 2015

@Wrobel

1. I know this is going to be a challenge, but reflect CP bonuses in all skill tooltips. If CP changes anything at all about a skill, it should be reflected in the tooltip. For example, if I put 100 points into hardy, my magical damage tooltips should reflect that damage increase.

2. Merge some of the less powerful passives in order to create space to create additional passives. For example, merge Sprinter in the Tower and Elusive in the Shadow. Merge all of the armor focus trees into one and just have it to affect whichever type of armor you are wearing 5 pieces of(no point in having 3 different passives since you can only ever benefit from one at a time due to the 5 piece requirement.) Merge quicker recovery and nourishing. Merge Thaumturge in the Ritual and Blessed in the Apprentice.

3. Replace/buff/merge some of the less useful unlocks like determination in The Lord constellation(seriously wtf is a 120 point unlock?), Mara's Gift in the Towern, Merchant Favored in the Shadow,ect.

RoamingRiverElk · December 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Befoul reads: “Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by 33%”. This bonus is actually additive, so a 30% debuff ends up being a 63% debuff when this passive is maxed. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.

Really. Why than with 100 Befoul, Dark Flare from 30% reduction becoming 40%?

Yep, the same tested with DK standard some months ago.

Destyran · December 2015

Ok get rid of thick skinned and replace it with reduce physical damage taken by 16%

Destyran · December 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Befoul reads: “Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by 33%”. This bonus is actually additive, so a 30% debuff ends up being a 63% debuff when this passive is maxed. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.

With 100pts into Befoul my reverberating bash / soul harvest tells me it reduces heals by 40 %. Either it´s an error in the tooltip or it´s not working as you described.

He is talking about nerfing templars again and ruining dark flare.

redspecter23 · December 2015

I'd put something like treasure hunter in all trees. Not a direct power boost but for some playstyles, it's quite useful. Also allow real advantages in serious situations like dungeons and pvp for these abilities. Someone might choose to go max dps but another might want these less combat oriented abilities instead at a cost to their power. They should be rewarded for that opportunity cost with increased gains. Treasure chests in dungeons are lame right now. The treasure hunter passive is of practically no use there when you can just go out into Wrothgar and get the same two chests in a few minutes time.

If treasure hunter increased your chance of mob drops like monster helms then you have a real choice to make. You can make the dungeon a bit harder on yourself by spending points in treasure hunter instead of cost reductions but at the same time make it easier to acquire the boss drop monster sets. That's the kind of "tough choice" that I'd like to see. Right now, you just lump everything into max dps abilities and it doesn't feel at all like a choice. Maybe add an ability to increase AP gains in another tree that will create choices similar to treasure hunter but for pvp.

Junkogen · December 2015

I don't get what people are saying about there not being physical damage resisyance. Don't the armor specialization stars provide physical resistance? Also, this is a slippery slope. Magicka builds have way more tools in their arsenals. Don't break stamina builds by making them hit like nerf bats.

Sharee · December 2015

Asmael wrote: »

2) The Shadow > Elusive passive

Reducing duration of CCs is a counter-synergy to reducing the cost of Dodge rolls / Break free, and between the two, the choice is quickly done: not using break free within 1 second is usually a death sentence when you have 2 or more people focusing you.

There are many few possible replacements: retaining stamina regeneration while blocking, increasing base movement speed (would probably too strong and I wouldn't recommend it), reducing detection radius...

This caught my attention as especially useless as well. Who in their right mind would ride out a CC duration without breaking out...

For replacement, i was thinking "x% chance incoming CC won't affect you". That's something i could see myself investing in.

Sharee · December 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

I don't get what people are saying about there not being physical damage resisyance. Don't the armor specialization stars provide physical resistance?

Armor specialization is equivalent to the 'increase spell resistance' passive.
But there is no physical equivalent to the 'reduce incoming magic damage by x%' passive.

GreenSoup2HoT · December 2015

@Wrobel

I know you said you would rather buff then nerf Wrobel but this passive is a little to good compared to every single other passive tier (120cp).

Unchained: Reduce's stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 3 second's after cc breaking.

Compared to other's in Warrior Tier:

-Reinforced: Whiling blocking gain a 1.3k damage shield every 10 second's.
-Determination: Absorb 1.3k damage for 15 second's after potion use.

You really need to buff these two passive's like crazy to even compare to Unchained. Unchained is the most overpowered passive you have in there.

Suggestion for change:

-Reinforced: When activating block, mitigate 80% damage for 3 second's. X (20+ second's) cool-down.
-Determination: Absorb 80% of incoming damage for 3 second's after drinking a potion.

These change's need to be directly competitive with Unchained. People may claim these suggest's are overpowered but you gotta realize Unchained is completely overpowered.

To be honest Wrobel, it would be much easier to nerf this specific passive then buff every single other one.

A Physical damage reduction passive would be nice to have.

There is reduction's to magic damage and elemental damage with the ability to increase resistance's to spell's. All we have to mitigate physical damage is reducing the damage we receive from critical's or increasing are Armour.

We need a complete physical damage resist that does not relie on Armour. Is it unfair to magicka user's because we can straight up resist there damage even in light/medium Armour.

The problem is Shield's. They cannot be effected by this champion passive without adjustment's to shield's them self's. If they scaled of hp then these passive's would be must have's for sorcerer's. The amount of shield's they can stack and continue to stack is just absurd. They have 100% damage but can tank better then anyone (in pvp). If this passive was added, you would add-on to a meta of hardened ward stacker's who can still deal ton's of damage. Personally shield's need to be adjusted and scale off health. Most other shield's do. If you wanna be a glass cannon, you cannot have the insane defense's too. (Anyone who dis-agree's is a sorc... if you had the physical damage passive's you would be fine with this change).

However instead i suggest a way of mitigating Armour penetration. So Armour can be more viably stacked to reduce physical damage, however classes that relie on shield's will not be able to benefit from this.

This would also improve the current meta. There are no tank's simply because Armour is so easily mitigated with all the Armour penetration you can stack.

You need a counter to Armour penetration.

-Swap the "Thick Skinned" and "Spell Shield" passive's.
-Then change "Thick Skinned" to reduce the amount your Armour can be penetrated.

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Befoul reads: “Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by 33%”. This bonus is actually additive, so a 30% debuff ends up being a 63% debuff when this passive is maxed. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.

Why does my soul harvest say only debuff 40% instead of this 63%? You said this bonus is hard to determine by reading tooltip's but why doesn't the tooltip's of the effected skill's reflect the intention of the passive?

This is a champion tree thread.

However you really need to look at Sorcerer and Nightblade for balance reason's as well.

1: Sorcerer Shield's stacking. Easy fix, make shield's stack off health.

(Sorc's before you say anything, you would gain physical resist cp passive's).

2: Nightblade damage. Easy fix, make all damage increasing abilities (flawless dawn breaker/relentless focus/major brutality) only effect base weapon damage without warrior mundus included. This would reduce there weapon damage by 700 easily.

Gilliamtherogue · December 2015

1. Rework the current bonuses in the Mage Celestial Tree, caster builds have 5 points to spend things into; Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Spell Erosion, Elemental Expert, and Staff Expert. They gain from bonuses in the Ritual Tree such as Exploiter and Last Stand, while stamina builds are often split between 8-9 different trees (all stam builds need Elfborn, Erosion, Mighty, Precise, Piercing, Blade Expert, and Elemental Expert, as well as Bow Expert or Blunt Expert) but have no benifit from passives like Vengeance/Arcane Well/Foresight. The glaring differences in progressive power are mind boggling as caster builds get most of their power spikes early on without this extremely long goal ahead of them needing almost all 1200 points in the Mage Trees to feel finalized. The same applies to the Warrior Tree but you've already mentioned wanting to add checks and balances in terms of damage vs defense.

2. Rework the Atronach, the Lord, and the Shadow. Currently these are all of the "quality of life" trees that have some unique powers that are passed up due to small CP caps (with the exception of the Shadow for PvP, but ultimately is disregarded in PvE at this point). The Atronach and Lord both offer bonuses, but have much less relevance in comparison to their counterparts in the trees. The Atronach should move away from basic damage from LA/HA damage and move toward overall damage of weapon abilities or perhaps something completely different if it ever is to be a contender in terms of progressive power compared to the Ritual or Apprentice. The Shadow should see something to help empower stealthy build option such as sneak damage/stealth radius/or perhaps a decrease in hatred/aggro gain. I was really excited before the Shadow tree was revealed since I figured it'd be something I'd focus on with my nightblade, but ultimately was extremely disappointing. I shouldn't really have to explain the Lord as you have mentioned it in the OP and seemingly understand the faults of this tree.

3. Move away from the current goal where CP cap will allow for all points and constellations to be filled. The whole purpose of CP was to broaden build diversity, but it's overall goal has nothing different or unique from build to build; everyone will eventually have all 3600 points spent in the exact same places and feel equally powerful from it (aside from class/build progression power- not every build can fully utilize CP's vast bonuses to the same extents). In the end CP should offer really powerful choices in many categories and should have the investor really torn between what they should spend their points in, so their final decision feels more gratifying and personal. Players could always change their CP layouts situationally but still retain the meaning of choice and diversity. Right now many constellation's passive unlocks (10, 30, 75, 120) don't really match up to their counter parts. For example, Last Stand and Arcane Well don't really match up at all in terms of power. Arcane Well and Unchained are more in line with comparison, but you can easily get both without sacrificing anything within the same Celestial Tree. Obviously it would be boring to have each final passive just be the same thing but catering to a different spec (magicka back vs stamina back vs healing), but putting them more in line so each build has a sense of "Oh boy I can't wait till I get my 120 unlock, it's going to unlock a lot of new power moments!"