Nerf Wrecking Blow

Armitas · December 2015

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Armitas · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

That's why I said "have a snare immunity", so you don't get affecting by the snares. Also, if your method of countering wrecking blow is to hold block, you are already in a bad position. Tap block when they're about to hit so you move at a proper speed. Also, getting hit from behind doesn't do extra damage so there's no need to worry about directionality in that instance.

Yes, snare removal costs stamina, but you already need to be responsible about prioritizing where you spend stamina if you are a magicka build, wrecking blow is not specifically causing your issue. Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation. Heck, if you're a sorc you can just streak through them, stunning them and getting out of any theoretical snares.

Then there's also the "don't get outmaneuvered" issue. If your opponent cornered you or got the drop on you, such that they are even able to do this wrecking blow + snare routine, you should absolutely expect them to have an advantage on you and make you go on the defensive. It should be hard to turn it back around because they specifically tricked you into a precarious circumstance. Once again, it's not an issue with Wrecking Blow, it's a general combat problem that you'd be stuck in regardless.

Armitas · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

Armitas · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons and it is easily rolled out of, blocked and distance checked. It helps, for sure, this is what I use when I fight non snare WBers and I can stay behind them 90% of the time and suffering very few WB's, but It's just not the case with a snare on me.

QuebraRegra · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it and they have CC immunity.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

That is the essence of the problem. Well stated.

Been that way for far too long, which is why it's the prevailing meta as usual.

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

Snare pairs well with absolutely everything, it's not just a Wrecking Blow issue, so once again we're back to things that aren't a problem with Wrecking Blow. You're also assuming they have the two-handed gap closer, and that they took the morph that applies a snare. Might be good for a gank build, but if you're fighting a ganker then we're back to being in a disadvantaged situation in general, not an issue with Wrecking Blow specifically.

Forcing your opponent to break CC is kind of a big deal, I don't know why you're downplaying Fossilize's strategic advantage. You can cast it while blocking while moving through your opponent, by the time they finish breaking free you're on the other side of them using whip or stone fist, forcing them to block because they can't afford to eat those nukes. Or skip Fossilize alltogether and exclusively stone fist. Forcing them into a single CC break is all you need to get on the offensive, and your CC has the advantage of being block-castable, theirs doesn't. Not only that, both those CC options restore your stamina, so you can block even more! Honestly the more I look at it, the more confused I am about what problem you're having, unless you just aren't slotting DK skills and are going full destro staff or something. In that case, you are getting hard countered due to your skill selection, and it is once again not an issue with Wrecking Blow in particular. Wrecking Blow users are constantly open to CC because they can't block and use their most powerful skill at the same time, while so many other builds, especially ranged magicka builds, don't have that issue.

blabafat · December 2015

Don't nerf it, fix it.

It's range (when it lands while being out of the range) and unbreakable CC (sometimes) need to be addressed

Recremen · December 2015

blabafat wrote: »

Don't nerf it, fix it.

It's range (when it lands while being out of the range) and unbreakable CC (sometimes) need to be addressed

This is the only issue I have with the ability, absolutely agree, though since I experience these issues with other abilities as well, I suspect it's more an issue with other parts of the code than the ability itself. I get the same issue with fear and jabs sometimes.

Armitas · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

Snare pairs well with absolutely everything, it's not just a Wrecking Blow issue, so once again we're back to things that aren't a problem with Wrecking Blow. You're also assuming they have the two-handed gap closer, and that they took the morph that applies a snare. Might be good for a gank build, but if you're fighting a ganker then we're back to being in a disadvantaged situation in general, not an issue with Wrecking Blow specifically.

Forcing your opponent to break CC is kind of a big deal, I don't know why you're downplaying Fossilize's strategic advantage. You can cast it while blocking while moving through your opponent, by the time they finish breaking free you're on the other side of them using whip or stone fist, forcing them to block because they can't afford to eat those nukes. Or skip Fossilize alltogether and exclusively stone fist. Forcing them into a single CC break is all you need to get on the offensive, and your CC has the advantage of being block-castable, theirs doesn't. Not only that, both those CC options restore your stamina, so you can block even more! Honestly the more I look at it, the more confused I am about what problem you're having, unless you just aren't slotting DK skills and are going full destro staff or something. In that case, you are getting hard countered due to your skill selection, and it is once again not an issue with Wrecking Blow in particular. Wrecking Blow users are constantly open to CC because they can't block and use their most powerful skill at the same time, while so many other builds, especially ranged magicka builds, don't have that issue.

It's true snare pairs with everything, however nothing else quite has such a Gestalt effect like WB and snare. It has the second highest base damage in the game and is suppose to be a risk reward ability in the same vein as Crystal shards...which shares it's base damage. However the ability to trivially remove all risk is not a slight thing as it would be with say molten whip because WB is a nuke.

I do assume that any relevant player would have a gap closer, but I don't assume they all use the same process. The best players that I have encountered with WB are combining it with a snare of their choice, it need not be stampede. Snares in this game are offensive, not defensive and this is due to spammable gap closers. This is why someone would choose stampede as an offensive morph despite the lower damage capacity if he is lacking the snare. The combination is out there and needs to be addressed in a satisfying way for all parties.

CC used to be a big deal before the champion system was added because it could hurt a players stamina pool. Leading up to that all important CC which they can't break free from followed by whatever nuke you got. Thanks to the champion system thats not possible anymore against a stam build. The only benefit CC has now is when you couple it with fast nukes which is absent in the DK. A DK has whip, which has the same base damage as deep slash in the tanking line, and runs into all the spell/elemental mitigation in the Champion system. Combining whip with a CC, even fist is not a threat. The stamina return on Fist is "nice" but it's self defeating. While easy to cast in a magicka build the return is necessarily small due to the smaller stamina pool. The stamina helps but it's not a strong enough factor to maintain your maneuverability and your ability to continually break free or block.

Everyone is open to CC because no one is blocking anymore...simply because aside from a handful of permablockers no one can. The have made the cost so high that you can't sustain a premptive block against instacast CC or any short term block casting. Though as you say a ranged caster can preemptivley block cast at range for absorbing that first hit, whatever it might be if his stam pool is full or at a safe level.

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

Snare pairs well with absolutely everything, it's not just a Wrecking Blow issue, so once again we're back to things that aren't a problem with Wrecking Blow. You're also assuming they have the two-handed gap closer, and that they took the morph that applies a snare. Might be good for a gank build, but if you're fighting a ganker then we're back to being in a disadvantaged situation in general, not an issue with Wrecking Blow specifically.

Forcing your opponent to break CC is kind of a big deal, I don't know why you're downplaying Fossilize's strategic advantage. You can cast it while blocking while moving through your opponent, by the time they finish breaking free you're on the other side of them using whip or stone fist, forcing them to block because they can't afford to eat those nukes. Or skip Fossilize alltogether and exclusively stone fist. Forcing them into a single CC break is all you need to get on the offensive, and your CC has the advantage of being block-castable, theirs doesn't. Not only that, both those CC options restore your stamina, so you can block even more! Honestly the more I look at it, the more confused I am about what problem you're having, unless you just aren't slotting DK skills and are going full destro staff or something. In that case, you are getting hard countered due to your skill selection, and it is once again not an issue with Wrecking Blow in particular. Wrecking Blow users are constantly open to CC because they can't block and use their most powerful skill at the same time, while so many other builds, especially ranged magicka builds, don't have that issue.

It's true snare pairs with everything, however nothing else quite has such a Gestalt effect like WB and snare. It has the second highest base damage in the game and is suppose to be a risk reward ability in the same vein as Crystal shards...which shares it's base damage. However the ability to trivially remove all risk is not a slight thing as it would be with say molten whip because WB is a nuke.

I do assume that any relevant player would have a gap closer, but I don't assume they all use the same process. The best players that I have encountered with WB are combining it with a snare of their choice, it need not be stampede. Snares in this game are offensive, not defensive and this is due to spammable gap closers. This is why someone would choose stampede as an offensive morph despite the lower damage capacity if he is lacking the snare. The combination is out there and needs to be addressed in a satisfying way for all parties.

CC used to be a big deal before the champion system was added because it could hurt a players stamina pool. Leading up to that all important CC which they can't break free from followed by whatever nuke you got. Thanks to the champion system thats not possible anymore against a stam build. The only benefit CC has now is when you couple it with fast nukes which is absent in the DK. A DK has whip, which has the same base damage as deep slash in the tanking line, and runs into all the spell/elemental mitigation in the Champion system. Combining whip with a CC, even fist is not a threat. The stamina return on Fist is "nice" but it's self defeating. While easy to cast in a magicka build the return is necessarily small due to the smaller stamina pool. The stamina helps but it's not a strong enough factor to maintain your maneuverability and your ability to continually break free or block.

Everyone is open to CC because no one is blocking anymore...simply because aside from a handful of permablockers no one can. The have made the cost so high that you can't sustain a premptive block against instacast CC or any short term block casting. Though as you say a ranged caster can preemptivley block cast at range for absorbing that first hit, whatever it might be if his stam pool is full or at a safe level.

CC Is still a big deal, it's just not an insta-win. It's going to depend on your individual burst damage, but you should be able to get at least (or ideally, at most) two phases of CC on a Wrecking Blow user, assuming they're just chain-casting instead of doing other techniques. The first phase should give you a time to go on the offensive, even if they got the drop on you, and the second one should come just 4 seconds later when their CC immunity wears off, at which point you should finish bursting them down. If you can't get a winning combination off in that time, then you're either outplayed or Magicka DK is way weaker than other Magicka builds, because I know most other classes have the tools to wreck in that scenario. And at that point it's not a "Wrecking Blow is OP" issue, it's a "please buff Magicka DK/change their tools to be better".

Now, you haven't told me what your build is, so I can't give specific advice, but if your whips/other damage skills aren't making a Wrecking Blow spammer think twice about their strategy then there are bigger issues here. Blocking wasn't nerfed so badly that you can't use it to blockcast, and just a few posts ago you were talking about holding block anyway while trying to get out of snares. My guess is you're either playing way too defensively and freezing up when you see the wrecking blows start coming, or are otherwise just not responding in a way that will give you a fighting chance. As a Magicka DK, you have almost every advantage stacked in your favor against a melee combatant (except an escape for when you're outnumbered), so if you practice your approach more and work on your strategy you should see some improvements.

Armitas · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

Snare pairs well with absolutely everything, it's not just a Wrecking Blow issue, so once again we're back to things that aren't a problem with Wrecking Blow. You're also assuming they have the two-handed gap closer, and that they took the morph that applies a snare. Might be good for a gank build, but if you're fighting a ganker then we're back to being in a disadvantaged situation in general, not an issue with Wrecking Blow specifically.

Forcing your opponent to break CC is kind of a big deal, I don't know why you're downplaying Fossilize's strategic advantage. You can cast it while blocking while moving through your opponent, by the time they finish breaking free you're on the other side of them using whip or stone fist, forcing them to block because they can't afford to eat those nukes. Or skip Fossilize alltogether and exclusively stone fist. Forcing them into a single CC break is all you need to get on the offensive, and your CC has the advantage of being block-castable, theirs doesn't. Not only that, both those CC options restore your stamina, so you can block even more! Honestly the more I look at it, the more confused I am about what problem you're having, unless you just aren't slotting DK skills and are going full destro staff or something. In that case, you are getting hard countered due to your skill selection, and it is once again not an issue with Wrecking Blow in particular. Wrecking Blow users are constantly open to CC because they can't block and use their most powerful skill at the same time, while so many other builds, especially ranged magicka builds, don't have that issue.

It's true snare pairs with everything, however nothing else quite has such a Gestalt effect like WB and snare. It has the second highest base damage in the game and is suppose to be a risk reward ability in the same vein as Crystal shards...which shares it's base damage. However the ability to trivially remove all risk is not a slight thing as it would be with say molten whip because WB is a nuke.

I do assume that any relevant player would have a gap closer, but I don't assume they all use the same process. The best players that I have encountered with WB are combining it with a snare of their choice, it need not be stampede. Snares in this game are offensive, not defensive and this is due to spammable gap closers. This is why someone would choose stampede as an offensive morph despite the lower damage capacity if he is lacking the snare. The combination is out there and needs to be addressed in a satisfying way for all parties.

CC used to be a big deal before the champion system was added because it could hurt a players stamina pool. Leading up to that all important CC which they can't break free from followed by whatever nuke you got. Thanks to the champion system thats not possible anymore against a stam build. The only benefit CC has now is when you couple it with fast nukes which is absent in the DK. A DK has whip, which has the same base damage as deep slash in the tanking line, and runs into all the spell/elemental mitigation in the Champion system. Combining whip with a CC, even fist is not a threat. The stamina return on Fist is "nice" but it's self defeating. While easy to cast in a magicka build the return is necessarily small due to the smaller stamina pool. The stamina helps but it's not a strong enough factor to maintain your maneuverability and your ability to continually break free or block.

Everyone is open to CC because no one is blocking anymore...simply because aside from a handful of permablockers no one can. The have made the cost so high that you can't sustain a premptive block against instacast CC or any short term block casting. Though as you say a ranged caster can preemptivley block cast at range for absorbing that first hit, whatever it might be if his stam pool is full or at a safe level.

The first phase should give you a time to go on the offensive, even if they got the drop on you, and the second one should come just 4 seconds later when their CC immunity wears off, at which point you should finish bursting them down. If you can't get a winning combination off in that time, then you're either outplayed or Magicka DK is way weaker than other Magicka builds, because I know most other classes have the tools to wreck in that scenario. .

It's bad man, really really bad. You have direct spell mitigation in the champion system, and direct elemental mitigation in the champion system plus the natural spell resistance from their medium armor. It still feels like the 50% spell mitigation nirnhoned era. They call whip a noodle, cause it's that poor. What you are saying is right in theory, burst them to put them on the defense so they start healing and defending instead of spamming WB but whip doesn't have the potential to cause that. Not without going full glass cannon, which will not compare in cannon or glass to a WB build. Whip has the base damage of deep slash from the tanking line, and thats an aoe, maim and a snare. It's indescribably poor in PvP.

Whip is suppose to be coupled with damage from our two dots but thats in an even worse shape due to it's ability to be purged and having 3 flat defenses in the champion tree, the additional one being the reduction of dot damage.

Oh yeah, I'm a traditional magicka DK, whip with sword and board, though I sometimes use heavy depending on what I expect to encounter.

WRX · December 2015

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

WRX · December 2015

Would also add, mendo offered tons of advice on how to avoid it.

But regardless, its much stronger than any other single target skill because of the heavy attacks, and after the cast, it lands immediately 1 second after.

That would be like if jabs landed all 4 hits, at once.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

Making it bashable would ruin it's effectiveness .. It would force everyone to use rally and executioner and then just use S&B which is just as effective if not more than WB.

*

leepalmer95 · December 2015

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

A bashable WB, you drunk?

It's a melee range skill so ofc everyone is going to bash it, it will then become useless.

Recremen · December 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Galvanize wrote: »

Walk through it, sorted.

What if they back strafe or have caltrops/slow down?

Then you just go out of range in another direction and make sure you have a snare immunity of some kind up. Or don't walk into caltrops. It's really no worse than jabs or crystal fragments or something, it's just a solid single-target skill.

Slows.. slow your travel speed down, so does blocking. Unless you want to be slowed by the snare and by blocking you will have to drop block, which means while you are trying to walk out of a snare you are getting hit from behind at full damage and being knocked down along the way. Some snares, like cinderstorm, continue to snare even after you leave it. On top of that all the snare removals cost stamina. I don't see how walking out of it would be a successful strategy in a magicka build because those nukes need to be avoided immediately, not some time after you make it out of a snare. You can't afford to eat those nukes while walking at a snails pace.

Depending on your class, you should have plenty of options for getting out of this situation.

Magicka DK. Walk me through it.

WB and block do not get along well when you just tap it. When the animation hits and when the skill actually makes a successful determination are not in sync. Also don't forget the WB user that is behind you isn't snared, nor will he be when the line comes with it's own heal+snare removal+snare immunity+reduced cost in addition to a gap closer that provides a snare within the same line.

Easy, just Fossilize, start running, and snare remove on your way out, or Fossilize, talons, dodge-roll out, really any combination of that. Alternatively, stay in the snare, talons, get behind them, and whip + talons all day long. They'll be forced to use their snare removal a bunch, which is a lot of time they're not casting Wrecking Blow. Send a few Stone Fists their way. If they don't have a reflect, they're gonna eat it or block (again, can't Wrecking Blow while doing either of those) and if they DO have a reflect, that's more time they're casting Not Wrecking Blow and dipping into their (probably low) Magicka reserves. Or stamina reserves if it's the sword-and-board reflect. Of course, as a Magicka DK, you can just reflect it right back at them and they get hit anyway. Lots of great options!

They will immediately break free of fossilize and stampede you reapplying that snare and closing any gap you make. It costs you sprint stamina, snare removal stamina, loss of block, time not attacking, and magicka for a fossilize that will be immediately broken out of. Your opponent sacrifices nothing because he can close the gap, do damage, and resnare in 1 button. You can dodge roll once, IF you dodge roll through him. If you dodge away from him you will almost certainly be hit because the distance check has already been made. Succeeding however won't matter because you haven't made any distance by rolling through him and you are not rolling again in a magicka build due to the increased cost. What you listed will get you out of the situation for certain, but then what, the situation is immediately reset with 1 stampede and you just sacrificed a lot to get out of it. They sacrificed nothing, they now have CC immunity and you won't have the stamina or capacity to repeat the process and break free from any WB knockdowns.

Unless your opponent is really bad you are not getting behind them while snared. That is the whole reason WB users have combo'd snare with WB, so people can't get behind them. WB can still hit you in Talons.

Snare pairs well with absolutely everything, it's not just a Wrecking Blow issue, so once again we're back to things that aren't a problem with Wrecking Blow. You're also assuming they have the two-handed gap closer, and that they took the morph that applies a snare. Might be good for a gank build, but if you're fighting a ganker then we're back to being in a disadvantaged situation in general, not an issue with Wrecking Blow specifically.

Forcing your opponent to break CC is kind of a big deal, I don't know why you're downplaying Fossilize's strategic advantage. You can cast it while blocking while moving through your opponent, by the time they finish breaking free you're on the other side of them using whip or stone fist, forcing them to block because they can't afford to eat those nukes. Or skip Fossilize alltogether and exclusively stone fist. Forcing them into a single CC break is all you need to get on the offensive, and your CC has the advantage of being block-castable, theirs doesn't. Not only that, both those CC options restore your stamina, so you can block even more! Honestly the more I look at it, the more confused I am about what problem you're having, unless you just aren't slotting DK skills and are going full destro staff or something. In that case, you are getting hard countered due to your skill selection, and it is once again not an issue with Wrecking Blow in particular. Wrecking Blow users are constantly open to CC because they can't block and use their most powerful skill at the same time, while so many other builds, especially ranged magicka builds, don't have that issue.

It's true snare pairs with everything, however nothing else quite has such a Gestalt effect like WB and snare. It has the second highest base damage in the game and is suppose to be a risk reward ability in the same vein as Crystal shards...which shares it's base damage. However the ability to trivially remove all risk is not a slight thing as it would be with say molten whip because WB is a nuke.

I do assume that any relevant player would have a gap closer, but I don't assume they all use the same process. The best players that I have encountered with WB are combining it with a snare of their choice, it need not be stampede. Snares in this game are offensive, not defensive and this is due to spammable gap closers. This is why someone would choose stampede as an offensive morph despite the lower damage capacity if he is lacking the snare. The combination is out there and needs to be addressed in a satisfying way for all parties.

CC used to be a big deal before the champion system was added because it could hurt a players stamina pool. Leading up to that all important CC which they can't break free from followed by whatever nuke you got. Thanks to the champion system thats not possible anymore against a stam build. The only benefit CC has now is when you couple it with fast nukes which is absent in the DK. A DK has whip, which has the same base damage as deep slash in the tanking line, and runs into all the spell/elemental mitigation in the Champion system. Combining whip with a CC, even fist is not a threat. The stamina return on Fist is "nice" but it's self defeating. While easy to cast in a magicka build the return is necessarily small due to the smaller stamina pool. The stamina helps but it's not a strong enough factor to maintain your maneuverability and your ability to continually break free or block.

Everyone is open to CC because no one is blocking anymore...simply because aside from a handful of permablockers no one can. The have made the cost so high that you can't sustain a premptive block against instacast CC or any short term block casting. Though as you say a ranged caster can preemptivley block cast at range for absorbing that first hit, whatever it might be if his stam pool is full or at a safe level.

The first phase should give you a time to go on the offensive, even if they got the drop on you, and the second one should come just 4 seconds later when their CC immunity wears off, at which point you should finish bursting them down. If you can't get a winning combination off in that time, then you're either outplayed or Magicka DK is way weaker than other Magicka builds, because I know most other classes have the tools to wreck in that scenario. .

It's bad man, really really bad. You have direct spell mitigation in the champion system, and direct elemental mitigation in the champion system plus the natural spell resistance from their medium armor. It still feels like the 50% spell mitigation nirnhoned era. They call whip a noodle, cause it's that poor. What you are saying is right in theory, burst them to put them on the defense so they start healing and defending instead of spamming WB but whip doesn't have the potential to cause that. Not without going full glass cannon, which will not compare in cannon or glass to a WB build. Whip has the base damage of deep slash from the tanking line, and thats an aoe, maim and a snare. It's indescribably poor in PvP.

Whip is suppose to be coupled with damage from our two dots but thats in an even worse shape due to it's ability to be purged and having 3 flat defenses in the champion tree, the additional one being the reduction of dot damage.

Oh yeah, I'm a traditional magicka DK, whip with sword and board, though I sometimes use heavy depending on what I expect to encounter.

Oookay yeah, there it is. If its base damage is that low then they should absolutely reconsider some of the whip's design. I mean sure, you can block cast it, and have the advantage of not dipping into your stamina pool, and granted it doesn't have a wind-up time, but it also doesn't CC, is melee range, and if someone puts their champion points right they could have decent mitigation against it at this point. I personally wouldn't mind it getting a bit of a buff, I just wouldn't want it to hit quite as hard as frags or Wrecking Blow.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

A bashable WB, you drunk?

It's a melee range skill so ofc everyone is going to bash it, it will then become useless.

It was bashable once upon a time in a ESO ... Almost no one used it.

*

Recremen · December 2015

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

What's this about a full heavy attack? I'm pretty sure you don't count as charging the heavy attack until after the Wrecking Blow lands, which if you're a WB spammer you are missing a huge chunk of time not casting WB. Unless I've been inputting wrong this whole time and am a dreadful scrubmunster??

Poxheart · December 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

A bashable WB, you drunk?

It's a melee range skill so ofc everyone is going to bash it, it will then become useless.

Some of us used WB back when it was bashable and did just fine with it. The change was needless and only helps bads.

Poxheart · December 2015

Recremen wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

What's this about a full heavy attack? I'm pretty sure you don't count as charging the heavy attack until after the Wrecking Blow lands, which if you're a WB spammer you are missing a huge chunk of time not casting WB. Unless I've been inputting wrong this whole time and am a dreadful scrubmunster??

Click button to activate WB, then hold down right mouse button. Congratulations, you have just de-synced WB and both skills hit at about the same time.

Recremen · December 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

What's this about a full heavy attack? I'm pretty sure you don't count as charging the heavy attack until after the Wrecking Blow lands, which if you're a WB spammer you are missing a huge chunk of time not casting WB. Unless I've been inputting wrong this whole time and am a dreadful scrubmunster??

Click button to activate WB, then hold down right mouse button. Congratulations, you have just de-synced WB and both skills hit at about the same time.

This sounds fishy, as I've experimented with the input on this extensively and never achieved any such result. Perhaps something broke in a recent patch, who knows, but that sounds more like one of those unpredictable server-client issues, like how people used to be able to spam Meteor in lag.

Poxheart · December 2015

It's 100% repeatable, no lag required.

WRX · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

Making it bashable would ruin it's effectiveness .. It would force everyone to use rally and executioner and then just use S&B which is just as effective if not more than WB.

*

Making it bashable would mean you can't sit around and spam it to all hell, yes. However I think it would be plenty effective if they player was good.

Regardless, I can say with 99% certainty that they won't add that back to the game.

Recremen · December 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

WB is very powerful, along with the entire 2H line.

Its range should be brought down 1m and I personally think 5m would be best. OR, make it bashable. The fact that it isnt bashable is dumb. Make heavy attacks bashable too. These mechanics added player skill.

And, with the fact that you can get a full heavy off in the same cast time, it really makes the skill feel like it has no cast times after the first one. Fix this.

What's this about a full heavy attack? I'm pretty sure you don't count as charging the heavy attack until after the Wrecking Blow lands, which if you're a WB spammer you are missing a huge chunk of time not casting WB. Unless I've been inputting wrong this whole time and am a dreadful scrubmunster??

Click button to activate WB, then hold down right mouse button. Congratulations, you have just de-synced WB and both skills hit at about the same time.

Okay, I know the thing you're talking about now, it just happens to be something I specifically avoid because of how terrible it is. As far as I am able to discern (your own testing may vary), all this does is delay the graphical update for damage, which has been a problem since Imperial City if I recall correctly. It does not actually delay when the damage registers as far as my addons are able to tell me. I timed it to go off during a troll's Tremor attack, and it kept getting a hit of Tremor off in between the wrecking blow hit and the heavy attack hit. Peculiarly, these numbers also delayed showing up, but there's no mistaking the order of their occurrence. So the only thing this has going for it really is that your opponent might not know they're getting hit by both until it's too late. For all I can tell, though, the animation issue only appears client-side, as I remember bringing up how weird it looked to my guildies while we were testing Imperial City and they all said it looked normal. Either way, yes, definitely undesirable behavior, it should get fixed. Even worst-case scenario, though, it's not letting you get off extra attacks in a smaller amount of time, it's just delaying all the damage until both animations are done.

Jahosefat · December 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

I've had the distance double while fighting one person in the IC in a district with no other people. The skill 's range is buggy as hell.

Good to know!

Poxheart wrote: »

Some of us used WB back when it was bashable and did just fine with it. The change was needless and only helps bads.

I remember you dropping people in 1.5 with WB on your DK (myself included). Might even have a video of it somewhere

myrrrorb14_ESO · December 2015

WB is crazy. Was tinkering around, leveling up weapon skill lines, and when I looked at the tool tips damage I laughed my butt off.

It's a ton more damage than my class abilities, It's actually noticeably higher than snipe! And it self empowers and animation cancels.

No wonder people use it so much in pvp.

frozywozy · December 2015

WRX wrote: »

Would also add, mendo offered tons of advice on how to avoid it.

But regardless, its much stronger than any other single target skill because of the heavy attacks, and after the cast, it lands immediately 1 second after.

That would be like if jabs landed all 4 hits, at once.

Once Stam DK and Stam sorc has an instant direct damaging stamina skill, I wouldn't mind making Wrecking bow bashable, until that happens there is no reason to make it work that way. Otherwise you just make surprise attack and jabs even better than they already are.