Token system for Monster Helms (in addition to Gold/AP)

jrkhan · December 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

[*] The full Pledge/Trial PVE'ers are benefitting less, but are finally offered a way to get their Monster set in a foreseeable way (instead of the uncertain RNG that can last forever) and will get some AP from needing to stay anyway in PVP to get to level 7 (for all abilities)

I don't make hundreds of thousands of gold just by running dungeons.
I do get hundreds of thousands of AP just by pvp'ing.

What I'm complaining about, is that once the vendor goes in, the WORST way to get the helm (in terms of reliability), is to run the dungeon that drops it.

It encourages gold/ap farming - and it will be harder to find groups willing to farm for helm drops.
Again, I think it's great that gold and ap can be used to purchase the helms - it just is going to make quite a but of content obsolete.
Get undaunted 10, then you are better off never running a dungeon again.

Depends on how expensive the Vendor will be.

I would expect that doing Pledges is ON AVERAGE the best way to get Monster sets... and gaining AP/Gold is ON AVERAGE more expensive/time consuming than Pledges !!!

The trade off is that you get at least the set you want.

You always have to work for it. But doing endless Pledges and still getting not your desired set, as so many posts describe, has nothing to do with hard work anymore. That is simply frustrating. And ZOS offers now a way out for this.

There is no reasonable value for helms that does not make farming gold/ap more attractive than a lotto ticket.
Sure, I can still see people running daily pledges - but if you can make let's say 25k an hour (with the flexibility of buying other things) you can know for sure you'll have your drop in 20 hours (I can't see them going higher than half a million gold or a million AP)

I'm just saying, I'm highly unlikely to ever again do 'helm farms' unless they introduce a token system.
Maybe that's intended.

I guess it depends on your risk aversion.

jrkhan · December 2015

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Don't know why everyone is saying it should be a token system and we need xyz because it isn't ever going to happen. We know a new system is coming so kind of pointless keep saying we need a token system. Tokens aren't right at all, all you'd do is farm spindelclutch over and over for tokens and be done with it. Can't tell me you'd ever go to the prison even if it offered double tokens now.

If it wasn't clear, the suggestion was to have the token be specific to that helm.
If you want Molag Kenna helm, you'd only get the token from Molag Kenna.
The token system has already been implemented
This isn't asking for new functionality.

Saying that something is 'never going to happen' when something very similar is 'already happening' doesn't make sense to me.

jakeedmundson · December 2015

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

How about we just get all if them at all levels and types put in you're bank (without using bank slots) as soon as you create a character!
You want something you should have to work for it, unbelievable how many people want everything handed to them.

Are you being serious right now?....
again with this "work for it" crap?

Apparently you don't understand.... many, many, many people have been "working" for the same gear for months and months that others got on their first run/first gold key. (which i'm assuming you were one of those "first run" kids)

I've literally spent almost every day of the last 2-3 months doing dailies and helmet farming and found nothing but gold, soul gems, and a random blue/purple item. (if i'm lucky i can turn that into a temper)
So i've essentially been playing this game for months and not been able to progress in any way. Super fun....You wanna tell me after all that time that i didn't "work" hard enough? It isn't about work... its about luck and this game abuses the hell out of that term.

Plus, i'm guessing they will want 100k - 1M gold for a helm?... maybe if it was like 10-20k i could understand since the trait you get will prob be random....but i know they will put some ridiculous number on it...

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

There is no token system for helms at all. Pledges have nothing to do with helms. Do MK on hard mode. It drops a lot more I kid you not but it's all luck. I'm currently running a group again and again through it now. Between 4 of us it's dropped 9 times but one guy in the group has had nowt. But hard mode is chucking them out at us. About 1 in 3 runs. Hard mode tbh isn't really any different except the waves go faster. With the right group and I mean the right group any helm is easy to get. Most dungeons now take 25 mins tops. Prison about 45-60 depending on how many times you die in 2nd boss. WGT an easy 30 mins. You just need the right group for it and they are easy to get. I have them all but I'm bar engine guardian shoulders and the mephala helm (don't care for them) but I've put in about 1200hrs into the game. Just stick the time in and you'll get any helm in a nights plays.

jrkhan · December 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

How about we just get all if them at all levels and types put in you're bank (without using bank slots) as soon as you create a character!
You want something you should have to work for it, unbelievable how many people want everything handed to them.

Are you being serious right now?....
again with this "work for it" crap?

Apparently you don't understand.... many, many, many people have been "working" for the same gear for months and months that others got on their first run/first gold key. (which i'm assuming you were one of those "first run" kids)

I've literally spent almost every day of the last 2-3 months doing dailies and helmet farming and found nothing but gold, soul gems, and a random blue/purple item. (if i'm lucky i can turn that into a temper)
So i've essentially been playing this game for months and not been able to progress in any way. Super fun....You wanna tell me after all that time that i didn't "work" hard enough? It isn't about work... its about luck and this game abuses the hell out of that term.

Plus, i'm guessing they will want 100k - 1M gold for a helm?... maybe if it was like 10-20k i could understand since the trait you get will prob be random....but i know they will put some ridiculous number on it...

Yep, totally agree.
The problem is, game designers think 'the chances of someone not getting the helm 10x in a row is only 5% "

But of course, the guy who's run it 9 times (1 out of 20 people) with nothing to show for it, STILL has no better odds of finding the item on his 10th run. It's still a ~25% chance.

On top of that, 95% of the player base has moved on - so your odds of finding a group that wants to keep farming goes down.

It's not a good place to be in.
I understand that randomness is always a factor - but it's downright discouraging when some players go though 1/10th the effort for equal rewards.

WillhelmBlack · December 2015

It should be done with the Laurels. I have loads of them and nothing to do with them, can't be traded so I guess that's what ZOS is planning. Makes sense.

jrkhan · December 2015

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

There is no token system for helms at all. Pledges have nothing to do with helms. Do MK on hard mode. It drops a lot more I kid you not but it's all luck. I'm currently running a group again and again through it now. Between 4 of us it's dropped 9 times but one guy in the group has had nowt. But hard mode is chucking them out at us. About 1 in 3 runs. Hard mode tbh isn't really any different except the waves go faster. With the right group and I mean the right group any helm is easy to get. Most dungeons now take 25 mins tops. Prison about 45-60 depending on how many times you die in 2nd boss. WGT an easy 30 mins. You just need the right group for it and they are easy to get. I have them all but I'm bar engine guardian shoulders and the mephala helm (don't care for them) but I've put in about 1200hrs into the game. Just stick the time in and you'll get any helm in a nights plays.

There are systems in for having tokens drop off bosses which open chests with specific loot tables.
That's all you need. One additional chest/loot table per dungeon - using the same token system that IC uses.

Guy, I get how random number generators and basic statistics work.

What you are saying is correct for 95% of players.
95% of players will get the helm they are looking for in a nights play.
You are in that 95%.

There is no skill or group composition that changes the dynamic: As players randomly get the helm they are looking for, the remaining unlucky member is left looking for a new group with nothing to show for their effort.

Imagine you had put in the same amount of time, but gotten no drops?
Why is this a fate you'd wish upon a fellow gamer?

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

I've never had that issue. All of the helms we've gone for in the group. This is the same 4 people since say one. Have always got them eventually. I don't have mephala as it's useless and I cba with it. But they were all ground out one by one. We all have MK now. All this running for 80 runs etc is crap. No one has that bad a time. Think our worst is about 40 runs of DSC. As most people did. ZOS probably reduced it as everyone went for it at once.

Tyr · December 2015

jrkhan wrote: »

Having run a dungeon 30+ times for 0 helm drops is frustrating.
To have to then fork over a ton of Gold/AP, with nothing to show for those 20+ runs is somewhat... degrading?

Why not do a token system similar to IC token drops for dungeons?

So they are adding an NPC in the next DLC that will sell these rare drops for gold or AP. The NPC will have Random sets from week to week.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see a token system until after they rework gear sets when they remove veteran ranks.

Spearshard · December 2015

Ahahaha...ahahahaha. 1 in 3 runs....helm being thrown out...oh that would be funny if it wasn't painful how long I've been just trying to get nerien. I've just decided to say f it. I don't even bother with pledges anymore, all I get is soul gems and decon trash. If I get a shoulder, it's mephala and Lord warden. I've gotten 6 shoulders worth keeping in about 6 months worth of gold keys. 3 skoria, 2 bad weight and trait, 1 kena, perfect weight, good trait, and a maw of the infernal, saving bc why not. Not one sign of nerien, in the chests or any of the myriad of runs for the helm
Ever.

Gidorick · December 2015

The token system should be Dwemer Coins. 'Cause lore!

jakeedmundson · December 2015

Just a fun update since i posted here yesterday....

last night i ran vdarkshade and vCoH 3 times each... consecutively (so 6 total) Had a good group of friends that were willing to run these over and over with me so i could finally get something.... but nope. not a thing.

This is realistically.... somewhere between my 20th-30th run of each one of these dungeons (i'm not exaggerating at all).... no monster helm.

I've gotten two helmets to drop while i was on v14 and v15 groups before the scaled dungeons.... got a v14 nightflame helm (but i'm not a healer... ) and a v15 bloodspawn helm.... thanks, i guess? It's the only two i've ever found and I still use the bloodspawn helm....

The shoulders are a whole other issue.... literally dozens of keys with no shoulders... and i've only found ONE mercenary motif.....
zos.... wtf? If people can get these things in less than a week... and i'm stuck here after multiple months of getting nothing... what's my incentive??
I gain nothing and it makes the game boring and frustrating.

Praeficere · December 2015

I'd rather the helmet always drop when you complete the dungeon in hard mode but of course, that's too often - not enough RNG to keep players running dungeons they find mundane and mind numbing.

jakeedmundson · December 2015

Praeficere wrote: »

I'd rather the helmet always drop when you complete the dungeon in hard mode but of course, that's too often - not enough RNG to keep players running dungeons they find mundane and mind numbing.

You could probably have a 50% drop rate and still have it be mind numbing..... There is still a good chance it wouldn't even drop... and if it DID drop you still would most likely get a crap trait anyway.

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

Kena helm drop again in same group but on hard mode. 2 gold keys today too (gave f all) strange. WGT is spitting helms out at our group in the past week. But run each dungeon one by one and I guarantee you'll get one. This isn't plain Rng is sets on which one will drop for you until yu change to another and get it. Has to. This is now the 11th Kena helm between the same 4 people in 3 days I kid you not.

jakeedmundson · December 2015

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Kena helm drop again in same group but on hard mode. 2 gold keys today too (gave f all) strange. WGT is spitting helms out at our group in the past week. But run each dungeon one by one and I guarantee you'll get one. This isn't plain Rng is sets on which one will drop for you until yu change to another and get it. Has to. This is now the 11th Kena helm between the same 4 people in 3 days I kid you not.

Why would anyone run each dungeon 1 by 1? .... i have literally no use for any other helms than the 2 i'm trying to farm.

robkrush · December 2015

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

Elebeth · December 2015

I'm looking like crazy for source of what I'm about to say, and I know I saw it somewhere (if anyone knows the exact place where it was mentioned please post it); but there was a token system planed to come out with Undaunted monster sets.

I remember that in some pre-release talks it was said that dungeon bosses will drop legendary crafting materials associated with them (eg. Malubeth would drop his unique crafting mat, Spawn of Mephala his unique crafting mat...) and after you would get X amount of those materials you would go to the crafting station and craft your own head and/or shoulders.

Presumably in weight and with trait that you would want. Why this system was scraped, I have no idea...

Now again, I'm 99% sure that that was the case but I can't find the source atm; I even have a image of one of those legendary crafting mats in my head (was it data mining?) so if anyone finds the link before me, please post it!

sickboy2808 · December 2015

Wollust what server u on? I would like to run COH a few times again but not for helm as im a Tank

jrkhan · December 2015

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

jrkhan · December 2015

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Kena helm drop again in same group but on hard mode. 2 gold keys today too (gave f all) strange. WGT is spitting helms out at our group in the past week. But run each dungeon one by one and I guarantee you'll get one. This isn't plain Rng is sets on which one will drop for you until yu change to another and get it. Has to. This is now the 11th Kena helm between the same 4 people in 3 days I kid you not.

You are funny

You seem to think that small sample sets and anecdotes somehow disprove statistics.
Sure, I can flip a coin 10 times and get heads all 10 times. That doesn't prove that it's a weighted coin.

hrothbern · December 2015

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

The question is "downside for who?"
Buying that one helm is better for the player that justs want that one helm
Tokens are better for players that want many helms/Monster sets
Buying gives ZOS more insight in practical demand (outside forums) and better control over what they make available

robkrush · December 2015

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

I get what you guys are saying i just don't think its that hard to come up with 250k gold to buy the helm you want then be done with it.

Ive got nothing against the "token system" but i think it's unnecessary.

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

What I'm saying is. Run each dungeon one by one and only one. I guarantee you'll get a helm. Then repeat but take that helm giving dungeon out of the cycle and you'll get another and repeat. You'll get them in no time. Seems to work for us. Once you've got them once they become more common. Give it a go. May add some variety over running the same crap over and over. It has worked for my usual group.

jrkhan · December 2015

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

What I'm saying is. Run each dungeon one by one and only one. I guarantee you'll get a helm. Then repeat but take that helm giving dungeon out of the cycle and you'll get another and repeat. You'll get them in no time. Seems to work for us. Once you've got them once they become more common. Give it a go. May add some variety over running the same crap over and over. It has worked for my usual group.

I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful.
I once read that retired first baseman Jason Giambi used to wear a gold thong in order to break out of slumps.
Perhaps, I shall try to dye my leg armor gold before running the dungeon to guarantee I get a helm.

jakeedmundson · December 2015

robkrush wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

I get what you guys are saying i just don't think its that hard to come up with 250k gold to buy the helm you want then be done with it.

Ive got nothing against the "token system" but i think it's unnecessary.

Sorry but i'd never spend 250k on a helm with a random friggin trait. If that's what it will cost than they really aren't solving any problems are they?

robkrush · December 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

I get what you guys are saying i just don't think its that hard to come up with 250k gold to buy the helm you want then be done with it.

Ive got nothing against the "token system" but i think it's unnecessary.

Sorry but i'd never spend 250k on a helm with a random friggin trait. If that's what it will cost than they really aren't solving any problems are they?

Lol. As a tank who was forced to wear Footmans with Exploration through 1.6 I can promise you can, and will, wear bloodspawn or engine guardian with any trait. This isn't charity. You are gonna have to earn your gold and spend it wisely.

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

Only good gold now is Craglorn farming nirns and gold tempers. I'd rather grind dungeon and get the helms over spending 3hrs to get about 6 nirns and maybe 6 tempers at absolute best. That about 7-9 dungeons depending on which ones your doing. Plus you'll get gold, items etc at the same time. I'm done with craglorn. Made 1m farming mats in 2 weeks of it but never going back...ever. no money in motifs now either unless you pvp and use AP for them. Even they are dropping in price. Shields are now under 100k from 200+ a few weeks ago.

robkrush · December 2015

Lol. What do you guys expect. To be given everything?

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Only good gold now is Craglorn farming nirns and gold tempers. I'd rather grind dungeon and get the helms over spending 3hrs to get about 6 nirns and maybe 6 tempers at absolute best. That about 7-9 dungeons depending on which ones your doing. Plus you'll get gold, items etc at the same time. I'm done with craglorn. Made 1m farming mats in 2 weeks of it but never going back...ever. no money in motifs now either unless you pvp and use AP for them. Even they are dropping in price. Shields are now under 100k from 200+ a few weeks ago.

The money is in v15-16 mats. A farmer can make 100k a day easy. A normal person makes prolly 10-20k a day if they arent stuck trying to do end game vet content every night. This IS a MMO so some grinding is required. We cant just run daily vet pledges and expect to progress.

jakeedmundson · December 2015

robkrush wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

jrkhan wrote: »

robkrush wrote: »

You guys are going to be able to buy monster helms with gold or AP so i don't see why we need a token system. You only need 1, maybe 2, helms so it's not like you'll need to buy 20 things. Save your gold for the 1 helm you REALLY want and let this idea go.

You missed the point.
If you want to farm gold /ap for your helm fine.
It just shouldn't be a more reliable way then running the dungeon.

Can you come up with an actual downside for the token drop?
There are several benefits.

I get what you guys are saying i just don't think its that hard to come up with 250k gold to buy the helm you want then be done with it.

Ive got nothing against the "token system" but i think it's unnecessary.

Sorry but i'd never spend 250k on a helm with a random friggin trait. If that's what it will cost than they really aren't solving any problems are they?

Lol. As a tank who was forced to wear Footmans with Exploration through 1.6 I can promise you can, and will, wear bloodspawn or engine guardian with any trait. This isn't charity. You are gonna have to earn your gold and spend it wisely.

No $417 it's not charity...

And if you have nothing against it... then why are you even in this discussion? you're not for it... but you don't care if its implemented or not?
All i'm saying is that for many players... a token system would work better than a gold trade system for pve.

If you pve, you have to stop doing the things you enjoy to waste time farming for hundreds of thousands of gold.
If you pvp, you don't stop doing anything you normally do.... you gain AP by doing what you enjoy. (not to mention that some people have literally millions of AP saved up)