Docmandu wrote: »

And why do you think they even considered patching this?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/124447/no-bop-trials-items-at-all
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/related/2cs00z/so_is_trials_bind_on_equip_being_patched/

I guess you chose to ignore the words "was not intended".

Erondil wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion about this system being unfair towards pvp players, which is not the case.

1) pvp players need to do many gold keys (=pve content) to get the monster shoulders, this is the same for all players.

2) anyone can buy the monster mask (pvp and pve) because you can get it with AP or gold.

3) you dont make any gold with pvp, it only costs a lot of gold.

1) undaunted= 20 Minutes a day for a month or so Alliance rank- half a year(not 100% sure how long it took first person to get it) continuous pvp

2) you can also get it with doing AP which you passively get while playing, i dont earn tokens doing pledges/trials/vMA/vDSA and then spend them on helms,

3)you make lots of alliance points passively which you can then sell for gold, also PvE costs gold nowadays because everything is BoP. all the new PvE sets from IC and Orsinium are all bound.

Dont get me wrong im not asking them to take any of those things away from the pure PvPers, im asking them to ADD something for the pure PvErs ,they need to find a balance otherwise people will leave. and none of us want that.

and for the record i do both PvE and PvP.

I also do both pvp and pve and I dont think they take anything away from pve players in any way.

You make AP by doing pvp but the siege (and new forward camps) also cost AP, the tri-stat pots and purple buff food arent exactly cheap either.

PVE is a lot cheaper in my experience, you can use normal v15 pots which drops from mobs and cheaper blue buff food. The mobs also drop a lot of stuff which you can sell to vendors, or you can decon it and sell the materials. You can make easy gold just by selling v15 silks/ingots/leather.

If you make 50k AP for example, there is a conversion rate of 1:4 so thats only 12.5k gold. That roughly translates to 30x v15 mats. The disadvantage for the pvp player is that he also need to buy tri-stat pots and purple buff food with that 12.5k income.

In pve its a lot easier to make consistent gold just by doing dungeons/farming mobs, in pvp it can be a lot harder to make consistent AP if there's a 50-man zerg roaming around for example.

Sure, you make AP but you can't even bring consumables into this, as PvE'ers use equal amounts as pvp'ers (I burn roughly 200-400 potions a day atm trying to improve my MSA scores and theorytesting mechanics in there). I can't use 'normal' potions the same way you can't so we can't really discriminate either on consumables once again, we're both equal. Yes we can sell and decon more materials than you can, and this is a bonus, but most of the time I find this bill goes to my armour repair, but yes we still make a small profit from this, nothing compared to the price of 250k AP though. Moreover, I don't get huge volumes of mats from PvE, maybe 10 from a maelstrom run and no gold dropping, it's a small amount more than the rare PvP mail granted but still? As for group content, it's slightly more and the gold can sometimes cover the cost of repair if with a good group. I can agree that old PvE, when trials dropped worth while PvE content drops that people will buy was as you say, consistent gold. Nowerdays the picture is very different from how you paint it. My only income is my crafting writs which I do daily, everything else in my day is a loss of which I can assure you.

If you really want to compare trying to get the highest score in vMA to pvp you need to compare it to an Emp push.
Both situations revolve around getting the highest score against players that are trying to do the same thing. This is what makes it expensive, not the content itself.

If you are comparing those two then, PvPer's get a ridiculous advantage as they actually earn huge amounts of AP going for emp, whereas in VMSA I get literally no sellable reward or money income (I get money loss to repairs) to help me buy these shoulders... Yeah, this seems fair and balanced as always.

Pretty much all the AP I make goes for potions or Willpower/agility set (only drops in PvE, sells for 100-300k gold depending on the set and the trait). I made 1.4 Millions AP since last reset (10 days ago) and beside an Akavari motif still not sold (500k AP for 130k gold), I have... 9k gold lol

You have to farm willpower, that's not PvE , which is a chore for PvE'ers and PvP'ers alike, moreover I probably burn equal if not more consumables in MSA vet so I think we're equal on that one I'm afraid. I wouldn't have made any money and simply lost it if it wasn't for my crafting writs, VMSA is a constant loss in money for both repairs, potions and no sellable reward. The same goes for trials as loot doesn't matter nowerdays there, and most vet dungeons as it's all BoP (However, you do make a little money here from decon mats, as you get far more from these than anywhere else in enjoyable PvE content).

EDIT: Also comon dude, we have all discussed many a time how imperial city was a PvP zone in it's design but appealed to very few, it's not a PvE zone, if anything it's a grinding zone

Well for me a zone where 99% of ennemies are mobs is a PvE zone (and you get all the rewards from mobs, sure you can steal TV of others but they had to kill mobs, not players to get it). Its not a endgame challenging content for sure, but its PvE not PvP. I wont make assumptions about the gold you get/ loose from vMA because I dont have the dlc so i will believe what you say. But why do you need thise hold anyway? All the gear and mats you need drop in PvE, PvP gear is completely useless atm. Imo they should make PvE set ms BoE so we can buy them from PvE players, and PvE players can gain easy gold if they want to.

If you define the act of farming something in a PvP intended zone as PvE I have to agree to disagree. Farming is not something you do 24/7 for fun but simply for money, so I couldn't compare this to true PvE content regardless. When you mentioned emp that's something that is long but is enjoyable, farming can't be put into the same bracket as emp as the goals are completely different (and yes some people like farming but very very few do it 24/7 as it's not really PvE or PvP content despite you killing environment generated mobs with the risk of PvP). Continuing... Because in PvP you guys earn AP for what you enjoy doing, which can yield money, or in the future, sets (and these sets are convenience, although they have said they will be on a rotation, you can simply wonder down and pick them up, not farm them with lots of B/S RnG). In PvE we're not earning anything here, largely just losing it, and sure we have access to the items that will be sold by this vendor but you have a 100% chance of getting the item as long as it's on rotation, we have nothing of the sort in PvE and generate no additional income on the whole for what we enjoy doing. AP is flexible and can make money, that in itself is better than anything that PvE'ers get atm, any decon mats I get (very few) have gone into making sets, often then without writs I would've been farming or buying materials as PvP'ers must have to to make their sets. I like your latter suggestion and this is yet another problem. The main issue that PvE players have is that so far: a] We have to farm for an RnG drop, it's not on rotation, it's a chance. b] we have to use broken gold keys to have a chance at shoulders pieces, you will not, it's on rotation, click and collect.c] you get an option to choose whether to select to buy an item or not, we choose to farm it but it's luck if we get what we want, we don't just play the waiting game. d] Although we can buy these new items for gold as I have already explained, most of us are just losing money here, with AP it's like a bonus for you playing the content you enjoy, for us, unless we farm AP (it's said to be costly these set items), we have to farm... willpower? anything to get money because it will be just as expensive and we're not playing content we enjoy.

As a player who does play PvP time to time I am really not trying to seek and destroy this new system against PvP players... we just want equality between the two. As it's looking now I desperately need to farm cash or AP (neither of which are hugely fun for me as I would rather be competing and getting my VMSA weps) in order to get a certainty at buying these shoulders or helms.

As I said previously, if we were to make the system 100% fair and equal this is what it would look like: You would be able to buy RnG heads where you cannot see the trait or armor type prior to purchase but simply the set on the vendor (this is what it's like in PvE, we choose a dungeon for a set head, it's all RnG from that point onwards). Instead of buying shoulders you would be buying gold keys, no choice on what you get or if you'll even get it, same as in PvE and you would be able to purchase one of these keys per character per day, same as in PvE with gold keys, maybe you get double purchases on weekends like we get WGT and ICP gold keys (2 per these dailies).

Like I said elsewhere, Add pvp sets to dungeons as a bonus (not replacing) drop, everybody wins.

Sharmony wrote: »

Thornen wrote: »

Like I said elsewhere, Add pvp sets to dungeons as a bonus (not replacing) drop, everybody wins.

That's not even close to fair, we don't want to go PvP to farm PvP sets, it's as a break from PvE or to farm skill lines, nothing can be done under this system to make a fair 'trade drops for drops' as PvE players have no use for garbage like shield breaker in PvE.

Well this way you could either pvp or pve for either drops wich in my eyes is a win for all...Milk has been spilt stop crying and look for meaningful options...

Personaly I'm not BOTHERING to level Assault and Support, because REASONs, and the first idiot that tell me that I MUST have that spell from the assault or support skill line will recieve a mental slap in his elitist face.

Thornen wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Thornen wrote: »

Like I said elsewhere, Add pvp sets to dungeons as a bonus (not replacing) drop, everybody wins.

That's not even close to fair, we don't want to go PvP to farm PvP sets, it's as a break from PvE or to farm skill lines, nothing can be done under this system to make a fair 'trade drops for drops' as PvE players have no use for garbage like shield breaker in PvE.

Well this way you could either pvp or pve for either drops wich in my eyes is a win for all...Milk has been spilt stop crying and look for meaningful options...

Once again, PvE'ers don't need any PvP drops at all atm, so it would only benefit PvP'ers under this system, and once again, this isn't tackling the main issue PvE'ers have with this system which is that the RnG that they have to put up with will be in no ways mirrored in the PvP system from all the information that has already been provided.

Sharmony wrote: »

As I said previously, if we were to make the system 100% fair and equal this is what it would look like: You would be able to buy RnG heads where you cannot see the trait or armor type prior to purchase but simply the set on the vendor (this is what it's like in PvE, we choose a dungeon for a set head, it's all RnG from that point onwards). Instead of buying shoulders you would be buying gold keys, no choice on what you get or if you'll even get it, same as in PvE and you would be able to purchase one of these keys per character per day, same as in PvE with gold keys, maybe you get double purchases on weekends like we get WGT and ICP gold keys (2 per these dailies).

And moreover then as I've already stated before...

Sharmony wrote: »

Because in PvP you guys earn AP for what you enjoy doing, which can yield money, or in the future, sets (and these sets are convenience, although they have said they will be on a rotation, you can simply wonder down and pick them up, not farm them with lots of B/S RnG). In PvE we're not earning anything here, largely just losing it, and sure we have access to the items that will be sold by this vendor but you have a 100% chance of getting the item as long as it's on rotation, we have nothing of the sort in PvE and generate no additional income on the whole for what we enjoy doing. AP is flexible and can make money, that in itself is better than anything that PvE'ers get atm, any decon mats I get (very few) have gone into making sets, often then without writs I would've been farming or buying materials as PvP'ers must have to to make their sets. I like your latter suggestion and this is yet another problem. The main issue that PvE players have is that so far: a] We have to farm for an RnG drop, it's not on rotation, it's a chance. b] we have to use broken gold keys to have a chance at shoulders pieces, you will not, it's on rotation, click and collect.c] you get an option to choose whether to select to buy an item or not, we choose to farm it but it's luck if we get what we want, we don't just play the waiting game. d] Although we can buy these new items for gold as I have already explained, most of us are just losing money here, with AP it's like a bonus for you playing the content you enjoy, for us, unless we farm AP (it's said to be costly these set items), we have to farm... willpower? anything to get money because it will be just as expensive and we're not playing content we enjoy.

Sharmony wrote: »

Once again, PvE'ers don't need any PvP drops at all atm, so it would only benefit PvP'ers under this system, and once again, this isn't tackling the main issue PvE'ers have with this system which is that the RnG that they have to put up with will be in no ways mirrored in the PvP system from all the information that has already been provided.

Heresay and conjecture, under these terms pvpers do not need pve gear.

Sharmony wrote: »

Thornen wrote: »

Sharmony wrote: »

Once again, PvE'ers don't need any PvP drops at all atm, so it would only benefit PvP'ers under this system, and once again, this isn't tackling the main issue PvE'ers have with this system which is that the RnG that they have to put up with will be in no ways mirrored in the PvP system from all the information that has already been provided.

Heresay and conjecture, under these terms pvpers do not need pve gear.

Well no, not really. I can name only two PvP sets that might be used as a 1 of in a 12man raid team... this is it... and besides they can both be bought for Tel Var, not AP, which is a farm or can be bought as they are BoE. Beyond this these sets which are both 5 piece sets could be compared to something like Winterborn or Permafrost from VMSA which are sadly not BoE like PvP sets, not something as individual as the 2 piece monster sets. Never once did I say that PvPers didn't need to get PvE gear and consequently you are just ignoring what I am saying it seems. Brushing off whatever I say as 'heresay and conjecture', I would say, unless you listen to someones points, yours could be described as thus. PvPers do need PvE gear, this is indisputable, but under the current proposed system from what we have been told so far they are not facing the same RnG circumstances to get the same rewards as PvE'ers. And given that PvE is often a loss in gold at this point in time due to the overwhelming amount of BoP loot from IC Vet dungeons and Wrothgar asking a PvE player to pay gold whilst a PvP player gets it as a byproduct of general gameplay is unfair and unbalanced in multiple ways; The high price, the lack of heavy rng and the lack of availability that all exist within the PvE system at present.

To be honest the means to obtain it is in Place they just need to add a few more PVEed Instance Places in PVP that can reward these items Problem solved Warhammer had this with its PVPable pve instances with Boss fights etc something that was stolen from DAOC Im sure they can enter this in and it be a Win Win for all

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@Takllin correct, but no weapons.

Awesome, thank you! I really like this change. I'm also glad that Maelstrom Weapons won't be available, I think there should be some exclusivity to certain items.

Now if you could exclude the less than desirable traits...

Is this exlusion of the bad traits meant to apply to both PvP vendors and loot in dungeons or only for the PvPers?

Because PvE players don't have gold to buy the PvE AND PvP from these vendors right :P Couldn't possibly be the case, could it?

FTR, I wish they would remove undesirable traits entirely from drop sets/undaunted, but that's a dead horse that has been beaten enough and a separate topic.

Well, it is announced to cost a lot of gold and I dont have that much, since most of the cool stuff is BOP. On top of that, earning AP and buying an item with a good trait or having a chance to get a helmet with a random trait and a random armor class are two different ways of obtaining gear, where one favors one part of the players.

Not every PvP player has a lot of AP either stashed away either, and it has been announced to cost a lot of AP as well.

You can buy these items with AP or Gold. It is up to you on which you choose to purchase it with. This is good for everyone, not just PvP or PvE players.

You may have misunderstood me there. I am not against those vendors selling those helmets. TBH I had horrible experiences with PvP players trying to farm helmets
But I dislike the fact that this is a system that doesnt let a PvE player work towards their dream item as much as a PvP player. Sure it is not that everyone is making 1m AP a day, but I just had a talk with a DK yesterday that has never had a Valkyn helmet, although farming for it a lot.
So I dislike that PvPers can work towards their items, while doing what they like, while PvE players are restricted to RNG or buying it for high gold cost.

PvE players can work towards their items as well doing what they like, PvE. So I don't quite understand that comparison.

Cuyler wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. There is too much animosity between PVE and PvP players and both sides are just confused as to what is really happening.

BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS BENEFIT FROM THE MONSTER HELM VENDORS.

PvE players can buy the monster items with the gold they earn from pve'ing.

The issue that is that nobody makes gold playing how they like anymore. Unless of course you're the kind of player that prefers grinding as endgame and not simply a means to an endgame. So no, if fact, we don't make gold from endgame PvEing anymore. All the sellable sets are not in demand. The in-demand sets are craftable or BoP. Nobody gets ESO rich by PvEing endgame content anymore.

I dunno im sure the economy is different on PC, but its pretty easy on xbox to make plenty of gold selling motifs, tempers, low level mats, and especially v16 mats. Not to mention the trash not even worth decon you can sell to the NPCs after a couple dungeon runs.

Keyword Endgame. That includes Trials, vDSA, vMA and PvP. Which one gives you those things in quantity to sell and make gold? Answer: none

I'm not talking about pledge runs. You do those while leveling or gear grinding, but that's my point. Need to grind to get gold, not play how we like doing actual endgame activities.

What Cuyler said. Progress PvE endgame is anything but self-sustaining in a gold-related way. Potions, always the newest gear, bufffood, repair costs, soul gems (guild member of us spend more than 1000 soul gems in MSA) costs more than the money you earn from these acitivities, especially because you can't sell most of the items. In PvP you earn your AP at your own rate and can buy items, which you can sell for high gold costs (remember Cyrodiils Lights and Ravager set).

No reason to spend gems in MSA unless you're going for score. Just wayshrine and walk. 50 pots per run as well so really it costs 32 or so flowers per run. Which you can farm in 20 minutes

robkrush wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

....it is only fair.

How is this fair? Can PVP guys level Undaunted by playing PVP? No! These skills and passives take a ton of time to level up. Gear you get is obsolete next patch.

obsolete? how so?

This may be a terrible idea, but since pvpers lack a good way of making gold, maybe let them buy AP bags with their AP that can be sold? The bag when opened can grant PvErs a certain amount of ap toward their skill lines and only their skill lines (no campaign progress or anything). This would inject gold making into PvP and allow people who want to avoid PvP like the plague to get the skills. Eh, I'm sure there are holes in this logic but it's something that popped in my head and I'm curious if anyone thinks it's a good idea. Once I have my monster set, I'll be right back to having nothing to really spend AP on.