(Pandoras Box) Since PvPers will be able to skip PvE to get gear...

Swen_von_Walhallion · December 2015

well its rly fair, as stamina DD i ma forced grinding PvP bc vigor, i am forcet farming IC bc agility jewelery, i must farm stones to buy leather for vr16armor i must farm PvE dungs and hope for 0,00000001% sance to drop me right helm with right trait. Now some PvP noob who runing 14days only in zerg bal only just buy what i must farm for months ? and PvP gear is rly joke, i dont know any PvP eqvip which can be better then crafted for PvE. And at last with new trials coming, trial gear will be sold for AP too bc poor pvpers cannot be forced to play PvE ? its ***, only waht support is some sort of token system which give you helm which want you with randome trait after X runs.
Exclusive things are exclusive why make it common ......

helediron · December 2015

There is a great risk of this not being gold sink but new way of earning even more gold. How about implementing the actual token system? Both PvP and PvE players suffer from RNG, where they might never get the helmet in hundred runs? Let tokens drop in dungeons, so eventually we can earn one piece after e.g. 30 runs. For PvP players let tokens be purchaseable with AP. Selling with gold is only catering to millionaires. If the items will be tradeable, they should be behind effort, not gold. Especially if there is any RNG in purchase or availability limits like time.

Basically this is good idea. People don't change. A pure PvP player will never enjoy monster hat grind, and will never enjoy weeks of questing. I as PvE player will never reach detonation. ZOS systematically places best PvE grinds into PvP and nerfs every good PvE grind in PvE areas, but i'll still never really start PvP. ZOS seems finally admitting this after IC collapsed. A monster hat earned with AP is not away from me.

About possible AP prices and tradeability: I have only 400k AP. So I bought the Akaviri motif set from guild vendors and directly via PvP players. In no way i was going to pay excessive prices in gold. In the end that caused AP-to-gold rate to drop dramatically. Effectively that caused PvP players to lose unnecessarily AP.

One more thing: why is this monster helm issue fixed through PvP team? The root cause is bad RNG in PvE.

Helgi_Skotina · December 2015

What about PvP player get the undaunted skill line by getting alliance war ranks? Then its OK.

Jhunn · December 2015

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

well its rly fair, as stamina DD i ma forced grinding PvP bc vigor, i am forcet farming IC bc agility jewelery, i must farm stones to buy leather for vr16armor i must farm PvE dungs and hope for 0,00000001% sance to drop me right helm with right trait. Now some PvP noob who runing 14days only in zerg bal only just buy what i must farm for months ? and PvP gear is rly joke, i dont know any PvP eqvip which can be better then crafted for PvE. And at last with new trials coming, trial gear will be sold for AP too bc poor pvpers cannot be forced to play PvE ? its ***, only waht support is some sort of token system which give you helm which want you with randome trait after X runs.
Exclusive things are exclusive why make it common ......

Cry more please. We have to farm IC and stones aswell for $$$ and do dailies for Undaunted sets aswell as grinding 9 Undaunted levels. Shush, pet.

Turelus · December 2015

I still think the better solution is unbinding gear and having both PvP and PvE offer sets which people can sell/trade. BoP is only ever used in games to keep the gear chase going, which so many fans of this game have said isn't something they're interested in.

Edit to this.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler rather than adding in this merchant and upsetting the PvE player base and working on the issues of how to distribute the gear fairly. Why don't we just return to how it was in past updates when everyone was happy?

Most normal sets are BoE (this includes new IC dungeon & Orsinium chest gear.
Trials/Arena items are BoP but also in the end of campaign rewards.
Add boss helms/shoulders to the end of campaign rewards.
Everyone who qualifies for end of campaign items gets a random selection of these sets, quality dependant on your placement.

There were very few complaints when the old trials sets were added to the end of campaign rewards because PvP players could get their hands on them at last, this was in fact how I got my first Master weapons and was over the moon about it.

Zinaroth · December 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

BoP vs. BoE and which traits are still being discussed.

If you make them BoE you better make the dungeon drops BoE aswell!

Alternatively for an even better system where we don't need an artifical NPC check out this:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2503447/#Comment_2503447

Quick summary: Make the items BoE and allow players to sell them to encourage a free market instead of having an NPC sell them artificially. Fixes several problems in one fix instead of only making a fix for the PvP players. They won't care where they need to buy it from and AP is easily translated into gold with the new Akaviri Motifs and the upcoming increase to VR16 for the PvP gear. This way PvEers can finally start making some gold off their favorite activities just like PvPers do, and both sides could benefit.

Kammakazi · December 2015

To the people saying you can't level Undaunted in PvP.

I hit rank 4 while grinding in Cracked Wood Cave, so...

Islyn · December 2015

robkrush wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

....it is only fair.

How is this fair? Can PVP guys level Undaunted by playing PVP? No! These skills and passives take a ton of time to level up. Gear you get is obsolete next patch.

Actually if you do all the dungeons/quests associated Undaunted is EASY to lvl up and you Get Good Things That you want from it. Now you have a nice easy way to buy it by doing what you prefer in game.

PVP skills on the other hand are a right pain in the arse and take FOREVER and I get _nothing_ for it but a skill and to spend hours and hours and hours helping people do stuff I don't care about. :P

I am gonna do it and that's that, but it would be nice to get your stuff by doing what I want the same way as you get our stuff by doing what you want.

Islyn · December 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

BoP vs. BoE and which traits are still being discussed.

I HOPE they are BOP.

BOE would just be people constantly selling the stuff the rest of us had to actually earn.

I actually cannot stand that this is happening but oh well.

Give the PVPers more bennies whilst the rest of us have to slog away in Cyrohell doing pointless stuff to lvl a skill tree.

Etaniel · December 2015

acw37162 wrote: »

Well,

PvP players will be getting a vendor giving access to undaunted monster helms and shoulders for AP and/or gold and that is a good change players who don't want to PvE have access to beat in slot monster helms and shoulders they want, cool.

That leaves two outstanding changes that need to come along.

Assault and support skill lines should ever opened up to all players upon reaching Veteran Ranks or Level 50 for not previously attained through PvP experience.

PvP players need a way to level undaunted skills and passives in Cyrodil or IC.

PvP players don't have to PvE

PvE players don't have to PvP

Everyone can play the game how hey want with access to everything they want.

While completely fair and unbiased someone will go nuts guaranteed.

I think what is wrong with the system is that PvPers need gear from PvE and vice versa.
I think everyone should earn their gear/skills, and we shouldn't give everything to everyone just because it sounds fair and unbiased.
You work for something and you enjoy the reward, simple as that.

BUT I find it idiotic that PvP skills are required to be competitive in PvE, and PvE passives required to be competitive in PvP.
Undaunted passives and gear should only provide a benefit when you are running PvE dungeons, that way PvPers wouldn't complain because they wouldn't need it !

Islyn · December 2015

ks888 wrote: »

No. You want PvP skill lines, do the work. As someone who spends 90% of my game time in Cyro, I worked for my Proxy Det, Vigor, Barrier, etc. If you want the skills, earn them. The same applies to me, in the case of the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild and Undaunted skill lines. I had to commit some time to PvE to attain those, even if it's not really my thing. So yeah, I respectfully call bs on this post.

As someone who spends 90% of mine in dungeons, EARN YOUR SHOULDERS AND HELM.

Also, are you really comparing gathering books and lvling 2 easy skill lines to 9 and 10 to levelling alliance skill lines???

The hypocrisy is stunning.

I need to just stay out of these threads before I give myself a stroke.

Islyn · December 2015

Sharmony wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

BoP vs. BoE and which traits are still being discussed.

Are you sure you've thought this through, can you do the same for pve'ers in some manner? what it's resulting in is nulfying pve content for pvp'ers but there is nothing that supports the other way round. I want my akavari, I have to play pvp? Please consider the balance and encouraging people to play a span of content. This change doesn't seem right to me.

I absolutely agree.

olsborg · December 2015

Well you could make the trait random, and have the AP/Gold cost not be terrible. Like the telvar sets.

willymchilybily · December 2015

i dont see why PvE players are being upset by the prospect of monster sets being available from a vendor when that vendor sells the items for both GOLD and AP. it seems fair to both parties.

As for skill lines. We all have to find the mage books for the meteor/entropy/magelight, we all have to PvP if we want prox det, vigor, caltrops, purge. And we all have to dungeon if we want undaunted. and in my opinion, anything build critical is unlocked fairly early in all cases or not really build critical opposed to build preferred.

but I'm happy to debate any of my statements if someone has an example that contradicts the above.

Alucardo · December 2015

I was all for the Undaunted gear going to PVP, but I'm having second thoughts. I seriously can't take all the whining from the PVE mob. I'm really sorry, but I can't. Please re-think this change.
I'd rather PVE to get this stuff than give myself an aneurysm reading their salty comments.

Khaos_Bane · December 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Well,

PvP players will be getting a vendor giving access to undaunted monster helms and shoulders for AP and/or gold and that is a good change players who don't want to PvE have access to beat in slot monster helms and shoulders they want, cool.

That leaves two outstanding changes that need to come along.

Assault and support skill lines should ever opened up to all players upon reaching Veteran Ranks or Level 50 for not previously attained through PvP experience.

PvP players need a way to level undaunted skills and passives in Cyrodil or IC.

PvP players don't have to PvE

PvE players don't have to PvP

Everyone can play the game how hey want with access to everything they want.

While completely fair and unbiased someone will go nuts guaranteed.

I think what is wrong with the system is that PvPers need gear from PvE and vice versa.
I think everyone should earn their gear/skills, and we shouldn't give everything to everyone just because it sounds fair and unbiased.
You work for something and you enjoy the reward, simple as that.

BUT I find it idiotic that PvP skills are required to be competitive in PvE, and PvE passives required to be competitive in PvP.
Undaunted passives and gear should only provide a benefit when you are running PvE dungeons, that way PvPers wouldn't complain because they wouldn't need it !

Amen to this Etaniel, it's ridiculous that the AP line of skills are becoming a very important and in some cases required skills in PvE. Make these skills available in PvE or simply restrict them to PvP.

I remember when WoW was at the point where the best gear in game was PvP. It was a horrible state of the game at that time for many. Fortunately I really liked battlegrounds in WoW. I cannot stand PvP in this game. The cyrodill zergs and lag is ridiculous and the imperial city mess and chaos is aggravating.

Keep the skill line in PvP or make it available to PvE.

Stop making PvE gear available to PvP players or let PvE players SELL IT TO THEM. Right now it's in a state where they let PvP players sell gear to PvE players then make all PvE gear available on a merchant and keep in BoP so we can't sell it to PvP players.

This BoP crap is a big FU from ZoS to the player base. Thanks for destroying the economy ZoS !!!!!

Personofsecrets · December 2015

I can't believe that this is changing. People should have just adapted to the loot system.

Khaos_Bane · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

I was all for the Undaunted gear going to PVP, but I'm having second thoughts. I seriously can't take all the whining from the PVE mob. I'm really sorry, but I can't. Please re-think this change.
I'd rather PVE to get this stuff than give myself an aneurysm reading their salty comments.

All ZoS has to do is make the gear BoE and everyone should be happy. PvP players can get the gear without running dungeons. PvE players actually have a reason to run Dungeons, farm for these items to sell to PvP players and other PvE players.

You honestly don't see a problem with making top tier gear exclusively available to PvP players to sell or acquire while making the top PvE gear BoP?

You don't see a problem with making a skill like that is becoming required in PvE exclusively available to PvP players?

This isn't whining, it's trying to keep a healthy economy and game when designers come up with bad ideas.

Alucardo · December 2015

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

All ZoS has to do is make the gear BoE and everyone should be happy. PvP players can get the gear without running dungeons. PvE players actually have a reason to run Dungeons, farm for these items to sell to PvP players and other PvE players.

You honestly don't see a problem with making top tier gear exclusively available to PvP players to sell or acquire while making the top PvE gear BoP?

You don't see a problem with making a skill like that is becoming required in PvE exclusively available to PvP players?

This isn't whining, it's trying to keep a healthy economy and game when designers come up with bad ideas.

To be honest I flat out refuse to do that amount of PVE, so I'm fine with forfeiting the bonuses I might receive with that type of thing. Why can't people feel the same way? Why do they have to complain about everything?
ZOS lowered the requirement for Vigor, probably to help PVErs get it quicker, which was a great change. In my eyes, that's really the only alliance war skill that would be truly beneficial to them. You don't need caltrops, you don't need proxy det, but stam heals are fairly important admittedly.
There's a huge difference between "need" and "want". I'm tired of people saying, "We NEED this". Well, no, you don't. You've gone this long without it, so it's obviously not stopping your progression, just like not having undaunted is halting mine.
My undaunted skill line is literally at rank 1. Why? Because I don't need it. Sure, it'd be nice to have, but it's not necessary. I don't do the PVE, I don't get the goods. It's that simple.

Now, let's look at this undaunted gear coming to PVP vendors. It can be bought for gold. Gold which PVErs earn much more of than a PVPer would. So you actually have more of a chance buying this stuff than we do.
This change is not just benefiting us, but you can't seem to grasp that. It's like all you guys heard was "PVP" and "buy Undaunted gear" - the other details weren't important.
So yes, I'd honestly rather NOT have this vendor and go back to how things were than to deal with this crap.

Jura23 · December 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I can't believe that this is changing. People should have just adapted to the loot system.

I think its not even because of PvPers, thats more like secondary thing. It feels like they are adding this vendor mroe because of PvEers complaining about RNG.

willymchilybily · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

To be honest I flat out refuse to do that amount of PVE, so I'm fine with forfeiting the bonuses I might receive with that type of thing. Why can't people feel the same way? Why do they have to complain about everything?

Its actually incredibly easy to get shoulders with minimal PvE. (assuming you want malubeth the scourger). its the RNG that sucks. So this is a welcome change.

Alucardo wrote: »

There's a huge difference between "need" and "want". I'm tired of people saying, "We NEED this". Well, no, you don't. You've gone this long without it, so it's obviously not stopping your progression, just like not having undaunted is halting mine.

completely agree. tanks dont Need caltrops, DPS dont need Proxt Det. Until vMA stamina DPS didnt need vigor. it gives a utility that is useful, but not essential to being able to complete the content. Whenever the group doesn't finish a vet dungeon its mostly because of gear/dungeon experience/group communication

Alucardo wrote: »

It's like all you guys heard was "PVP" and "buy Undaunted gear" - the other details weren't important.
So yes, I'd honestly rather NOT have this vendor and go back to how things were than to deal with this crap.

almost agree with you except i want to finish my sets and this gives me an alternative.
you think this is bad, just wait till people realise its a weekly vendor that sells an item with RNG trait. and with no info on how many items are sold at a time either way its going to cause more tears.eg

imagine if the vendor only sells 1 item each week. with 10 sets 2 items per set and 8? potential traits that's 160 weeks ( or 3 years) for every possibility before repeats. and as they sell more items there is a risk that you can buy a complete monster set, you dont think people will complain at that? itsw literately a development mine field, someone some where is going to complain about it.

Jaronking · December 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Well,

PvP players will be getting a vendor giving access to undaunted monster helms and shoulders for AP and/or gold and that is a good change players who don't want to PvE have access to beat in slot monster helms and shoulders they want, cool.

That leaves two outstanding changes that need to come along.

Assault and support skill lines should ever opened up to all players upon reaching Veteran Ranks or Level 50 for not previously attained through PvP experience.

PvP players need a way to level undaunted skills and passives in Cyrodil or IC.

PvP players don't have to PvE

PvE players don't have to PvP

Everyone can play the game how hey want with access to everything they want.

While completely fair and unbiased someone will go nuts guaranteed.

I think what is wrong with the system is that PvPers need gear from PvE and vice versa.
I think everyone should earn their gear/skills, and we shouldn't give everything to everyone just because it sounds fair and unbiased.
You work for something and you enjoy the reward, simple as that.

BUT I find it idiotic that PvP skills are required to be competitive in PvE, and PvE passives required to be competitive in PvP.
Undaunted passives and gear should only provide a benefit when you are running PvE dungeons, that way PvPers wouldn't complain because they wouldn't need it !

They should do the same thing with PVP skills and abilities.Make them only work in PVP and not in PVE.

Alucardo · December 2015

Jaronking wrote: »

They should do the same thing with PVP skills and abilities.Make them only work in PVP and not in PVE.

I already can't use my siege in PVE, please don't nerf me any more

Frawr · December 2015

I think that putting monster sets into pvp is a bad idea.

I think that pvp should be assigned a different list of sets that are unrelated to undaunted.

Reason for this is that there needs to be distinction between activities, all with unique rewards. If you give everyone access to everythi ng through generic 'xp' then everyone ends up being forced (indirectly) into the shortest method of obtaining each thing.

PvE will complain if monster helms and alliance war skills come faster in pvp than pve
Pvp will complain if alliance war skills come fast er from pve than from pvp

Each will feel compelled to do the thing that they dislike in order to most efficiently obtain the prize.

It will be the same as what happened with 'gentle gains over time' CP. We all know how that turned out.

I really think that there should be distinct activities with distinct rewards and skills.

Alucardo · December 2015

Frawr wrote: »

I really think that there should be distinct activities with distinct rewards and skills.

I'm leaning towards this as well. It's nice to spread things out and have unique sets and abilities for doing different things.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · December 2015

willymchilybily wrote: »

As for skill lines. We all have to find the mage books for the meteor/entropy/magelight,

As someone said above, you're comparing a skill line that could be leveled in an hour with the lorebooks add on to one that takes weeks of grinding PvP just to get a few of the "early" skills let alone max it.

The only PvE skill line that compares slightly is the undaunted and even that isn't as grindy as you can get your first few skills after a few dungeons, the only grindy aspect of it is the full 3 armor type bonus at rank 9 and that isn't as necessary as vigor or caltrops is for stamina builds.

There needs to be a change IMO, either lower AP requirements for these early ranks/higher AP gain in cyrodiil or maybe even a new skill line with similar stamina based abilities.

pema · December 2015

Why AP? Only the hard core pvp players have tons of it laying around.
The mainstream player doesn't but we all get gold for stuff.

I'm not a fan of all these currencies in game, and I understand it if it's sort of zoned like PVP was before you guys put crafting stuff in there.
The shoulders you can get easy, just do the pledges. That you could get the helmets that is an interesting twist. But make them so you need to spend something you get by doing them, like a token or laurel, in order to be able to make a purchase.
At least keep something hard to get, and not easy to score even if you never set a foot outside cyro.

Wollust · December 2015

Kammakazi wrote: »

To the people saying you can't level Undaunted in PvP.

I hit rank 4 while grinding in Cracked Wood Cave, so...

I got caltrops while grinding in CWC, so...

CWC is no PvP, it's grinding PvE enemies in a PvP area. Same as IC. Your argument is definitely not valid.

Islyn wrote: »

ks888 wrote: »

No. You want PvP skill lines, do the work. As someone who spends 90% of my game time in Cyro, I worked for my Proxy Det, Vigor, Barrier, etc. If you want the skills, earn them. The same applies to me, in the case of the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild and Undaunted skill lines. I had to commit some time to PvE to attain those, even if it's not really my thing. So yeah, I respectfully call bs on this post.

As someone who spends 90% of mine in dungeons, EARN YOUR SHOULDERS AND HELM.

Also, are you really comparing gathering books and lvling 2 easy skill lines to 9 and 10 to levelling alliance skill lines???

The hypocrisy is stunning.

I need to just stay out of these threads before I give myself a stroke.

What if I told you that for a lot of PvPers it's actually easier and faster to level up the alliance skill than undaunted?
I need 3 weeks max. to get to detonation on a new character, while I do the thing I enjoy. But it takes me longer to level up undaunted, while doing something which is completely boring because you can just faceroll through all dungeons, including the new ones. And it's also incredibly draining to collect these freaking lore books.

And I'm pretty sure after having done hundreds of pledges I would have earned having shoulders and helmets in the right trait. Do I have them? Nope, RNG is a ***.

You do what you enjoy (PvE) and get your helmet and shoulder at some point, we do what we enjoy (PvP) and can buy our helmets and shoulders at some point. I believe they're gonna be expensive as hell anyway, so it's not gonna be like you can PvP one day and already have enough AP to buy it.

Khaos_Bane · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

All ZoS has to do is make the gear BoE and everyone should be happy. PvP players can get the gear without running dungeons. PvE players actually have a reason to run Dungeons, farm for these items to sell to PvP players and other PvE players.

You honestly don't see a problem with making top tier gear exclusively available to PvP players to sell or acquire while making the top PvE gear BoP?

You don't see a problem with making a skill like that is becoming required in PvE exclusively available to PvP players?

This isn't whining, it's trying to keep a healthy economy and game when designers come up with bad ideas.

To be honest I flat out refuse to do that amount of PVE, so I'm fine with forfeiting the bonuses I might receive with that type of thing. Why can't people feel the same way? Why do they have to complain about everything?
ZOS lowered the requirement for Vigor, probably to help PVErs get it quicker, which was a great change. In my eyes, that's really the only alliance war skill that would be truly beneficial to them. You don't need caltrops, you don't need proxy det, but stam heals are fairly important admittedly.
There's a huge difference between "need" and "want". I'm tired of people saying, "We NEED this". Well, no, you don't. You've gone this long without it, so it's obviously not stopping your progression, just like not having undaunted is halting mine.
My undaunted skill line is literally at rank 1. Why? Because I don't need it. Sure, it'd be nice to have, but it's not necessary. I don't do the PVE, I don't get the goods. It's that simple.

Now, let's look at this undaunted gear coming to PVP vendors. It can be bought for gold. Gold which PVErs earn much more of than a PVPer would. So you actually have more of a chance buying this stuff than we do.
This change is not just benefiting us, but you can't seem to grasp that. It's like all you guys heard was "PVP" and "buy Undaunted gear" - the other details weren't important.
So yes, I'd honestly rather NOT have this vendor and go back to how things were than to deal with this crap.

I agree with you, you shouldn't have access to that gear. Like PvP players say to us all the time "Suck it up and learn how to play instance dungeon content". If you are going to allow PvP players access to top tier PvE gear then the reverse should be true. People use Caltrops, Vigor, and Det all of the time in PvE instance dungeons and it contributes to DPS significantly.

Also, I am fine leaving them separate, just as you are so I can't see how you aren't getting that? Leave the PvP skills in PvP only as well and it will resolve the skill issue. It shouldn't impact the open world of instance PvE gaming. For example, vigor is nearly required for stamina builds in PvE solo content Maelstrom arena. OR make those skill lines available to all through AP or XP period.

This really isn't complicated. Game designers are talking about these scenarios? They have a different direction for the game than how we want to play it ? I'm not sure....

DEATHquidox · December 2015

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Based on how I understand this...you're understanding is that a PvP player should not have any option to obtain dungeon gear or certain sets unless they PvE....
OR
Unless the PvE content offers PvP items and sets.

In my perspective...and this could be totally the wrong way of looking at it, but Imperial City allows a PvE player to stay in a group and gather a lot of tokens to buy the PvP stuff in the sewers.

I guess other than that, a PvE player cant really get PvP items but to be honest, I'm a 90% PvE player and I'm in no way interested in PvP skills or gear. I don't see why this is an issue

@NewBlacksmurf The issue is that PvE undaunted gear (engine guardian, molag kena) is practically required to be competitive in PvP and vice-versa PvP skills required to be good for PvE especially for stamina builds. PvPers can now get the normally locked behind PvE competitive gear without PvE but as of now there is no equivalent unlock for PvE players, it is the fact that they got their wish 100% while PvE players don't get theirs that brought this up.

Also: why do PvPers who NEVER PvE get so hell bent out of shape when PvEers ask for PvP stuff yet when the option for PvP only people to get stuff gated behind PvE gets suggested few so much as bat an eye?

As a person that basically only pvps I only pvp because I dont have anyone to play with and do dungens and such. Also its hard to unlock all of those skills from the alliance skill lines it takes alot of time on the flip side the undaunted you can do every day and potentially be able to get almost every set in 1 week it you run enough it takes alot of time to get to alliance rank 15