frozywozy wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

If you have alot of APs banked up, you're doing it wrong. You don't use sieges enough.

I use siege all the time, I even mail it to my Mag DK friends so they can stop being dead weight, but AP gains from playing normally for a night still far outweighs siege cost for me. Or are you suggesting that we should be using siege in every open field fight too? I remember that first week after the original siege buff where all the yellows were just setting fire ballistas everywhere in the fields between Sej & BRK, never engaging us. They'd just run away, and put down another siege line over and over - and I'm talking about fairly even number fights here and fights where we were outnumbered. It was pretty stupid. The strength of siege back then coupled w/ ppl not reacting properly created a siege meta that didn't push pugs to try and learn and hone their skills, it just drove them to drop as much siege as they possibly could and start left clicking.

I'm not sure which part of "I have 500k AP and I'm alliance rank 45 didn't you understand? Do I also need to do the mats for you and tell you how much AP is that worth? Do I also need to specify that I never sold any AP but one item for 250k? Do I also need to answer your huge paragraph of none sense confirming that I didn't drop lines of fire balista in the openfield just for the heck of it?

I use sieges efficiently and consistently. Ask anybody part of Vokundein, Sotp, Bftp, Pact Militia, SL, Haxus, GoS and they will tell you how hardcore I am with sieges. I don't waste them. But I am still sitting at 500k APs and my main point, which you have not discussed at all during your huge paragraph, was that if the PvP vendors that Brian intend to add, sell too expensive items, it will incentive people to save their APs and it will be even harder to get people to siege keeps.

frozywozy wrote: »

#3: It was great to hear all the guests (who are part of 24men groups) talking against siege utility buffs. They all agreed to mention that larger groups have more people at their disposal to deploy sieges (reffering to openfield battles), but none of them talked about keep battles where the larger group has to push a breach and meanwhile, won't be able to setup a siege as they push inside the breach.

What? I don't know if you worded that wrong, but how is a 'larger' group unable to set up siege as they push inside. The larger group can do exactly that because it has people to spare. That's the whole point that people have been trying to make about what keep fights may turn into depending on how siege is changed; if siege becomes too much of a force multiplier, it'll devolve into who brings the biggest zerg to storm/defend multiple breaches. And I don't know about you, but to me the thought of trying to defend the inner against a couple stacked guilds who would have the luxury of stacking multiple siege along the outer walls, firing onto the back flag, stairs, 2nd floor basically denying my group access to anything except the front flag room seems pretty stupid. People can use that tactic currently and be quite effective, but it's nowhere near as crippling as it would be w/ unpurgable oil cats, for instance.

My point here, as several people talked about in the official Siege thread, was that when a large group attack a keep, usually they won't deploy on a keep with considerable amount of people defending it. They will go hit where enemy doesn't expect it, which makes sense. By the time the outter wall goes down, usually the defenders are pretty much outnumbered, and in most scenarios, disorganized (not their whole group is present.. people still riding back to reinforce, etc).

Now you have the ballgroup stacking up and getting ready to push inside the breach. Nowadays, it will result into the ballgroups successful pushing in and securing the courtyard and the issue of the battle will most likely occurs inside the inner, or by a ballgroup defending the keep bombing them in the courtyard.

The problem I see here is that I would like the smaller group who is already in place when the outter wall goes down to stand a chance at holding that breach. This is not what's happening. Getting inside an outter breach is like a walk in the park and when those siege changes pop in, it will be a whole difference story. Why? Wait for it... Because a ballgroup cannot deploy sieges at they are moving inside a breach. But the defenders, since they are the one defending, are the ones waiting with sieges aiming at the breach. As soon as that ballgroup will get inside the breach, if proper sieges are setted up, we should be able to pick and destroy alot of them. They won't even have time to setup sieges inside and they will already be falling appart because THEY REFUSED TO SPREAD OUT OR TO GET AN ADDITIONAL WALL DOWN.

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

If you have alot of APs banked up, you're doing it wrong. You don't use sieges enough.

I use siege all the time, I even mail it to my Mag DK friends so they can stop being dead weight, but AP gains from playing normally for a night still far outweighs siege cost for me. Or are you suggesting that we should be using siege in every open field fight too? I remember that first week after the original siege buff where all the yellows were just setting fire ballistas everywhere in the fields between Sej & BRK, never engaging us. They'd just run away, and put down another siege line over and over - and I'm talking about fairly even number fights here and fights where we were outnumbered. It was pretty stupid. The strength of siege back then coupled w/ ppl not reacting properly created a siege meta that didn't push pugs to try and learn and hone their skills, it just drove them to drop as much siege as they possibly could and start left clicking.

I'm not sure which part of "I have 500k AP and I'm alliance rank 45 didn't you understand? Do I also need to do the mats for you and tell you how much AP is that worth? Do I also need to specify that I never sold any AP but one item for 250k? Do I also need to answer your huge paragraph of none sense confirming that I didn't drop lines of fire balista in the openfield just for the heck of it?

I use sieges efficiently and consistently. Ask anybody part of Vokundein, Sotp, Bftp, Pact Militia, SL, Haxus, GoS and they will tell you how hardcore I am with sieges. I don't waste them. But I am still sitting at 500k APs and my main point, which you have not discussed at all during your huge paragraph, was that if the PvP vendors that Brian intend to add, sell too expensive items, it will incentive people to save their APs and it will be even harder to get people to siege keeps.

frozywozy wrote: »

#3: It was great to hear all the guests (who are part of 24men groups) talking against siege utility buffs. They all agreed to mention that larger groups have more people at their disposal to deploy sieges (reffering to openfield battles), but none of them talked about keep battles where the larger group has to push a breach and meanwhile, won't be able to setup a siege as they push inside the breach.

What? I don't know if you worded that wrong, but how is a 'larger' group unable to set up siege as they push inside. The larger group can do exactly that because it has people to spare. That's the whole point that people have been trying to make about what keep fights may turn into depending on how siege is changed; if siege becomes too much of a force multiplier, it'll devolve into who brings the biggest zerg to storm/defend multiple breaches. And I don't know about you, but to me the thought of trying to defend the inner against a couple stacked guilds who would have the luxury of stacking multiple siege along the outer walls, firing onto the back flag, stairs, 2nd floor basically denying my group access to anything except the front flag room seems pretty stupid. People can use that tactic currently and be quite effective, but it's nowhere near as crippling as it would be w/ unpurgable oil cats, for instance.

My point here, as several people talked about in the official Siege thread, was that when a large group attack a keep, usually they won't deploy on a keep with considerable amount of people defending it. They will go hit where enemy doesn't expect it, which makes sense. By the time the outter wall goes down, usually the defenders are pretty much outnumbered, and in most scenarios, disorganized (not their whole group is present.. people still riding back to reinforce, etc).

Now you have the ballgroup stacking up and getting ready to push inside the breach. Nowadays, it will result into the ballgroups successful pushing in and securing the courtyard and the issue of the battle will most likely occurs inside the inner, or by a ballgroup defending the keep bombing them in the courtyard.

The problem I see here is that I would like the smaller group who is already in place when the outter wall goes down to stand a chance at holding that breach. This is not what's happening. Getting inside an outter breach is like a walk in the park and when those siege changes pop in, it will be a whole difference story. Why? Wait for it... Because a ballgroup cannot deploy sieges at they are moving inside a breach. But the defenders, since they are the one defending, are the ones waiting with sieges aiming at the breach. As soon as that ballgroup will get inside the breach, if proper sieges are setted up, we should be able to pick and destroy alot of them. They won't even have time to setup sieges inside and they will already be falling appart because THEY REFUSED TO SPREAD OUT OR TO GET AN ADDITIONAL WALL DOWN.

Again, can I please have clarification on how the ball group is supposed to spread out INSIDE THE INNER OF A KEEP? While being pelted with seige?

Please, just, lay this out for me. Explain it to me. Like I'm 5. I have 20 people, you have 40 on the inside. Siege everywhere. How do I "spread out" while going into that death trap? How do I kill anything, how do I survive when I am hit on the breach by an 3 oils, a meatbag, an oil cat and a fire treb? I am now slowed, snared, damaged, without resources, debuffed, and (more importantly) in the middle of 40 enemies. "Spreading out" when goign into an inner means "straggling in a few at a time" and that's not a strategy that's suicide.

You say groups refuse to spread out, I say you're intentionally constructing an impossible situation. You're constructing a deathtrap and than telling us "come in one at a time, all spread out, it's gonna work out grand!" Except it won't, and you really should understand this.

The sad part about all this is that right now, unless you're facing a really, really elite group pretty everyone can be torn up on a breach. I can practically count on one hand the number of groups in this gmae you can;t stop in an inner breach with 8-12 good players. But of course, instead of actually geting a few people together who know how to play, you clamor for an easy-mode, boring as hell siege meta

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

How about final emp keeps? I mean if that's the case then we should still have the 1st emperors of the campaigns still seating firmly as emperor.

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

How about final emp keeps? I mean if that's the case then we should still have the 1st emperors of the campaigns still seating firmly as emperor.

I saw that one coming and I almost answered it in my last post. You should have to make the faction pick between defending his final emp keep or their scrolls by pushing and opening their gates.

Ok......they choose the final emp keep and fortify.....every other keep/scroll is lost. Now what? They are dug in and never coming out......guess we still have the original emps then in your view?

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

How about final emp keeps? I mean if that's the case then we should still have the 1st emperors of the campaigns still seating firmly as emperor.

I saw that one coming and I almost answered it in my last post. You should have to make the faction pick between defending his final emp keep or their scrolls by pushing and opening their gates.

Ok......they choose the final emp keep and fortify.....every other keep/scroll is lost. Now what? They are dug in and never coming out......guess we still have the original emps then in your view?

Exactly. And the original emps sit on their final emp keep while the two other factions win the war. I'm satisfied.

Oh now I see.....you still think people care about scores. Most folks I know haven't cared about the scoreboard since Wabbajack. Objectives...yes. Scoreboard....no. Also, you never win the war....it's eternal until the servers go offline.

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

How about final emp keeps? I mean if that's the case then we should still have the 1st emperors of the campaigns still seating firmly as emperor.

I saw that one coming and I almost answered it in my last post. You should have to make the faction pick between defending his final emp keep or their scrolls by pushing and opening their gates.

Ok......they choose the final emp keep and fortify.....every other keep/scroll is lost. Now what? They are dug in and never coming out......guess we still have the original emps then in your view?

Exactly. And the original emps sit on their final emp keep while the two other factions win the war. I'm satisfied.

Oh now I see.....you still think people care about scores. Most folks I know haven't cared about the scoreboard since Wabbajack. Objectives...yes. Scoreboard....no. Also, you never win the war....it's eternal until the servers go offline.

No wonder you guys can't understand that I spend my APs to actually buy sieges since you don't care about winning the campaign.. and the scoreboard. Well most of EP guilds remaining do care to play the game the way it was intended.

If you don't like it, you're free to do whatever you like. But in the end the designers are going to put changes to favor people who wanna win the war. Not people who want to simply kill CoD style.

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

Hard time, sure. But keeps are where you go to get action, to get fun fights, to get combat. If you make an inner so extremely untouchable that nothing but a 60-man zerg can take it... well, that's entirely unappealing to me. And should be to everyone else.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

And all you have to do is spam left click amirite? Work on that siege spec. Click harder.

Again, if you have heavy sieges support, and just 8-12 people who know how to PvP, you're going to ruin 99% of everyone who pushes into that keep. You keep avoiding that and I'm going to keep saying it. Get a few competent PvPers together, play a massive group-based MMO in a half-way decent group and watch the magic happen. Relying on siege to fix your problems is just silly.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, I'm curious how they well get past these choke-points of death with all the freaking siege on it, how they will stay alive in all those enemies, and why those enemies won't just keep on doing what they're doing. No one is afraid of a tanky DK or a glass-cannon NB when they have 30 people around them. Nor should they be. Anyone who knows anything runs Kags now, they'll just rez if you get a lucky kill. Literally does not matter.

It's a bad and unreliable strategy. It's only useful against PvPers so inexperienced that you shouldnt expend the effort on them in the first place. So, again, bad and unreliable.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Why should I have no chance?

I'm not just walking up to a keep and knocking on the door. If you go to the time to put together a strong guild, get a bunch of experienced PvPers on your team and run them until they work together like a machine, I'd say you should have a good shot at anything in this game. Mechanics that benefit numbers and cause stupid no-win situations are what we are trying to ELIMINATE by advocating for things like No Aoe Caps or Dynamic Ulti.

Fun gameplay is going into a deathtrap and winning, or knowing you have a chance of winning if you play your cards right. Poorly-designed gameplay is when you simply *leave* the engagement because the mechanics are so ludicrously stacked you don't have a chance. Like what small groups feel now running into a big one. Like what all groups will feel running into a breach with this siege meta. You already have the advantage of a choke, superior numbers, siege, high ground--everything on your side! Why you feel you must tilt it until it's literally impossible to lose is beyond me. How can that be fun for anyone?

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

I'm a fairly patient person, as most who know me in this game can testify. But like my good friend Dan said in the siege thread, watching you and others posting on these changes feels like watching the game die in front of my eyes. Bit dramatic but that's the essential bit, you're using what I feel is extremely poor logic to advocate for some truly game-breaking changes and at a certain point I don't know if you just don't see that or you just really hate groups like mine enough to push for it anyways. Neither option makes me very happy.

What I know is that no matter what would have been suggested from Zenimax to make your group spread out, you would have been against it. Because you simply can't imagine to have to ask your group to spread out.

That's pretty much it in a couple lines.

maxjapank wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

This will be short and sweet.. or not

First of, if you except to take a keep with 40players inside, you should die. You took too much time, you didn't cover the posterns as you sieged the inner and you let people reinforced the keep.

Some of us don't like PvDooring empty keeps. Some of us like having a good fight.

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

But this really kind of hits home for me where you're coming from. I can take a keep right now from 50 people. You don't like that, you don't think i should be able to. Not sure how to argue you off that.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

Secondly, I know you cannot spread out when you get inside an inner breach, the reason why my whole explanation was reffering to the outter breach. If people are properly setted up inside an inner, you should have to take other walls down to clear it. The way people go right now, they push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path because of the power of a 24men group, of massive barriers, purges, smart healing and aoe cap. This should not be a thing.

Ball groups should have to slowly make their way up the stairs, killing a few at a time, and timing their movements between each siege volley. They should assign specific roles into their group to assasinate and focus on siege operators. This is not what's happening right now. Ball groups push like a bull and no matter what's in front of them, they will destroy it. This is going to stop now. Ball groups will have to be careful before pushing inside an inner.

Firstly, people don't just "push all the way up the stairs under oil showers, meatbags, fire balistas and as they come on top of the stairs, they get bombed, shotted by fire balistas, meatbags again, and yet they manage to totally destroy everything in their path". Good groups do this against randoms or bad groups. Groups get MELTED doing this all the time. Hell, even my dreaded "24-boogyman group" gets melted doing this sometimes. Why? Because when a ton of siege is going off on you and you're getting bombed and trying to sustain and push through it all, it really hurts and can completely wipe you out.

Second, Assassinating doesn't work. It's a stupid idea in today's game. It is, Frozn. Say i get one guy, who *somehow* manages to get past Caltrops, mines, oils, unpurgable snares and heal debuffs, alllllllll the way up to the top and manages to kill ONE guy on ONE siege. What than? He's dead at that point, and the man on siege is instantly replaced or instantly rezzed. Nothign was accomplished. It is a stupid idea and you should know better.

I feel like in the end, you're just too far behind on the current meta to understand how a group works or how to stop it. If you think a group can just push into anything and win, you're flat out blind. Perhaps willfully so. Because I know you've been there when VE runs, I've seen you there some of those times we push at a keep, wipe in a keep maybe 6-7 times before we take it. We can't just run into it and mindlessly crush everything, it takes A LOT of work to take a well-defended keep, and often we will fail if resistance is that strong. Why don't you go talk to people from Haxus or GoS, groups that have successfully defended keeps from me with fewer or even numbers? Go see what they've got going on that you're missing instead of just throwing your hands up, calling ball groups invincible and doubling down on that siege spec.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, if there is 40 inside, you simply screwed your siege and let too many reinforced the inner. If you push that inner anyway and expect to survive, you're the one to blame.

Btw and just to make it clear for everybody else, because I know you're aware of my intentions and my opinion on the siege buffs. I don't agree about the changes as they proposed them. I would like oil catapult debuff to be removed with charging maneuver. I would like meatbag healing debuff to be purged but only with synergies and player interraction. Finally and not the least, I would like oil catapult and lightning balista stamina/magicka damage to be tuned down to 2k.

And again with this silly thing about how I shouldn't be able to take a keep against 40 people.

If my group, one of the best in the game, can't take a keep against 40 people how do you think a faction is going to react, Frozn? I'll tell you what happens next, they'll bring a BIGGER ZERG. They're not going to just throw up their hands and go "well they got 40 people in there, call it a day," they'll pound zone and bring the entire faction there because THAT IS HOW YOU WANT IT. You want to be invincible in your keep, safe from the dreaded "ball group" and so you're going to get bigger and bigger zergs piling up. And I though that was what we wanted to avoid, I didn't realize we were trying to create bigger incentives to zerg.

So at the end of it, for all your talk of getting better or spreading out, the core of it comes down to that you think once you have a well-defended inner you're good. You're done, I'm screwed. That's your balance. So this isn't about groups "learning to spread out" or "getting better at avoiding red" or (my favorite) "sending in the vampire assassins!" it's just about you not dying because a good group showed up to take your keep.

That's just silly, man.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

How about final emp keeps? I mean if that's the case then we should still have the 1st emperors of the campaigns still seating firmly as emperor.

I saw that one coming and I almost answered it in my last post. You should have to make the faction pick between defending his final emp keep or their scrolls by pushing and opening their gates.

Ok......they choose the final emp keep and fortify.....every other keep/scroll is lost. Now what? They are dug in and never coming out......guess we still have the original emps then in your view?

Exactly. And the original emps sit on their final emp keep while the two other factions win the war. I'm satisfied.

Oh now I see.....you still think people care about scores. Most folks I know haven't cared about the scoreboard since Wabbajack. Objectives...yes. Scoreboard....no. Also, you never win the war....it's eternal until the servers go offline.

You are still forgetting that each faction is limited to 20 siege each. And once inside the outer walls, you can quickly overrun enemy siege and place your own down to hit the inner. There are tons of places to put siege up on the outter walls. Siege can be just as deadly for defenders as for attackers. Everytime I hear someone say that their group is going to be pelted by siege, I think...well...pelt them back. You can actually hit just about anywhere in the inner from outside to help your group run in. Your group is not just "sitting ducks" at the mercy of the other teams siege.

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Like I said multiple times already, this is not about pvedooring an empty keep. This is about using strategies to hit where the enemy does't expect you to hit. If you want to hit a keep well defended, you should have a really hard time to get it.

Hard time, sure. But keeps are where you go to get action, to get fun fights, to get combat. If you make an inner so extremely untouchable that nothing but a 60-man zerg can take it... well, that's entirely unappealing to me. And should be to everyone else.

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

And all you have to do is spam left click amirite? Work on that siege spec. Click harder.

Again, if you have heavy sieges support, and just 8-12 people who know how to PvP, you're going to ruin 99% of everyone who pushes into that keep. You keep avoiding that and I'm going to keep saying it. Get a few competent PvPers together, play a massive group-based MMO in a half-way decent group and watch the magic happen. Relying on siege to fix your problems is just silly.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, I'm curious how they well get past these choke-points of death with all the freaking siege on it, how they will stay alive in all those enemies, and why those enemies won't just keep on doing what they're doing. No one is afraid of a tanky DK or a glass-cannon NB when they have 30 people around them. Nor should they be. Anyone who knows anything runs Kags now, they'll just rez if you get a lucky kill. Literally does not matter.

It's a bad and unreliable strategy. It's only useful against PvPers so inexperienced that you shouldnt expend the effort on them in the first place. So, again, bad and unreliable.

If you decide to push a well defended keep, you should have near of no chance to win the fight. This also incentive people to spread out and to hit deeper in enemy territory to unstack people from the defending posture. New forward camps are going to help that alot and I'm looking forward into it.

Why should I have no chance?

I'm not just walking up to a keep and knocking on the door. If you go to the time to put together a strong guild, get a bunch of experienced PvPers on your team and run them until they work together like a machine, I'd say you should have a good shot at anything in this game. Mechanics that benefit numbers and cause stupid no-win situations are what we are trying to ELIMINATE by advocating for things like No Aoe Caps or Dynamic Ulti.

Fun gameplay is going into a deathtrap and winning, or knowing you have a chance of winning if you play your cards right. Poorly-designed gameplay is when you simply *leave* the engagement because the mechanics are so ludicrously stacked you don't have a chance. Like what small groups feel now running into a big one. Like what all groups will feel running into a breach with this siege meta. You already have the advantage of a choke, superior numbers, siege, high ground--everything on your side! Why you feel you must tilt it until it's literally impossible to lose is beyond me. How can that be fun for anyone?

Once again and as alot of people have been telling you. It's not because people disagree with you that they are ignorant. Your arrogance is aggravating so I'm simply gonna let it go, once again.

I'm a fairly patient person, as most who know me in this game can testify. But like my good friend Dan said in the siege thread, watching you and others posting on these changes feels like watching the game die in front of my eyes. Bit dramatic but that's the essential bit, you're using what I feel is extremely poor logic to advocate for some truly game-breaking changes and at a certain point I don't know if you just don't see that or you just really hate groups like mine enough to push for it anyways. Neither option makes me very happy.

What I know is that no matter what would have been suggested from Zenimax to make your group spread out, you would have been against it. Because you simply can't imagine to have to ask your group to spread out.

That's pretty much it in a couple lines.

Nah. I'm for removing AoE caps and getting dynamic ult back, and I wouldn't sigh too hard about purges and barriers getting the nerf-hammer. I just disagree with you hard on some fairly gamebreaking issues, and you're too blinded by your hate of anyone running in a half-decent group to see where the problems would arise or even why they would be problems in the first place.

Hell man, just the fact that you want it to be near impossible to take a well-defended keep should be a clear bell letting you know something in your logic is off. Whole faction isn't going to randomly wander past Aleswell to take Chalman in a keen strategic maneuver. They're going to pile up at Aleswell, in bigger in bigger numbers until they choke it to death with their bodies or they Log Off. Either option isn't something we should be encouraging. Just one angle of the problem you're ignoring because you're holding on SO TIGHT to the idea of you getting your group-busting siege.

Like permabats, and un-nerfed DKS, siege-to-win is gamebreaking and simply not fun.

Well, not fun except for that guy who's really good at left-clicking, I guess.

I don't have any hate or don't hold any grudge for anyone playing this game

I also play from time to time in ballgroups with GoS and I enjoy my time with them even though I notice it actually lags the server alot and aggravate performances. I still have great time with them.

I'm also not looking at a "group busting" siege but I'm looking for a way to force ball groups to spread out. This will help server performances and will give a chance to smaller groups during keep defenses.

People are not going to "pile up" on the same keep until they have enough numbers. At least not in EP. We have good coordination using our alliance guild and we often will make moves on different keeps at the same time to unstack DC from Chalman. With forward camps, once again, it will be even better.

Yeahhhhh you say that but I still end up dealing with multiple groups of EP all the time. So your organization can't be that good.

As to the rest, again, spreading out inside a keep is an invalid tactic so I don't know why you keep harping on that point. You said it yourself, it's going to be death for a group pushing the inner. This isn't going to force groups like mine to spread out, it's just going to make me PvDoor a lot more.

And mate, if you don't think this will cause bigger zergs I just don't know what to tell you. I can take Bleakers any day of the week and watch EP absolutely PILE on it until they take it or they realize they're getting farmed and leave. Watch out if Haxus or another decent group gets on and takes Bleakers, the EP swarm that shows up to Aleswell can be INSANE. And this is against keeps they know they can take with half to 1/3 their numbers. Once people realize you just can't take these deathtraps without half a server there, they will bring half the server

As it stands I can tell the faction in /zone "VE is at Aleswell, push Ash." It's our fight, we're going to take it on and we're not going to pile on the faction and make it lag to hell and back. If I know I can't take that keep without another 40 people, god knows I won't be splitting the faction up. I'll do what VE always does: focus objectives. Only this time the objectives will be made so you can't take it without overwhelming numbers, so here comes the zerg

yay?

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I'm not saying that I don't like the fact that you can take a keep from 50 people. I'm saying that I don't like the fact that you can take it even though there is massive sieges deployed and even though you don't even have to actually focus siege operators down, you simply have to push in, spam purges, aoes, smart heals and barriers.

And all you have to do is spam left click amirite? Work on that siege spec. Click harder.

Again, if you have heavy sieges support, and just 8-12 people who know how to PvP, you're going to ruin 99% of everyone who pushes into that keep. You keep avoiding that and I'm going to keep saying it. Get a few competent PvPers together, play a massive group-based MMO in a half-way decent group and watch the magic happen. Relying on siege to fix your problems is just silly.

When I reffer to people focusing on siege operators, there is two approaches and you mixed them both in your explanations. First one is when you send vampire nightblades to deal with people dropping oil on the catwalk. Ask Oniric if you don't believe me, we've done it plenty of times and it works like a charm. Second approach is to have one hand shield tanks in your setup who charge siege operators as you push them and distract them to make sure they don't use their siege again. Talcyndl can talk to you about it. He has always been great at doing such a role.

Again, I'm curious how they well get past these choke-points of death with all the freaking siege on it, how they will stay alive in all those enemies, and why those enemies won't just keep on doing what they're doing. No one is afraid of a tanky DK or a glass-cannon NB when they have 30 people around them. Nor should they be. Anyone who knows anything runs Kags now, they'll just rez if you get a lucky kill. Literally does not matter.

It's a bad and unreliable strategy. It's only useful against PvPers so inexperienced that you shouldnt expend the effort on them in the first place. So, again, bad and unreliable.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

@Fengrush - AOE cap

Watched the stream. All of it. Good discussion, but man....you continue to beat a dead horse with the AOE cap.

Let me break it down...
1) In some form there has to be an AOE cap. Maybe 6 is to little, but it has to be there.
2) The DK video Sypher showed to try to give and example of how the AOE cap is a negative. I'm sorry, that DK should die everytime in that situation. First he leaped from the tower onto a capture flag, that should be some fall damage. Second, the group capturing the flag has to be in close proximity to capture the flag, so the AOE cap works exactly as intended here. Perfect reason why the AOE cap should exist.
3) If you run with a group of 4 and encounter a group of 24 with half a brain, your group of 4 should die EVERYTIME. It's straight out numbers and dps. If I'm in the group of 24 and we're all mic'ed and your group of 4 gets the jump, first thing I do is shout 'spread out' as much as possible given the area. Then I identify the healer in your group of 4, if none then I take out the biggest threat first, 'focus 24 dps on Fengrush and burn him down'. If your attack somehow took out 10 of us to start, never happen on a org grp, but fine 'focus 14 dps on Fengrush'. Your out of the picture, on to the next one. Eventually your group will lose to any half way decent organized, large group.

What you get pissed about is that you run into large pugs and still get beat, or get unexpected results, and throw out AOE cap as the reason for your demise. Bottomline, the game would be designed wrong if you are able to take out 5x the amount of players with a substantially smaller group.

4) Moving on to the AOE cap. Let's throw out a real world example. Gernade fragmentation. You throw a grenade into a group of soldiers, the fragmentation is going to effect the immediate area of where the grenade landed. The outwards fragmentation of the grenade, the shrapnel, is going to spray out and effect other soldiers but to a lesser degree because the bodies around the gernades impact area took a majority of the damage. The soldiers on the outer perimeter of the grenade blast may not get hit at all depending on distance.

Now, maybe you say 'it's a video game, we're fukin magical, we can shoot lighting out of our hands....real world shouldn't apply'. Then let's look at a popular gaming engine and see how it works. This developer goes through a lot of tech speak and coding practices, so not to bore you(I don't know your line of work)...you can fast forward to 6:45 and listen how he explains the AOE impact that the grenade has based on the code methods and variables provided by the Unity engine. The Unity engine itself has methods(functions) that support AOE impact and how much it damages players not directly at the area of impact.

http://youtu.be/PVfXDvfn8hs

Again, if it's boring bs, it is what it is, I've been coding for over 20 years and I get the reasoning behind what ZOS wants to do with AOE caps.

So you say, 'well ball groups are all at the point of impact, they should all take the damage from my aoe'. They should take MORE damage, but not all. If we go back to the real world example, bodies will shield other bodies therefore limiting the damage to other people in the area of effect. So a simplistic AOE cap simulates this, 6 get all the damage, the others get 50% less damage, etc. THIS is where the problem lies with how ZOS is approaching the AOE issue.

How to fix it?
Ball groups would NEVER exist if there was player collision detection, more specifically players should not be able to walk through each other. You implement that, you eliminate ball groups. Period, the end. If they still want to tightly pack...good luck moving. The players in the center of the mass would be trapped like their in a mosh pit. No ones going anywhere.

Of course the reason ZOS and other developers don't have collision implemented for players is griefing. Want to get into the bank? ...not happening cause some fools are afk parked in front of the bank door. Wanna visit the guild traders?...nope, a circle of afk players surround the traders. In PVP...Want storm a keep? Forget it cause now ball groups just turned into old fashion civil war tactics. Frontline, next line, next line, next line...100 players stacked in lines of 10. Better get the sieges out and prepare for a 3 hour war on a single keep.

ZOS can't add collision detection on players where they would be solid objects, so they need to have a AOE cap to spread damage out. Is 6 the right number? Not sure....is 6 the magic number for the long term planned arena? 6v6? Maybe that's why it's set at this number at this time.

Long read, but I'd be surprised if Eric said anything different...if he actually ever speaks on the topic.

-Uber

I kinda started skipping the second half of the post becuase youre saying people shouldnt win 1:5 just because.


Your solution is they should put in player collison - theres a reason it was never put in the game: 1) performance 2) they dont want players to block others and *troll*. I like collision, but its not happening.

Cool, thanks for glossing over it. *** it then. I pointed out a actual gaming engine that incorporates AOE cap for a reason. I pointed out why collision detection won't work. But you go ahead and keep whining about ball groups, makes for great podcasts.

Absolutely right, there shouldn't be a game design in where evenly skilled people could win a battle 1v5. Those 5 skilled pvp players should be able to, within the design of the game, be able to roll the 1vx. No god damn AOE should be a nuke, leveling an entire group. That's just a one-button win mechanic. Pointless.

You wanna continue to run sewers and gank noobs, go for it, but the AOE cap is there and you'll have to figure out how to work around it. I'll be interested to see what the new complaint is once arena rolls around in 2017.

Its actually pointed out evenly skilled players in a 1v5 scenario will likely never ever win - thats been said on most of the podcasts. Thats not the issue - its AOE caps protecting people who would otherwise win.

There is a not missing somewhere.

Ok fine Ill go back and fix it!

Derra wrote: »

Nice podcast again!

One point though: Why the hell would anyone duel on a no cp campaign? Like honestly if someone told me to come duel or have a tournament on a no cp campaign i would not participate because:

It requires completely different builds. It requires completely different gear. It has no resemblance to "real" pvp encounters. You can´t test anything there. In my opinion it makes no sense at all - i would never join that personally.
You´d have to pay me a million gold and i would consider it (because that´s what i would have to invest in the first place to get a working setup - crafting a complete sustain setup with seducer).

Solution to low CP players should be cadwells silver + gold when completed putting you at 40% of the current cp cap (whatever amount you need for that).