Never saw much problem with Veteran Ranks. Just a fancy name for the slower levels after 50. VR14 really just meant level 63. And continuing to raise that top level as more content is added is not a problem, IMO.

I have much more problem with CPs. Not by themselves, mind you. They act as a secondary levelling thing. But that they are account-wide, punishing new players compared to veteran ones pretty severely. At least unless you start to earn them from level 1, instead of VR1.

Will having CP instead of VR be better? No clue, whatsoever.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

For one thing we have no knowledge of if items with higher CP requirements will be better than those without them.

Logically, why would items with higher CP requirements NOT be better than those without them?

Zeni has to appease the grinders who currently sit at or near the CP cap.

I think "maxed CP" gear should have minimally better stats than "lowest CP" gear. But I doubt CP grinders will be content with that as they consciously equate their CP advantage with "skill."

Those are all assumptions based on your individual perspective, not logical conclusions. I definitely think ZOS could mess this up but based on what limited information is available it still looks to be an overall improvement over the current veteran rank system as the amount of necessary grinding will be reduced (especially for alts) and the number of places with max level enemies would increase. As for item balance, there is absolutely no information on this subjecct so we will have to wait and see how it will affect crafting and drop quality. Making any conclusions about items at this point would just be pure speculation.

An account has access to 8 character slots, at the moment each vet level requires 850.000 xp.

(850,000x16)x8=108,800,000 That is the maximum xp required to get all 8 character to V16.

We know from looking at the achievements that the intention is to have 900 CP. At the moment, 1 CP is earned from 400,000 XP.

400,000x900=360,000,000 for the whole account. Remember CP can only be earned at level 50.

Is Gordon Brown doing the maths here?

You do know that CP were rescaled with Orsinium, right? They most certainly do not cost 400k each currently. In fact they do not cost 400k until the ~445th point under the current CP system. Thanks for the laugh though.

And above 450+ the cost is even higher, I'm sure I said on another post that it's an average (I assume you know what an average is?), but thanks for the laugh with your response anyway. But feel free to correct me with the actual grand total that you worked out showing your calculations of course, otherwise your words are nothing.

As for enlightenment, what is the guarantee that that will still be in the game, they have worked on a new formula for people to catch up.

So when you posted that 400,000 * 900 = 360,000,000 you were demonstrating what exactly? Please help me to understand how your math is even remotely accurate according to the current system. 400k is no longer the average CP exp (unless the definition of the term has changed since I went to school). If it was then for each CP above 798 you would need to increase the cost appropriate to how much every point below 798 was reduced, which is not what happens.

Put your figures up for public scrutiny then we'll talk. And if you read the thread about the CP change they you would know that getting CP over 600 requires a lot more. But I also remember that they said that it still works out as the same xp just that you need less to start with.

Bottom line you want to argue about my maths, then put YOURS UP!

Here is a graph that explains it in an incredibly simple manner. I assume you know how to read a graph and tell that the average is nowhere near 400k. I will consider this matter settled unless you want to refute ZOS' formula with your own math.

EDIT: Feel free to play around with the limits of the graph but it really makes understanding how the current CP system works and will work when the CP cap is increased. Also, I did not include any penalties for being above cap but all you need to do is multiply the required CP exp by 1.5.

You need to redo your graph mate, your Y is going up in increments of 100k, and your X goes up in increments of 1,000. I assume Y is for xp and X is for CP. According to your graph you only need 90,000 xp to earn your 900th CP and only 100 xp to earn your first, 200 xp to earn your second and so on. Why am I having trouble believing that.....

Next time I won't be nice.

At least he provided a graph with the current formula. You have not provided any evidence that the average of all CPs is 400,000 per point to earn under the current system so far. You just keep restating it.

Also, keep in mind the formula for the catch up mechanism is likely to change again the next time the cap is raised.

How anyone can still support the current model that requires grinding every character you want to play end game content with to VR16 to be viable is beyond me. You all either must play just one character or have a full stable of them already.

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

More difficult content rewards more powerful gear. That way, you are appropriately rewarded for the content you have done, and don't need to have attained a specific arbitrary number to be able to actually use it. (See my example of a player with 2 CPs soloing Vet DSA but not being able to use the rewarded gear because it requires 160 CPs.) I guess that is kind of like raid progression, but it would be considerably less restrictive than what that directly implies, as there is a lot more content than just the raids that you would get gear from.

The problem with that approach, just like with raid progression, is only a tiny minority of the player base ever get to experience "end game" and wear the top tier gear. Not everyone will be able to complete the more difficult challenges, and future releases of challenging content will be based on having completed the previous challenging content (i.e. the dreaded gear treadmill). With each DLC, fewer and fewer people will be wearing top tier gear.

The current system, allows almost everyone to eventually wear top tier gear, no matter how times they release new DLC, which is how it should be.

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

More difficult content rewards more powerful gear. That way, you are appropriately rewarded for the content you have done, and don't need to have attained a specific arbitrary number to be able to actually use it. (See my example of a player with 2 CPs soloing Vet DSA but not being able to use the rewarded gear because it requires 160 CPs.) I guess that is kind of like raid progression, but it would be considerably less restrictive than what that directly implies, as there is a lot more content than just the raids that you would get gear from.

The problem with that approach, just like with raid progression, is only a tiny minority of the player base ever get to experience "end game" and wear the top tier gear. Not everyone will be able to complete the more difficult challenges, and future releases of challenging content will be based on having completed the previous challenging content (i.e. the dreaded gear treadmill). With each DLC, fewer and fewer people will be wearing top tier gear.

The current system, allows almost everyone to eventually wear top tier gear, no matter how times they release new DLC, which is how it should be.

Say there are currently 4* ways to get VR14 gear; Trials, PvP, Group Dungeons, and Crafting. This wouldn't change; there would still be 4 different ways to get the top-tier gear. And there would be no reason to complete a previous round of content before the next one if you didn't want to, just as you can go straight from V10 gear to V16 gear now.
(*4 is an example, not a fact)

Why don't they just stop gear progression at what it is now and use cp as the sole method to progress?

Making the gear stronger than what it is now and givig it a co requirement is no different from vr.

The upcoming change actually makes future CS race cahnge pointless. 1-50 is something everybody can do. And I'm pretty sure the price will be so high, it's not gonna be worth it for most ppl.

ZoS should:

- Make gear tiered.. drops < crafted = group dungeon < raid dungeon. Max requirement would just be level based (max = 50)
- Keep vet ranks, but un-cap it (for the attribute point + skill point)
- Do w/e with CP, I would prefer no-cap

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

More difficult content rewards more powerful gear. That way, you are appropriately rewarded for the content you have done, and don't need to have attained a specific arbitrary number to be able to actually use it. (See my example of a player with 2 CPs soloing Vet DSA but not being able to use the rewarded gear because it requires 160 CPs.) I guess that is kind of like raid progression, but it would be considerably less restrictive than what that directly implies, as there is a lot more content than just the raids that you would get gear from.

The problem with that approach, just like with raid progression, is only a tiny minority of the player base ever get to experience "end game" and wear the top tier gear. Not everyone will be able to complete the more difficult challenges, and future releases of challenging content will be based on having completed the previous challenging content (i.e. the dreaded gear treadmill). With each DLC, fewer and fewer people will be wearing top tier gear.

The current system, allows almost everyone to eventually wear top tier gear, no matter how times they release new DLC, which is how it should be.

Say there are currently 4* ways to get VR14 gear; Trials, PvP, Group Dungeons, and Crafting. This wouldn't change; there would still be 4 different ways to get the top-tier gear. And there would be no reason to complete a previous round of content before the next one if you didn't want to, just as you can go straight from V10 gear to V16 gear now.
(*4 is an example, not a fact)

So again, you're suggesting no end game progression. Hit level 50, pay a crafter to make you top end gear, done. As I said before, Guild Wars 2 tried this approach. I leveled 3 characters to cap, played PvP for a month, got bored, and left forever. No thank you.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

For one thing we have no knowledge of if items with higher CP requirements will be better than those without them.

Logically, why would items with higher CP requirements NOT be better than those without them?

Zeni has to appease the grinders who currently sit at or near the CP cap.

I think "maxed CP" gear should have minimally better stats than "lowest CP" gear. But I doubt CP grinders will be content with that as they consciously equate their CP advantage with "skill."

Those are all assumptions based on your individual perspective, not logical conclusions. I definitely think ZOS could mess this up but based on what limited information is available it still looks to be an overall improvement over the current veteran rank system as the amount of necessary grinding will be reduced (especially for alts) and the number of places with max level enemies would increase. As for item balance, there is absolutely no information on this subjecct so we will have to wait and see how it will affect crafting and drop quality. Making any conclusions about items at this point would just be pure speculation.

An account has access to 8 character slots, at the moment each vet level requires 850.000 xp.

(850,000x16)x8=108,800,000 That is the maximum xp required to get all 8 character to V16.

We know from looking at the achievements that the intention is to have 900 CP. At the moment, 1 CP is earned from 400,000 XP.

400,000x900=360,000,000 for the whole account. Remember CP can only be earned at level 50.

Is Gordon Brown doing the maths here?

You do know that CP were rescaled with Orsinium, right? They most certainly do not cost 400k each currently. In fact they do not cost 400k until the ~445th point under the current CP system. Thanks for the laugh though.

And above 450+ the cost is even higher, I'm sure I said on another post that it's an average (I assume you know what an average is?), but thanks for the laugh with your response anyway. But feel free to correct me with the actual grand total that you worked out showing your calculations of course, otherwise your words are nothing.

As for enlightenment, what is the guarantee that that will still be in the game, they have worked on a new formula for people to catch up.

So when you posted that 400,000 * 900 = 360,000,000 you were demonstrating what exactly? Please help me to understand how your math is even remotely accurate according to the current system. 400k is no longer the average CP exp (unless the definition of the term has changed since I went to school). If it was then for each CP above 798 you would need to increase the cost appropriate to how much every point below 798 was reduced, which is not what happens.

Put your figures up for public scrutiny then we'll talk. And if you read the thread about the CP change they you would know that getting CP over 600 requires a lot more. But I also remember that they said that it still works out as the same xp just that you need less to start with.

Bottom line you want to argue about my maths, then put YOURS UP!

Here is a graph that explains it in an incredibly simple manner. I assume you know how to read a graph and tell that the average is nowhere near 400k. I will consider this matter settled unless you want to refute ZOS' formula with your own math.

EDIT: Feel free to play around with the limits of the graph but it really makes understanding how the current CP system works and will work when the CP cap is increased. Also, I did not include any penalties for being above cap but all you need to do is multiply the required CP exp by 1.5.

You need to redo your graph mate, your Y is going up in increments of 100k, and your X goes up in increments of 1,000. I assume Y is for xp and X is for CP. According to your graph you only need 90,000 xp to earn your 900th CP and only 100 xp to earn your first, 200 xp to earn your second and so on. Why am I having trouble believing that.....

Next time I won't be nice.

The link displays the graph fine for me but here is the formula to insert so you can view it properly: ((x/(501^0.995))+0.085)*400000

Set the x limit to 501 and the y limit to 500k. To convert this to a 900 CP cap, just change both 501 values to 900.

I'm sorry it did not display for you but there is no need to make idle threats, you are wrong in this case and I'm trying to help you understand your mistake. If you input that formula it will be blatantly obvious that 400k is nowhere near the average CP cost which is why I noted that your previous formula of 900*400k means absolutely nothing.

EDIT: Try this link: http://fooplot.com/plot/fzphog0vzl

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

More difficult content rewards more powerful gear. That way, you are appropriately rewarded for the content you have done, and don't need to have attained a specific arbitrary number to be able to actually use it. (See my example of a player with 2 CPs soloing Vet DSA but not being able to use the rewarded gear because it requires 160 CPs.) I guess that is kind of like raid progression, but it would be considerably less restrictive than what that directly implies, as there is a lot more content than just the raids that you would get gear from.

The problem with that approach, just like with raid progression, is only a tiny minority of the player base ever get to experience "end game" and wear the top tier gear. Not everyone will be able to complete the more difficult challenges, and future releases of challenging content will be based on having completed the previous challenging content (i.e. the dreaded gear treadmill). With each DLC, fewer and fewer people will be wearing top tier gear.

The current system, allows almost everyone to eventually wear top tier gear, no matter how times they release new DLC, which is how it should be.

Say there are currently 4* ways to get VR14 gear; Trials, PvP, Group Dungeons, and Crafting. This wouldn't change; there would still be 4 different ways to get the top-tier gear. And there would be no reason to complete a previous round of content before the next one if you didn't want to, just as you can go straight from V10 gear to V16 gear now.
(*4 is an example, not a fact)

So again, you're suggesting no end game progression. Hit level 50, pay a crafter to make you top end gear, done. As I said before, Guild Wars 2 tried this approach. I leveled 3 characters to cap, played PvP for a month, got bored, and left forever. No thank you.

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean. There needs to be something to work towards, and if you can get it off a crafter then that's not there. I was thinking initially that you would have to work for the mats in order to craft the gear, but if you just pay for it then you've skipped the "content" that I was basing that on.

The problem with tying it to any arbitrary number though is that it eventually makes lower tier gear useless. Here I was trying to go along with the suggestion that new gear should be more powerful, but I would much prefer a system where new gear has new effects rather than more power. That way, none of the V1-V14 gear becomes useless, as it would all have the same base stats (befitting the removal of the system which caused major stat separation), and each material would instead provide some unique effect (a bit like traits and enchants, but more wide reaching than those). Alternatively, there's the idea that the gear itself isn't locked to CPs, but that the gear you are rewarded is tied to your CP when you get it, so that you always get something you can use and it would scale up with you (or you could "upgrade" it to the next tier without having to recraft it or get it to drop again). That would also stop lower tier gear becoming useless because you'd be able to make sure it stays viable for you.

Re. the bold part, the way players treat crafters in this game is kind of ridiculous. If I needed a crafter to make something for me I'd be planning to pay them a nice tip. However I find most people expect the crafter to do it for free if they can provide mats. That's cheap and lame.

There is a lot to "work for" in this game, but of course it's going to seem "too easy" to those who get their stuff made for free without needing to expend the effort leveling crafting skills themselves.

Enodoc wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

michaelarryn wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with removing veteran ranks is that ZOS is now making champion points the way of being leveled for gear. And yes, given Champion Points are account wide and can be gained by any character of VR status, the issue here isn't Champions Points, its the additional grind players would have to go towards beyond level 50. It was why Veteran Rank was bad in the first place- who wants to hit level 50 and still have to gain additional levels just to hit level cap? Its the reason why I don't have a single max VR character yet...its the reason why a good bit of casual players quit too because the task of going from VR 1 to VR 16 was a little more troublesome that 1-50. Now, if we have to gain Champion points to gain gear wouldn't we essentially be replacing one bad system with another?

Bottom Line:
Veteran Ranks: BAD
Champion Points: GOOD
Gear Based on # of Champion Points: HECK NO

So you're suggesting gear progression stops at level 50? Because that would be a disaster for ESO.

I don't think he's suggesting that; you can have gear progression without tying gear into how many CPs you have.

How else would you do it? The only other method I can think of is tying it to raid progression. That would be worse than tying it to some sort of leveling system.

More difficult content rewards more powerful gear. That way, you are appropriately rewarded for the content you have done, and don't need to have attained a specific arbitrary number to be able to actually use it. (See my example of a player with 2 CPs soloing Vet DSA but not being able to use the rewarded gear because it requires 160 CPs.) I guess that is kind of like raid progression, but it would be considerably less restrictive than what that directly implies, as there is a lot more content than just the raids that you would get gear from.

The problem with that approach, just like with raid progression, is only a tiny minority of the player base ever get to experience "end game" and wear the top tier gear. Not everyone will be able to complete the more difficult challenges, and future releases of challenging content will be based on having completed the previous challenging content (i.e. the dreaded gear treadmill). With each DLC, fewer and fewer people will be wearing top tier gear.

The current system, allows almost everyone to eventually wear top tier gear, no matter how times they release new DLC, which is how it should be.

Say there are currently 4* ways to get VR14 gear; Trials, PvP, Group Dungeons, and Crafting. This wouldn't change; there would still be 4 different ways to get the top-tier gear. And there would be no reason to complete a previous round of content before the next one if you didn't want to, just as you can go straight from V10 gear to V16 gear now.
(*4 is an example, not a fact)

So again, you're suggesting no end game progression. Hit level 50, pay a crafter to make you top end gear, done. As I said before, Guild Wars 2 tried this approach. I leveled 3 characters to cap, played PvP for a month, got bored, and left forever. No thank you.

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean. There needs to be something to work towards, and if you can get it off a crafter then that's not there. I was thinking initially that you would have to work for the mats in order to craft the gear, but if you just pay for it then you've skipped the "content" that I was basing that on.

The problem with tying it to any arbitrary number though is that it eventually makes lower tier gear useless. Here I was trying to go along with the suggestion that new gear should be more powerful, but I would much prefer a system where new gear has new effects rather than more power. That way, none of the V1-V14 gear becomes useless, as it would all have the same base stats (befitting the removal of the system which caused major stat separation), and each material would instead provide some unique effect (a bit like traits and enchants, but more wide reaching than those). Alternatively, there's the idea that the gear itself isn't locked to CPs, but that the gear you are rewarded is tied to your CP when you get it, so that you always get something you can use and it would scale up with you (or you could "upgrade" it to the next tier without having to recraft it or get it to drop again). That would also stop lower tier gear becoming useless because you'd be able to make sure it stays viable for you.

Re. the bold part, the way players treat crafters in this game is kind of ridiculous. If I needed a crafter to make something for me I'd be planning to pay them a nice tip. However I find most people expect the crafter to do it for free if they can provide mats. That's cheap and lame.

There is a lot to "work for" in this game, but of course it's going to seem "too easy" to those who get their stuff made for free without needing to expend the effort leveling crafting skills themselves.

I completely agree, which is why I suggested prior to the post you quoted that crafting would be sufficient as content to work towards and one way to get the top-tier gear. And that would apply whether it's you working on gathering the mats to craft yourself, or gathering the mats to give to your dedicated crafter. But in the event of the crafter already having the mats and not requiring much from you, that content sink, and that gear-as-reward-for-effort(-not-rank) that I was basing the idea on goes away.

Ahh I see, sorry I missed your earlier post. I really am thankful crafted gear is nearly as good as dungeon dropped gear-- as someone who doesn't run dungeons and never plans to I wouldn't be playing this game otherwise. But yeah, there needs to be greater reward for crafters with regard to their own crafted and bound gear.

Yes you know - i was just thinking: I do anything I am able for friends/guildies - but some of the 'Take it for granted' nature some people have toward Crafters and all the time it takes to get 9 traits in everything etc actually really bugs me.

I have 9 in all woodwork, most light armour and master enchanter etc and I would never allow someone to treat me the way i see some people do in game.

Be nice to your crafters.

Twilix01 wrote: »

I generally craft stuff for free if materials are provided, but that's only for friends and guildmates really. I'm not really out to make gold but if someone starts being an impatient snob to me I'll happily overcharge them for everything. I just love crafting things really.

Islyn wrote: »

Yes you know - i was just thinking: I do anything I am able for friends/guildies - but some of the 'Take it for granted' nature some people have toward Crafters and all the time it takes to get 9 traits in everything etc actually really bugs me.
I have 9 in all woodwork, most light armour and master enchanter etc and I would never allow someone to treat me the way i see some people do in game.
Be nice to your crafters.

This is really what I was getting at; crafting doesn't provide much in the way of XP, but people who put in the effort to do their research, gather their mats and so on should be rewarded appropriately and comparatively to someone who spends a similar amount of time/effort to run a dungeon. You put in the effort to get the top tier gear by crafting it, or you put in the effort to get the top tier gear by defeating the dungeon boss. You don't need to tie gear into CPs -- the progression exists outside of that if you can be bothered to work for it.

Here is how gear progression could work based on difficulty of content rather than arbitrary numbers:

Mats (only Blacksmithing/Woodworking shown here):
Calcinium/Birch -> Galatite/Ash -> Quicksilver/Mahogany -> Voidstone/Nightwood -> Rubedite/Ruby Ash

Current (VR) Gear Progression:
VR1-3 -> VR4-6 -> VR7-8 -> VR9-14 -> VR15-16

Comparative Group Dungeon Difficulty Gear Progression:
Normal -> Veteran -> DSA -> WGT/ICP -> vDSA

Comparative Questing Difficulty Gear Progression:
Silver 1 -> Silver 2 -> Silver/Gold 3 -> Gold 4 -> Gold 5

Comparative Trials Difficulty Gear Progression:
AA/HRC -> AA/HRC Hard -> SO -> SO Hard -> (New TG Trial)

Comparative PvP Difficulty Gear Progression:
Gear Vendors -> Rewards for the Worthy -> Reward Tier 1 -> Reward Tier 2 -> Reward Tier 3

Comparative Crafting Difficulty Gear Progression:
Common Mats -> Uncommon Mats -> More Uncommon Mats -> Rare Mats -> More Rare Mats

Under each play style, the more difficult the content is, the higher the tier of gear you get as a reward. Every playstyle has the opportunity to get a version of top tier gear, as they do now, but none of that depends on how many CPs you have. Since it doesn't matter how many CPs you have when you do the content, it shouldn't matter how many CPs you have when it comes to using your reward. (It also shouldn't be based on how much XP you have earned, which it is for VRs and would be for CPs, since XP gain is not equal across playstyles.)