spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Da *** does a PVP podcast need a PVE perspective for?

frozywozy wrote: »

Just finished watching the podcast. Great discussions and I'm looking forward into seeing Brian Wheeler at the next official ESO Live. So again, thanks for your time investments as streamers into this guys.

Only one point I disagree and no offense @sypher but I don't like Animation cancelling at all. Not because I cannot do it but because I don't think it is right. For me it's just a broken mechanic and if the game gets someday to the point where Animation cancelling is a must in any build to be competitive in PvP, I'll just stop playing it.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Just finished watching the podcast. Great discussions and I'm looking forward into seeing Brian Wheeler at the next official ESO Live. So again, thanks for your time investments as streamers into this guys.

Only one point I disagree and no offense @sypher but I don't like Animation cancelling at all. Not because I cannot do it but because I don't think it is right. For me it's just a broken mechanic and if the game gets someday to the point where Animation cancelling is a must in any build to be competitive in PvP, I'll just stop playing it.

I agree about the animation canceling, in fact there are many new players and some old players that don't even know what is or how to do it, where is the in game tutorial for animation canceling ? so players could start using it from day one of play.

I still have hope there are changes coming to animation canceling they did have an animator on in the July ESO live, that said they were working on changes to animation canceling have not heard anything since and hope it is something still in the works.

Jura23 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

I haven't played SWTOR for nearly two years now. Is it better game now than it was then? I left because PvE was no more challenge for me (unlike in ESO) and PvP was only about stacking one stat on gear with no variety in that.

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

comicbrick wrote: »

I would like to see district/sewer control points. The Arena, within the arena district, transformed into an actual arena 2v2/4v4. Also, I think the sewers should be max group size of 8.

JamilaRaj wrote: »

I fail to see why ZOS should have allocate resources on revitalizing the IC and especially to make it somehow long-term, replayable content. It makes no sense to improve the DLC even if it required no effort whatsoever. Might not have been on purpose, but is the IC empty now? Great! It will not compete with future DLCs. ZOS sure can design DLCs in such a way they are de facto mandatory purchases regardless, but if DLC is fun for a few weeks on its own, it is the best possible scenario.

Xsorus wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

I haven't played SWTOR for nearly two years now. Is it better game now than it was then? I left because PvE was no more challenge for me (unlike in ESO) and PvP was only about stacking one stat on gear with no variety in that.

I play it for the expansions they release then just let it sit till the next one; they usually offer promotions where if you subscribe for certain amount of time before expansions you get stuff, since they do it so often I just don't bother in unsubscribing. Though now that they've switched to the new story setup it shouldn't be that bad. Pvp wise I stopped playing it long ago. Though if I could play nothing but huttball is seriously consider playing it full time; I just cannot stand any of the other maps like civil war for example; which I consider one of the worst type of bg maps you can have in a game. Basically any type of map that requires a player to sit in on spot and defend a point is going to be a *** map in a game.

Xsorus wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

When i played WoW i spent 90% of the time pvping. I dont ever remember avoiding people in BGs, but i guess things have changed from WSG, AB, and EOTS.

Nope; nothing has changed... If you ever used a bot at all in WoW you can instantly tell who was botting in those BGs; I'd say when wrath was out probably about 30 to 40 % of the people you encountered in a bg was a bot.
As for avoiding players; ab was all about holding points and avoiding players. Most of the time you'd be sitting at a point sometimes the entire matchup waiting for a few players to trickle up; eots was same way. Wsg could be same way as well depending on how many bots ya had on the team.
AV was about completely avoiding the enemy players... Which is ironic because the AV they released at the start was their best bg to date... But nerfs over the years changed it to rush boss and kill as fast as possible type mechanic.

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

I missed this. Absolutely false. Bots were eliminated in 2005-2006. Blizzard actually pays attention to a game that has sub customers.

This shows you haven't played WoW for some time.

This video was from less than a year ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHeSHT2ZDnU

Blizzard banned thousands of accounts since then for using the honorbuddy program; but it's an ongoing battle. The people that make these programs, call them hacks if you want, are always updating them to evade the latest detection software. Their forums are open to the public and they have subforums for most of the big MMOs out there, just to give you an idea of the problem.

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

I haven't played SWTOR for nearly two years now. Is it better game now than it was then? I left because PvE was no more challenge for me (unlike in ESO) and PvP was only about stacking one stat on gear with no variety in that.

I play it for the expansions they release then just let it sit till the next one; they usually offer promotions where if you subscribe for certain amount of time before expansions you get stuff, since they do it so often I just don't bother in unsubscribing. Though now that they've switched to the new story setup it shouldn't be that bad. Pvp wise I stopped playing it long ago. Though if I could play nothing but huttball is seriously consider playing it full time; I just cannot stand any of the other maps like civil war for example; which I consider one of the worst type of bg maps you can have in a game. Basically any type of map that requires a player to sit in on spot and defend a point is going to be a *** map in a game.

So wait, you don't even play SWTOR PvP anymore? Yet you praise it like its the next coming of CounterStrike. What 'boggles my mind' is how you have no clue on what 'good' pvp is. This is evident when you dismiss WoW's PvP and it's MASSIVE success and playerbase.

I think this is more about you've played WoW for a year, didn't like the style and left. Then you jumped on anything that wasn't WoW. All MMOs that came after 2004 have folded or had to become FTP to survive. It's only a matter of time for SWTOR.

Kinda done with this disagreement because you don't even play PvP in the game you praise PvP for.

Xsorus wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

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FENGRUSH wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

As I enjoy the podcasts, these are all very talented, small scale PvPers, Sypher and Fengrush builds are nice....for pvp. But they hardly represent the entire community across PC and console. If you really want to get a PVE presence, bring Deltia into the mix. He can bring a lot to the table and actually discuss vet dungeon PVE and class skills for PVE.

As it stands, these guys have biased opinions based on their ability or inability to perform in PvP. AOE cap, Zerg, ball, broken skills for pvp, etc etc. The problem with this bias is that the classes can't be fixed or balanced for just pvp or pve, they are balanced for both. If abilities are nerfed, they get nerfed regardless of the enemy, player or mob. This has to be considered before ZOS acts and changes something.

Remove AOE cap? How about just create battlegrounds that only have 12 players total? Objective based pvp. AOE cap doesn't impact pve, so it won't be removed. It will just be modified. The core problem is that these pvpers are trying to take out large groups in Cyrodiil solo or in groups of 4, they get zerged and get rolled. Their AOE only affects 6 people in the Zerg. Well, in the end....you really shouldn't expect 4 players to take out a group of 24.

Stop Zergs? Well....Cyrodiil is designed for large group pvp, it is siege warfare, not a battleground. Numbers will always crush small groups. Zergs cause performance problems? Maybe you should try console, 50v50...no problem on console. The game can handle it, PC ESO just isn't optimized like console was. Console removed a lot of the flare and draw distance, console renders players only when they get closer...otherwise they are black silhouettes. Graphics aren't as sharp and detailed on console, but...hey...Gameplay over eye candy. It's a good balance on console.

With all that said, if we DON'T have Twitch streamers like this going above and beyond making these Podcasts, this game won't be saved. MMOs require active communities with active players, not casuals. ZOS needs to listen and act quickly or they will lose their core commnutiy that was here from day one. MMOs need their core communities to survive and evolve, bringing new players to the game. How the hell would I know? I was a day one player in WoW, 2004. I played for 10 years straight through all the xpacs and witnessed the cycles of players that stayed, that left, that raged for changes. This is nothing new, the difference is that Blizzard listened and acted quickly, evolving to match their player's needs.

ZOS devs and designers finally posting on the forum is encouraging. Hopefully we will see results.

It was stressed a lot on there that we dont want to remove large groups from Cyro - that is how its designed, how its always been, and I actually enjoy fighting on a large battlefield. The difference between a lot of numbers and ball groups is what the meta has become though. You have to acknowledge and understand that difference to understand any of the points being made there.

Theres nothing wrong with removing AOE caps. As far as PVE perspective goes (it does effect it, you mistated that) - I think we can shed plenty of light on it. The greatest impact youre talking about here is trials where AOE is used against trash mobs. Solution is to amp trash mobs defenses or increase mobs resistance against AOE abilities. Its not rocket science to tackle these issues.

AOE caps, broken skills, ball groups - these issues effect everyone. To say were biased in a negative way would be misguided. As I said on the podcast, Id hope the game would be moved back towards equality in terms of balance. As it stands today, its actually imbalanced and favoring large groups. Large groups get more AP, passive defenses and ultimately the ball group style doesnt help with performance - it hurts it. Making the game equal and discouraging ball groups would 1) help performance and 2) make things fair. Personally, itd make PvP a lot more interesting too - but thats just a bonus on trying to make the game playable again.

Hey man, I get it, and I'm with you on most points. But there is no denying the podcast is all pure pvpers. I enjoyed watching your stream the other week when you had the day off and grinded all day on Maelstrom Arena(another bow please), but you were heading right back to pvp once you got the weapons you wanted. You said it yourself, You focus on pvp, and the opinions of the podcast originate from a pvp perspective.

PvP != PVE.

Trash mobs aren't really considered an AOE burden, so if you're hitting 6 out of 20..you move 1 inch and you hit another 6. Again, the AOE cap is really a issue in pvp.

I'm sure you have seen Deltia stream before, when he runs the training sessions on how to maximize dps on bosses, right rotations, boss phases, skill optimization for pve.....all PVE....it's a whole different perspective on what other parts of the game are working and what isn't.

Again...as far as performance on PC, I can assure you ZOS has the answer, they did it for console, Cyrodiil is completely playable at all times no matter the number of people on console. ZOS knows what they need to do, but the end result would kill the visuals you have on PC. Texture maps, draw distance, models....all of it would need to go down several notches. Then they would reduce the particle effects and finally the chatter between the client and server for positional reference. In the end, not sure the PC player would like the downgrade.

You are never going to stop how people want to group up in Cyrodiil. Zerg, ball group, our small groups. Players will continue to play the way they play, regardless of the changes ZOS makes. Players will adapt and still Zerg and ball.

I'm tired of pushing the topic, but queued battlegrounds like any other true pvp game has, is the answer. It satisfies small scale, organized pvp, and it forces fixing skills to be more balanced and effective. WoW nailed it with MMO BGs, the model is out there, ZOS just has to make the rewards for Cyrodiil attractive enough so that if they do introduce BGs that Cyrodiil won't be a ghost town like IC already is.

Again, I think you guys are doing a great job in presenting a hardcore players perspective on the state of the game. I'm just pointing out the perspective is slanted and coming from a PVP mentality. I know SypherPK has tried to include PVE players in the discussion, you had the one guy on mic only the one week....but he never came back.

Anyways, you take the time to stream and podcast, it brings players to the game, ZOS knows this and in the end they should listen to what you have to say regardless.

Ummm...How about no...WoW most certainly did not nail it with MMO Bgs

In fact out of all the games released to date...WoW managed to do it the worst..

There has only been two games to date that have managed to make BGs somewhat decent in comparison to mass scale pvp

Warhammer Online and SWTOR (Huttball)

So building a game around that because you think AOE caps shouldn't be removed for some odd reason blows my mind..Since you can look at the game this was trying to copy (DAOC) and see it works just fine and can support all modes of PVP just fine.

I can give a *** if they remove AOE caps or not. That's not the root of the problem.

And if you're gonna argue against the most successful MMO of all time, I'm not gonna fight that battle. Warhammer came and went during WOW and SWTOR is now a free to play sandbox. Yet WoW can still justify a monthly sub to play and pull in over 5 million subscribers in this era of free to play MMOs with micro transactions.

And somehow Arenas in WoW (which orignated from the pvp balancing and fine tuning of WoW BGs) is a eSport for the past 5 years.

Yea....WoW got it wrong.

Nobody denies wow was successful. Still that is mainly due to pve and not the pvp part of the game. They certainly did not nail it with arenas/battlegrounds.
It´s solely an "esport" because wow has the playerbase to draw from in the first place (right time of release being the factor before all other here) and the money to keep people attracted / coming back over several years.

You can´t measure the quality of pvp by a games overall success (because mainly due to wow pvp became niche gameplay in mmos). If EA would not have been to greedy to continue paying the warhammer license i´d play warhammer bgs over wow any day of the week.

In terms of BGs Huttball in swtor was easily the best designed map to date in any game i´ve played (pretty much all western mmos since the release of daoc in 2002).

Also calling swtor a sandbox - do you know what that word means?

So because WoW has held a player base for 11 years, it's only because of its PVE....yea, ok.

SWTOR is becoming so unstructured and open, that I believe is where the sandbox term applies. Yea, sure there is still progression, but I can bypass a lot of it now. They are just trying to hold players. And you think EA is going to keep this MMO alive for much longer? I bet that license isn't cheap either.

I've made my point and don't want to derail the thread.

I will continue to say that what Sypher and the team is doing is very beneficial to the community and appreciated. It just needs a solid PVE perspective each week.

Yes, WOW has only held its playerbase for 11 years because of PVE....Here is how bad WoW pvp is....A Vast majority of the BGs were nothing but Bots or completely avoiding the enemy to try and win the map due to Mechanics...

Also SWTOR; which I keep an active subscription to at all times to play occasionally is no where near a Sandbox game; how you even come to that conclusion boggles my mind. Also you realize that SWTOR makes over $100 Million a year right? It is one of the most profitable MMOS out right now...

I haven't played SWTOR for nearly two years now. Is it better game now than it was then? I left because PvE was no more challenge for me (unlike in ESO) and PvP was only about stacking one stat on gear with no variety in that.

I play it for the expansions they release then just let it sit till the next one; they usually offer promotions where if you subscribe for certain amount of time before expansions you get stuff, since they do it so often I just don't bother in unsubscribing. Though now that they've switched to the new story setup it shouldn't be that bad. Pvp wise I stopped playing it long ago. Though if I could play nothing but huttball is seriously consider playing it full time; I just cannot stand any of the other maps like civil war for example; which I consider one of the worst type of bg maps you can have in a game. Basically any type of map that requires a player to sit in on spot and defend a point is going to be a *** map in a game.

So wait, you don't even play SWTOR PvP anymore? Yet you praise it like its the next coming of CounterStrike. What 'boggles my mind' is how you have no clue on what 'good' pvp is. This is evident when you dismiss WoW's PvP and it's MASSIVE success and playerbase.

I think this is more about you've played WoW for a year, didn't like the style and left. Then you jumped on anything that wasn't WoW. All MMOs that came after 2004 have folded or had to become FTP to survive. It's only a matter of time for SWTOR.

Kinda done with this disagreement because you don't even play PvP in the game you praise PvP for.

1. I explained why I don't play it anymore; huttball doesn't pop consistently. If it did I would most likely play swtor full time.. And that says a lot cause I don't care much for BGs anymore. What does pop 90% of the time is civil war which is a AB type map which is god awful.
2. Umm I played WoW through cataclysm; I did not bother playing any of the expansions after that. But i have I think 6 or 7 level 85s I think it was and a few 80s I never completed.

In regards to BGs swtor huttball is vastly superior to WoWs bgs and there have been multiple other MMOs I've played with better BGs as well.. Rift and warhammer online for example. Note that I only pvp in ESO because I prefer it's setup over BGs but it I had to pvp in any of them swtor would be it.. Wow would be dead last everytime... Cept maybe wildstar