Racials work in single player elder scrolls experiences, not an elder scrolls MMO

Thalmor-Nordmaster · November 2015

Thalmor> Elves>Magic>Bows> Cookies things that Elves are known for.

Nords>Cold>Hearty>Smelly>Dragons>Axes>Mead>Use Khajiit as Armor Liner. Things Nords are known for

Argonians> Shadow-scales > Swim> Sneaky

And so forth OP your choice is yours. My choice should not be of your concern. Unless you are willing to pay for my sub.

Miszou · November 2015

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

I have an Argonian DK tank..

Me too.

And really, I quite enjoy the increased swimming speed and I've become a rather good alchemist in my spare time.

Let these other scrubs wring every benefit they can from their standardized racial choice. Clearly they need the advantage.

nimander99 · November 2015

I have never selected a race to play based on its passives in an mmorpg, not once in the 17 years I've been playing mmo's.

SkorosMindkiller · November 2015

My MAG sorc is Altmer because she's version 5.0 (1.0 was a high-elf wizardesss in EverQuest). One of my Templars is an Impie because 1. I paid for Imperial Edition, so I had better make one and 2. version 1.0 was a human cleric in EQ. My STA NB is Argonian, because version 1.0 was an Iksar Necro. One of my DKs is a Nord because 1.0 was a "barbwar" in EQ. The other is an Argonian because she's the NBs sister (1.0 was also a monk on EQ test server). The other Templar is a Bosmer because 1.0 was a wood-elf druid in EQ. The MAG NB is a Dunmer because I didn't have one of those, and the STA sorc is a Redguard because I didn't have one of those either. I don't have a Breton, Orsimer, or Khajit because I ran out of char slots.

Tdroid · November 2015

Overall I don't mind the racials and the direction they are for each race, it gives a rough view over what is typical, but I do think that they are perhaps a bit too powerful at times. Since damage/healing potential, for example, is directly tied to your max value, having some races with a 9/10% bonus is significant and pushes the race/class selection along certain lines. It doesn't seem to be that big a deal overall in PvP, where you usually have to be geared to at least have some balance between damage and survivability anyway, but in PvE and group content there is a singificant benefit to achieve those extra numbers race/class/build optimizing can give you.

If we simply reduced the benefit for all racial passives so they had less impact(say, maybe a 5% max value bonus instead of 10%, so 1/10 becomes 1/20), I think it would even out a lot. Each type of bonus would have to be evaluated on their own, of course. Just used the max value benefit as an easy example.

Junkogen · November 2015

Snowgoons wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Okay a lot of people seem to think race don't matter it's a 400-300 DPS difference that's a big difference.

Also to all the some races are just better at some things lore wise not all elves have magic, the best Arch Mage ever is an Nord, the deadliest Assassins are Argonians Shadow Scales.

Lore wise Imperials make better Battle mages then tanks and better diplomats then fighters.

Many of the views here are just wrong.

I agree. All these lore junkies never complain about how lore-breaking the Imperial passives are, but when an Argonian wants a fair shake, it's the first sign of Elder Scrolls Armageddon.

Honestly, I think the Argonians are the only race left that desperately needs an overhaul. Every other race has decent passives . Argonians passives are just SO bad. Nobody recommends them for anything. I don't understand how ZOS can think the current situation is fair and balanced.

According to this thread Argonians are 100% fine, it's funny how people say certain races should be certain stuff and they like how it currently is, when the lore itself is completely broken with some of the choices in this game, but hey as stated in this thread "I like it and because I like it it should never change"

You got people who would not change their character anyways complaining at "min maxers" (cause if you want anything related to the class you choose on your race you're a min maxer)

It's hilarious how defensive people will get acting like it's not a big deal or not important, if it's not important let the change happen and stop defending something that "doesnt matter" clearly it matters for some reason to you that Argonians never get a fair shake as stated in the above quote.

I'm not sure what's happening here, but I pretty much agree with your position. Don't know why you're attacking me. But yes, it does matter to me that Argonian racials suck so hard. I wasted so much time on that character only to have it ruined by ZOS nerfing their passives and removing soft caps. It's now a huge thorn in my side.

MrDerrikk · November 2015

Snowgoons wrote: »

If @ZOS broke down what percent of what races are each class there would be a wild amount of evidence that this game needs a change when it comes to racials.

Actually, this would tie into class imbalance as well due to how some classes work much better for different races.
I'm just running a Breton Stam-Sorc now, and he seems to be doing fine...

Snowgoons · November 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Okay a lot of people seem to think race don't matter it's a 400-300 DPS difference that's a big difference.

Also to all the some races are just better at some things lore wise not all elves have magic, the best Arch Mage ever is an Nord, the deadliest Assassins are Argonians Shadow Scales.

Lore wise Imperials make better Battle mages then tanks and better diplomats then fighters.

Many of the views here are just wrong.

I agree. All these lore junkies never complain about how lore-breaking the Imperial passives are, but when an Argonian wants a fair shake, it's the first sign of Elder Scrolls Armageddon.

Honestly, I think the Argonians are the only race left that desperately needs an overhaul. Every other race has decent passives . Argonians passives are just SO bad. Nobody recommends them for anything. I don't understand how ZOS can think the current situation is fair and balanced.

According to this thread Argonians are 100% fine, it's funny how people say certain races should be certain stuff and they like how it currently is, when the lore itself is completely broken with some of the choices in this game, but hey as stated in this thread "I like it and because I like it it should never change"

You got people who would not change their character anyways complaining at "min maxers" (cause if you want anything related to the class you choose on your race you're a min maxer)

It's hilarious how defensive people will get acting like it's not a big deal or not important, if it's not important let the change happen and stop defending something that "doesnt matter" clearly it matters for some reason to you that Argonians never get a fair shake as stated in the above quote.

I'm not sure what's happening here, but I pretty much agree with your position. Don't know why you're attacking me. But yes, it does matter to me that Argonian racials suck so hard. I wasted so much time on that character only to have it ruined by ZOS nerfing their passives and removing soft caps. It's now a huge thorn in my side.

Hey um im not attacking you at all with what i said here was just using your quote as an example for argonians getting the shaft, sry was worded odd i spose

By "you" i meant others lol will fix that

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · November 2015

Racials do matter but TES has weak Nords and Orcs. Their are elves that can't make a simply fire ball. Nords and Red Guard that can make you believe they are pure breed Altmer.

I strongly dislike the idea of "picking" other races passives Argonians should never have Nord Frost resistance or Khajiit crit
Each race should have three sets of racial passives The Mage, The Warrior and The Theft. You can pick one path and from their your passives change.
It should cost a skill point and have it's own bonus along with unlocking that path.

Nord Mages may seem dumb but Nords have been some of the most powerful Mages. Not just the best out of non Elf Mages but all Mages.

Tdroid · November 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Racials do matter but TES has weak Nords and Orcs. Their are elves that can't make a simply fire ball. Nords and Red Guard that can make you believe they are pure breed Altmer.

I strongly dislike the idea of "picking" other races passives Argonians should never have Nord Frost resistance or Khajiit crit
Each race should have three sets of racial passives The Mage, The Warrior and The Theft. You can pick one path and from their your passives change.
It should cost a skill point and have it's own bonus along with unlocking that path.

Nord Mages may seem dumb but Nords have been some of the most powerful Mages. Not just the best out of non Elf Mages but all Mages.

I saw a similar idea going around some time ago(pre-Orsinium), of having each race have 3 mutually exlcusive sets of racial passives geared for magicka, stamina or tanking. Seems like a good idea to me overall.

MrGrimey · November 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

I have never selected a race to play based on its passives in an mmorpg, not once in the 17 years I've been playing mmo's.

So why is this topic relevant to you?

Snowgoons · November 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Racials do matter but TES has weak Nords and Orcs. Their are elves that can't make a simply fire ball. Nords and Red Guard that can make you believe they are pure breed Altmer.

I strongly dislike the idea of "picking" other races passives Argonians should never have Nord Frost resistance or Khajiit crit
Each race should have three sets of racial passives The Mage, The Warrior and The Theft. You can pick one path and from their your passives change.
It should cost a skill point and have it's own bonus along with unlocking that path.

Nord Mages may seem dumb but Nords have been some of the most powerful Mages. Not just the best out of non Elf Mages but all Mages.

Agreed 100%

Thats basically what I was suggesting with the tarot card idea, and why I kept mentioning an argonian with 4% magicka, you should be able to select like you said from 3 different "setups" instead of being forced into crappy racials if u don't go a certain class.

Artis · November 2015

MrDerrikk wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

@ZOS consider a better racial system, maybe a back story system for lore, if a argonian was adopted and raised by high elves he would have more Magicka affinity as an example.

I agree that race shouldn't matter much and that people should simply pick it for looks. I disagree with what I quoted though. No matter who adopted and raised an argonian, his DNA won't change because of that. If a family of wolves adopts a rabbit it's not like it's gonna start eating meat.

But seriously though, in other TESO games racial passives only affected the early game. By the end you could've reached maximum of something by playing a race that doesn't have a bonus for it - it would just take more time. Passives were kinda like the first-tier racials in ESO.
I really don't like the fact that in ESO race is important in end game, kinda feel bad for not taking the best race back when I created a toon because I know I am by default worse than those who picked it. And it's not that easy to reroll in MMO and in ESO in particular: achievements, mounts, skill lines..

I disagree that racials weren't important in other ES games. Being a Breton meant you didn't have to worry about magicka attackers due to the awesome resist for one.
If anything they mattered a lot more due to the huge values of the passives. The powers were pretty OP too.

Nah, not important at all. First off, you could compensate it with skills or potions. There was a plenty of ways to increase your magicka resistances. Second off and most importantly - you did not compete with other players. What works in a single player doesn't work as well in a MMO.
What we have in ESO is that some races in the endgame fit some builds much better than others. Wasn't the case in latest TES games. And what powers are you talking about? The ones that had a cooldown of 1 day? Well sure, I don't mind if ESO had something like that, so that once a day each race can do something awesome. At least it wouldn't affect the big picture.

And yes, argonians are not that bad. One of the best races for tanks too. Healing received - not worse than all those regen/decrease cost passives. Max health + resistance = not worse than other similar passives. But the first one is the best of all. Sure, swimming speed is not that useful even though it adds a specific flavor... The potion passive is not worse than all your regens too, makes pots 1.5 times more effective for your main stat + a little boost for other 2. Say in vMA would help you save some money because you probably won't need tripots because the passive might give you just enough stamina.

MrDerrikk · November 2015

@Artemis
I found the racial passives very important e.g. in Skyrim, with a Breton using the Lord Stone and having the Mara's Blessing quest reward you could have a passive magic resist of 65% without any potions or enchantments, which was extreme (and in Oblivion Bretons had 50% racial magic resist without any other buffs). Back in Morrowind if you were a Dunmer or Nord you had a passive 75% resist of that element, meaning you could waltz by ghosts as a Nord and just casually hit them down. (had to watch your stamina though).

Yes they are a remnant of the single player games here, but that's why the passives are a whole lot more toned down. Personally I love the differences in them, and to make them more balanced ZOS could bring back Softcaps and also give the racial bonuses a better overhaul to match the single-player benefits (Altmer get more magic and regen than they have now, but weakness to elements, Argonians get Stealthy, Khajiit get a buff to unarmed (if that gets added)).

Vslatimoreb14_ESO · November 2015

Lol this is top five most entertaining threads on this forum. I'm not sure what's worse..the delusional people claiming passives aren't a big deal. Or the people claiming some guy they knew cleared a dungeon. I love you guys really do.

Anyway we got bigger problems than crappy race system. I rather we address those first. However do remember this is not a traditional MMO. This is more like a single player with a tacky multiplayer. So in all honesty, racial balance isnt a big deal. As far as the "popular" choices. Races look terrible. Fantasy have always had an elf fetish. And let's be honest the gear scheme in this game is an eye sore. So it was already known what would be popular. The racials were an added bonus. As far as lore, lol common eso player knows some of the story, none of the background. Just ask around in game.

You should bring this to the unofficial fan forums. We are much less delusional.

Artis · November 2015

@MrDerrikk

bretons had 25% racial resistance in skyrim. Any class could get 30% by using a spell from alteration. In turn, bretons had to compensate other things that other races had.

The point is, racial passives were nice and somewhat matter in early stages of the game. But later on - not at all or not that much. A race could be picked for looks only. You could pick the race and NEVER EVER regret or have second thought that you are missing out, that you made a mistake choosing the race etc etc. But in MMO there are other players. And I think it is clear where people who ask to do something about passives are coming from. They understand that the race the picked is not optimal and by default they are worse than some other players who picked the right race. If a player is not 100% casual, there's also a factor of peer pressure. When all your guildies make sure their race is good for what they are doing, leveling alts etc to make sure they are maximally effective in a raid, then you feel kinda bad for playing the wrong race... if not forced to reroll. No one wants to play with a thought that if they had another race, their group could complete a trial faster/easier and get a better score, but it's them (those abstract players) who drag everybody else down.

I really don't see anything wrong in people asking to decrease the effect of racials or change them completely. Because right now racials simply make some races better for some builds and other races better for others, while some races are not the best for any build and therefore are not popular and playing them is basically gimping yourself.

I for one think that they should either move racial passives into some other category. Kinda like training or education line, where you can pick 3 passives out of whatever the total number is. That way the customization options are better.

Or another idea (which I think is more interesting) is to replace them with something entirely different which will give each race some special flavor, not just passively change the stats and make a few races good for certain builds and others - unplayable. For example, they could add some interesting active skill or some effect that would proc every now and then.. Preferably wouldn't affect combat (like a proc of some interesting visual effect or a chance to find something interesting) or it could affect combat and pretty significantly, but proc very rarely. Like every now and then Orcs would enrage and their damage taken would decrease and output damage - increase, bretons would get your damage shield or whatever.. all according to TES series. But the main point here - it should happen very rarely so that you can't min-max builds taking these effects in account. They would simply happen sometimes, probably even turning the tides in combat, but it would be pure luck and RNG. It wouldn't be OP that way, because it would proc, say, once or twice a day. Or once or twice per the average session (they probably have these stats).

PlagueMonk · November 2015

As a dissenting Argonian, I agree that racials, while not the end all be all, do make many builds much easier to achieve (while the lizards keep getting the shaft........not sure why the Devs hate lizards so damn much)

that being said.....I came up with a somewhat simple system some months ago that would work great......

Every race would get 5 racial abilities with 3 tiers and only 8 pts to spend on racials. So you could choose to be a master at 2 of the 5 or good at the majority.

The 5 would not be specifically geared to a stat(s) but have enough variety that you can tailor to a class/build MUCH better.

Snowgoons · November 2015

PlagueMonk wrote: »

As a dissenting Argonian, I agree that racials, while not the end all be all, do make many builds much easier to achieve (while the lizards keep getting the shaft........not sure why the Devs hate lizards so damn much)

that being said.....I came up with a somewhat simple system some months ago that would work great......

Every race would get 5 racial abilities with 3 tiers and only 8 pts to spend on racials. So you could choose to be a master at 2 of the 5 or good at the majority.

The 5 would not be specifically geared to a stat(s) but have enough variety that you can tailor to a class/build MUCH better.

100% this

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · November 2015

@Artemis
Racial passives matter a lot having 10-12% more of your core resource plus bonus regeneration matters a lot. You can't say that more magic or stamina doesn't change your endgame.

As for Argonians 6% Max health is nice it's still weak though as some people have 12% more magic or Health 10% more health, stamina or magic depending on the race. That 6% was a buff from 3% a complete joke.

Poison and Disease resistance is pointless only WW and enchantments do disease damage I can still get two shotted with Lethal Arrow.

Swimming Speed helps you no where besides ONE mission in PvE needs you to swim and that's a Nord triathlon. Swimming in PvP is a death sentence by fish or players cause you can't defend yourself.

8% all stats from potions is nice if you chug them back to back if not it's a waste. Racial with the longest cool down.

Quick to mend is the only good one and even that needs to be healing and heals taken.

As to good Tanks Imperials, Redguard, Nords, Orcs, Bosmer and Dummer in that order are the best Tanks by far.

Their is not one build that you can come up with for an Argonian that another race can't do better.

Ilsabet · November 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

A breton archer nightblade.

That's me.

I actually specifically chose Breton for my archer because of the magicka passives. I wanted to focus on the Siphoning line for survivability, and since many of those skills use magicka, I knew I'd want some extra magicka even though my weapon damage would be stamina-based. So boom, I pick a race with natural magicka affinity (and some bonus magic resistance, which anybody can use), and then I can load my attribute points into stamina to boost my weapon damage. It may not be the most effective min-max approach, but it makes sense to me.

Plus Bosmer archers are cliche and my little Breton girl is cute.

Junkogen wrote: »

Honestly, I think the Argonians are the only race left that desperately needs an overhaul. Every other race has decent passives . Argonians passives are just SO bad. Nobody recommends them for anything. I don't understand how ZOS can think the current situation is fair and balanced.

Argonians do have the best naming scheme. If you ask me it's worth making one just for the creative name possibilities.

Gidorick · November 2015

Dualrifle wrote: »

Reading all this makes me wonder, why eso always only had pure breed character? Is there some how some crossing argonian x khajit in any lore or any other "half" breed? Half nord? I know that one of the npc in the main quest is half giant but...... Hmm...

I wish there were @Dualrifle ! I go over a concept for ESO that would allow for cross-breeding here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-a-phylogenetics-concept/p1

Artis · November 2015

@kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yes they do, but they should not. That's my point. I guess my English is not that great, well, my racial passive doesn't include a bonus to English

P.s. Try to read through that wall of text and you will understand what I meant, hopefully.