Racials work in single player elder scrolls experiences, not an elder scrolls MMO

Snowgoons

There's a reason 90% of sorcs are altmer/breton, everyone on this forum loves to talk about how great the choice and flexibility of this game is, yet we see 2 races filling 90% of a class for "lore" reasoning when in reality everyone is just rolling the race cause it's the "best."

How many argonian anything do you see?

This is fine to the people who want to be the best and don't care but I for one would like to see some variety.

@ZOS consider a better racial system, maybe a back story system for lore, if a argonian was adopted and raised by high elves he would have more Magicka affinity as an example.

The game shouldn't be just everyone choosing Altmer, Breton, and Dark Elf for Magicka everything OR accepting being worse at the character just to not give in and become another ESO lemming.

Clearly lore would state there's Magicka using orcs etc so why can't they gear their character towards more Magicka? Are you telling me every orc is a melee tank? Sigh.

Volkodav

Why would you blame ZOS for everyone choosing Altmer,Breton and Dark Elves? You cant make people play the races you want.They like the ones they like.If you like Argonians,by all means,play one.You can build a Magjika Argonian.Just place your Attributes to reflect that.

Judas Helviaryn

This would be a valid point if the classes were very narrow in the roles they encompass, but you can conceivably succeed at every single role with every single class. It's more on playstyle than build for ESO. I think the real issue is, why are you angry about other peoples' (Read: Not You) choices on Their characters? Live and let live.

Korah_Eaglecry

So youre cherry picking min-maxers out and trying to generalize absolutely anyone that decides to make a Sorcerer Altmer or Dunmer DK as min-maxers as well. You cant speak for anyone and their choices.

I made my Bosmer NB because I thought it fit the race and its lore (Had a Gnome Rogue in WoW because I thought the idea of a little person going unnoticed in stealth made more sense than some smelly zombie). Not because of the passives. Theyre sneaky little *** that slip in and out of the trees like shadows. It fit. I made a Nord DK because it fit. Nords once treated Dragons like gods and are hearty people. Being a DK Tank feels right for the character. Again...Not because of the passives. But because of the lore and feel of the character I wanted to make.

Not everyone makes their choices based on squeezing every point and percentage out of their character. Some people look a the Altmer and instantly think Magicka. Because lore wise thats highly accurate. Their passives definitely reflect this but I doubt that the vast majority are min-maxing and specifically choosing their race and class based on the passives alone.

mtwiggz

Min/maxers will always choose the best classes for the highest numbers in their respective build.

I know plenty of people that play races just because they like them better, like the lore or like the appearance of the race. It's a choice everyone makes for their own individual reasons. Orcs can be magicka based, as Bretons can be stamina based. Your damage, healing or tanking abilities will reflect your race choice, but very minimally.

Example;

I have a Bosmer Magicka NB. Preferably he would be an Altmer for the extra magicka and magicka regen. Realistically I'm only losing out on a few hundred DPS by not being an Altmer. I would post actual statistics but it's late and I'm not going to go searching for them at this moment.

End all be all is that racial choices do effect your characters abilities. Yet choosing a race that doesn't synergize with your build isn't the end of the world. The differences at this moment are not so crucial that it makes certain races not be able to perform certain tasks.

OtarTheMad

If people limits their options when creating a character like that then that is not ZOS' fault but I have seen some great players make magicka builds work on stamina-friendly races and vice versa.

Heck my Orc DK was magicka based for a long time and it was a good build. My Templar is a healer but is Imperial... works just fine. Even my new lowbie is a Breton sorc but he will be a stamina sorc. One of the better players in my guild also does pretty much only Khajiit characters and rocks whatever build she does (magicka, stamina, tank, heal whatever)

No one should limit their options like that because you can really make any build work with any race. If you want to make an argonian healer/tank... why not... go for it... make him stamina instead? Sure... knock yourself out. You can't blame ZOS for people following some sort of made up rule/guideline for builds.

Catblade

I mean i can get more max magika and magika regen and help out my build or i can get cost reduction and max magika I don't really see a reason to not take that over stamina regen or sneakyness that i would never use.

TheShadowScout

Snowgoons wrote: »

@ZOS consider a better racial system, maybe a back story system for lore, if a argonian was adopted and raised by high elves he would have more Magicka affinity as an example.

[sarcasm]Suuuure, because a dog raised by cats will magically grow retractable claws so it can climb trees.[/sarcasm]

The thing is, the lore clearly states some races are a bit better at magic, and other races are a bit better at being all tough and strength-of-arm-ish, while others still are... uhm... good at swimming? For some its magic in their blood, for others its centuries of selective breeding for the toughest and strongest, and others still its webbed toes and rudimentary gills or something.

Now... one can argue about the -extent- of that advantage, and I personally would like to see it become maybe a little less then it is now...

But only min-maxxers really care about that. They are the ones who go whining all about how some change in passives "ruined" their character, and stuff like that. Admitted, they are a large and vocal group in the game...
Those who like backstories to their characters on the other hand will make their character according to their imagined backstory, and then have a dunmer nightblade or an argonian dragonknight, a nord sorceror or whatever... and still be happy playing most of the game. So what if we don't get that last percentage point of super-effectiveness? So what if we often may not quite measure up to the min-maxxers in PvP? We still have way more fun with our varietee...

Also, there are often players complaining the game is too easy. So, why don't they try playing it with a less then min-maxxed character? A breton archer nightblade. A altmer dragonknight tank. A nord healer. A orc sorceror. Whatever. It can be made to work well enough, and is way more fun when you have a bit of a challenge to play with... so maaaaybe it won't get one into the PvP top, or a trial leaderboard... though if someone gets good enough to make it despite their mismatch, think of the bragging rights!

SHADOW2KK

Great, another thread telling people how to play.

Let people play how they want, it is a game and not real life.

ItsGlaive

Racials are incredibly common in MMOs though. In fact, I don't think I've played a single MMO that doesn't have racial stats which affect final character build.

khele23eb17_ESO

I really dont think its only min-maxers who do this. Im pretty sure its much more common among players. Anyone who wants to invest some time into a character will consider it. After all, you dont want to put months of work into a toon that will turn out to be gimped due to race choice. I mean were not talking about minor perks here. '+8% crit' or 'regens resource on attacks' thats the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire in that other game.

ADarklore

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

I mean were not talking about minor perks here. '+8% crit' or 'regens resource on attacks' thats the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire in that other game.

Sounds to me like something only min/maxers would look at because +8% Crit or regens aren't going to "kill" a build and if a person has to rely solely on the racials for an advantage, then they clearly need to worry more about improving their skills than being carried by racial passives.

And yes, that IS the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire, but again, those people tend to be min/maxers who always have to have the best or the biggest advantage. Also, most people raid for months because... well... they're playing the game and may not have anything to do with specific rewards.

Qyrk

Let us all look on the bigger picture here.

Ask yourself this. Have you ever encountered a group or raid specifically asking, 'magicka altmer sorcs only need to apply, or 'LF1M tank, be an imperial race' ?

No? Well then it just shows that race DOES NOT exclude you from doing end game content or any content for that matter. It is a small percentage of a character's build. I am all for equalizing racials across the board (making it unique but at same time practical), but to say that you picked a race that is not intended for your build DOES NOT make your character worse.

khele23eb17_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

I mean were not talking about minor perks here. '+8% crit' or 'regens resource on attacks' thats the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire in that other game.

Sounds to me like something only min/maxers would look at because +8% Crit or regens aren't going to "kill" a build and if a person has to rely solely on the racials for an advantage, then they clearly need to worry more about improving their skills than being carried by racial passives.

And yes, that IS the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire, but again, those people tend to be min/maxers who always have to have the best or the biggest advantage. Also, most people raid for months because... well... they're playing the game and may not have anything to do with specific rewards.

Ah, yes. The 'if you care about stats youre not skilled' argument. Its irrelevant here, however. People care about stats regardless of skill level. Tell me, according to your definition of a min-maxer, which seems to be 'someone who cares about gaining 8% crit' what % of players would qualify as one?

Snowgoons

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

I mean were not talking about minor perks here. '+8% crit' or 'regens resource on attacks' thats the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire in that other game.

Sounds to me like something only min/maxers would look at because +8% Crit or regens aren't going to "kill" a build and if a person has to rely solely on the racials for an advantage, then they clearly need to worry more about improving their skills than being carried by racial passives.

And yes, that IS the kind of bonus people raid for months to acquire, but again, those people tend to be min/maxers who always have to have the best or the biggest advantage. Also, most people raid for months because... well... they're playing the game and may not have anything to do with specific rewards.

Ah, yes. The 'if you care about stats youre not skilled' argument. Its irrelevant here, however. People care about stats regardless of skill level. Tell me, according to your definition of a min-maxer, which seems to be 'someone who cares about gaining 8% crit' what % of players would qualify as one?

Exactly. People here claiming only min maxers care about race and stuff like "it doesn't matter" etc are completely dillusional, and once again if orcs have no Magicka affinity why can you find multiple old wise shaman like ones in game?

There's a reason I put elder scrolls game in the title, other mmos have been making this mistake for years, this shouldn't have been one of them.

The elder scrolls lore proves this to be incorrect. It's in the lore that most of you don't even bother to read.

Draxys

Snowgoons wrote: »

why can't they gear their character towards more Magicka?

they can...

Snowgoons

Draxys wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

why can't they gear their character towards more Magicka?

they can...

Obviously I'm talking about racial skills...........................dotdotdot

JD2013

Different races of Tamriel are born with different attributes, for example Bretons are more predisposed towards magic. Bosmers are hunters, and as such have bow skills, Nords are warriors. These are attributes that, lore wise, they are born and have an affinity with.

That is not to say there won't be Bosmer mages, Nord hunters etc, but these are not the gifts that they are born with. They can learn and learn, but an Orc, for example, is never going to have the racial affinity with magic that say an Altmer or Breton would.

Snowgoons

JD2013 wrote: »

Different races of Tamriel are born with different attributes, for example Bretons are more predisposed towards magic. Bosmers are hunters, and as such have bow skills, Nords are warriors. These are attributes that, lore wise, they are born and have an affinity with.

That is not to say there won't be Bosmer mages, Nord hunters etc, but these are not the gifts that they are born with. They can learn and learn, but an Orc, for example, is never going to have the racial affinity with magic that say an Altmer or Breton would.

So are you saying according to the lore orcs using any type of magic are weaker than say high elves and Breton?

My argument lies with the lore, and that's simply not true in the lore.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Urag_gro-Shub

This is also not an orc only issue there's plenty of races that do far more than the racials provide here.

The real question is if it's in the lore why are you guys so set in stone with the poor choice of racials presented in this game?

No one saying give say an orc 10% Magicka, but why they can't exchange some of the more tank based racials for say 4% Magicka is beyond me.

Clearly other races are mages in TES lore stop denying it.

Draxys

Snowgoons wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Snowgoons wrote: »

why can't they gear their character towards more Magicka?

they can...

Obviously I'm talking about racial skills...........................dotdotdot

Actually it wasn't obvious, but regardless, I heard (don't quote me, my only source is word of mouth from a guild friend) that they are considering implementing a system that would allow any race to focus on certain play styles through their racial passives.

JD2013

Snowgoons wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Different races of Tamriel are born with different attributes, for example Bretons are more predisposed towards magic. Bosmers are hunters, and as such have bow skills, Nords are warriors. These are attributes that, lore wise, they are born and have an affinity with.

That is not to say there won't be Bosmer mages, Nord hunters etc, but these are not the gifts that they are born with. They can learn and learn, but an Orc, for example, is never going to have the racial affinity with magic that say an Altmer or Breton would.

So are you saying according to the lore orcs using any type of magic are weaker than say high elves and Breton?

My argument lies with the lore, and that's simply not true in the lore.

Not necessarily weaker, but a Breton or an Altmer has more of an affinity with magic, due to their races, and Bretons are also descended from the Mer races. Which gives them some Mer blood, which adds to their natural talents.

Look at Shalidor as an example. He was a Nord that was singularly talented in magic, however much some of the stories about him may have been exaggerated. Powerful he may have been, and learning has a great impact upon talents, but power does not always necessarily go hand in hand with natural affinities.

TheShadowScout

Snowgoons wrote: »

...and once again if orcs have no Magicka affinity why can you find multiple old wise shaman like ones in game?

So you are saying, only people with a racial bonus will -ever- become wise old shamans?
And that noone without a matching racial bonus can pick a class/build?
Oh, my...
What -have- I been doing all this time? Clearly my dunmer character shouldn't be nightblade or sorceror, they ought to have been dragonknights due to the racial bonus. Clearly I have been playing the game completely wrong...

No, wait... fu... uhm... forget that.

Some races have an -advantage- in some fields, as the TES lore states.
Doesn't mean they -have- to specialize in that field if they don't want to. Not like "lacks the special advantage" translates into "can't do it". Or do you think only those with perfect pitch can learn how to play a musical instrument???
So what if the bretons may be better at magic then at swordplay due to the extra special advantage they get from their mer blood? Doesn't mean there won't be breton knights, breton rouges, breton archers, etc. Both in NPC terms, and as player characters. Doesn't mean those passives dictate how we have to build/play our characters.

Yeah, it is sometimes a little annoying if you see two-thirds of bretons being templars, or two-thirds of altmer being sorcerors, or nearly all the bosmer and khajiit nightblades... but that's just people being people and chasing the "best build". One can hope that some of them will grow out of it and start making argonian dragonknights, orc templars and nord sorcerors...

Catblade

I' m sorry but 8% Crit chance and 10% stamina regen really do go a long way. It may not be the end all be all of course you can be anything anyway and make it work. It just makes it easier if say I'm a redguard stamina build as opposed to a high elf. Can I make the high elf work? Sure I will have extra magika and magika regens to use on magika dumps so it's not all bad, but my character being stamina will benefit far more from 10% max stam and stam regens.

OtarTheMad

I get what you're saying but Altmers, Bretons should always understand/be better at magicka than other races. Can a non-altmer or Breton be powerful? Absolutely, Dragon Priests are still probably some of the most powerful mages to ever walk Nirn and they were Atmorans. Falmer in their pre-altered state also understood magicka very well (maybe almost better than altmer) and you have heard of some Bosmer in the Psijic Order.

Some races will just be better at magicka than others but that doesn't mean that you can't have a powerful Orc mage, or a dangerous Altmer warrior or anything like that. In game though you can get just about any race to have good spell power, max magicka and good regeneration with just the right gear.

This is a game at the end of the day and if you (not you OP but just people in general) aren't making Bretons stamina nightblades, Nord healing Templars, Orc magicka DKs or Argonian sorcs (as an example) and want to then that's not ZOS' fault.

Quick good examples: Sypher's magicka NB is an Imperial, King Richard (I think he's still magicka) is Redguard magicka sorc, I know of an Orc DK who was a pretty good healer (can't remember the name but my guildie would talk about him sometimes) Just play the game as whatever race you want and have fun. People might be thinking about this a little too much and acting like the crap we do in ESO goes on some resume or something, just play.

Junkogen

It's because ZOS designed these passives under much different conditions. They then changed the game and not the passives. Argonians just happened to get shafted the hardest. It's at outdated system that needs an overhaul to reflect the new game. That's why people want race change options. It's also why ZOS will probably not change much. They're going to make a mint off that Crown Store race change potion. Stone-cold business.

Junkogen

How is racial passive balance any different from class balance? People act like passives don't matter, but then class balance shouldn't matter either. Why do people dismiss passive balance? It's just as important as any other area of the game.

Draxys

Junkogen wrote: »

How is racial passive balance any different from class balance? People act like passives don't matter, but then class balance shouldn't matter either. Why do people dismiss passive balance? It's just as important as any other area of the game.

This isn't balance, the people wanting passives to change chose to be a certain race that wasn't particularly ideal for what they're doing. Yes they do dumb things like ruin argonian nightblades, but that's another matter entirely.

Snowgoons

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I get what you're saying but Altmers, Bretons should always understand/be better at magicka than other races. Can a non-altmer or Breton be powerful? Absolutely, Dragon Priests are still probably some of the most powerful mages to ever walk Nirn and they were Atmorans. Falmer in their pre-altered state also understood magicka very well (maybe almost better than altmer) and you have heard of some Bosmer in the Psijic Order.

Some races will just be better at magicka than others but that doesn't mean that you can't have a powerful Orc mage, or a dangerous Altmer warrior or anything like that. In game though you can get just about any race to have good spell power, max magicka and good regeneration with just the right gear.

This is a game at the end of the day and if you (not you OP but just people in general) aren't making Bretons stamina nightblades, Nord healing Templars, Orc magicka DKs or Argonian sorcs (as an example) and want to then that's not ZOS' fault.

Quick good examples: Sypher's magicka NB is an Imperial, King Richard (I think he's still magicka) is Redguard magicka sorc, I know of an Orc DK who was a pretty good healer (can't remember the name but my guildie would talk about him sometimes) Just play the game as whatever race you want and have fun. People might be thinking about this a little too much and acting like the crap we do in ESO goes on some resume or something, just play.

King Richard said MULTIPLE times the exact words "If you want to do magicka you have to go high elf, it can work but I'd have 3000 more magicka as a high elf"

and then he respecced to stamina. He said the ONLY reason he was magicka was because he didn't have the sets yet for his stamina build.

He might be a min-maxer but clearly there's advantages to more magicka based races, and clearly we all agree that other races were mages and shamans etc, so why again in this game are orcs, redguards, khajiit, HIGH ELVES when they go stamina build, etc etc etc being forced into having racials not useful to their class in ANY way?

Once again: No one is saying let a argonian have the same magicka as a breton or high elf, I'm saying they SHOULD have the option of at least getting a few percent seeing as in the lore every single race has a magicka using character.

Draxys wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

How is racial passive balance any different from class balance? People act like passives don't matter, but then class balance shouldn't matter either. Why do people dismiss passive balance? It's just as important as any other area of the game.

This isn't balance, the people wanting passives to change chose to be a certain race that wasn't particularly ideal for what they're doing. Yes they do dumb things like ruin argonian nightblades, but that's another matter entirely.

and that's really how you think the game should be? you want everyone "choosing the race that was ideal" for everything so that you never see an argonian anything? That's what you'd prefer the elder scrolls online to be? Sometimes I wonder if players like you can see outside of your own personal worlds.

Junkogen wrote: »

It's because ZOS designed these passives under much different conditions. They then changed the game and not the passives. Argonians just happened to get shafted the hardest. It's at outdated system that needs an overhaul to reflect the new game. That's why people want race change options. It's also why ZOS will probably not change much. They're going to make a mint off that Crown Store race change potion. Stone-cold business.

Exactly. It's BS. I personally would like to see tarot cards for character creation, choose one for magicka, health, stamina, and you get racials more related towards whatever you chose with a lore backstory justifying it. If I choose argonian magicka backstory a narrator should say for example: "My parents were killed at a young age I was raised in a mages guild orphanage blah blah blah" and give you like 4% Magicka at the price of say less after drinking a potion.

If the tarot card idea is too complex, let people trade one of their racials for a list of ZOS approved racials, trade argonian swimming speed for 4% magicka SOMETHING, ANYTHING.

Corellon Thromorin

Learn 2 Play Lore

Snowgoons wrote: »

He might be a min-maxer but clearly there's advantages to more magicka based races, and clearly we all agree that other races were mages and shamans etc, so why again in this game are orcs, redguards, khajiit, HIGH ELVES when they go stamina build, etc etc etc being forced into having racials not useful to their class in ANY way?

You're NOT forced into having racials, they are optional, you must spend skill points in them. Nuff said.

Corellon Thromorin

double

Snowgoons

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Learn 2 Play Lore

Snowgoons wrote: »

He might be a min-maxer but clearly there's advantages to more magicka based races, and clearly we all agree that other races were mages and shamans etc, so why again in this game are orcs, redguards, khajiit, HIGH ELVES when they go stamina build, etc etc etc being forced into having racials not useful to their class in ANY way?

You're NOT forced into having racials, they are optional, you must spend skill points in them. Nuff said.

I didn't say you were forced to put points into these racials.

Learn 2 Troll Reading Comprehension.