I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

purplederpy wrote: »

Salmonoid wrote: »

What the hell did you expect it to be.. honestly..

There needs to be a 'max level' and there needs to be end game gear, there also needs to be new content with new 'max' level gear. This is how every MMO works, and any other alternative is stupid and unrewarding.

If you do not like it, then stop playing.

I don't know where to begin with this...
What did I expect? Well, what everyone else was expecting. It seemed common sense for most of us.
50 is max level. Everything after would be stat progression from gear and CP.

Content would be geared toward a target skill/gear/stat level, and those who went beyond that level would be able to clear that content easier. Just like how in most MMOs, you kill that boss to get stronger loot to more easily kill that boss with.
Only this way, you don't have to ram your skull into the same bosses to get stronger, you can just play the game how you'd like.

I don't know where you get off trying to tell me to "stop playing" this game that I love simply because I (and a lot of people) see that this change we've all been waiting on is barely even half of what we wanted.

Please, not "everyone", not "most of us".

A lot of people like the VR system. A lot of people enjoy the progression through zones, through crafting materials, through recipes, and ingredients and potions.

A lot of people do not want to be in godmode at level 50, with everything scaled to be easy - and only get easier as you get more CP.

Saying "50 is max level" makes no more sense than "VR16 is max level" or "65 is max level", it's just an arbitrary decision.

Some people might want to reach godmode at level 50. Others might want continuous (and yes, vertical) progression throughout the game so that it continues to challenge rather than get easier.

I don't think anyone should ever be at god mode.

My dream ESO experience would be.

Difficulty Rating.
Casual - 50 (current Cadwel's Silver/Gold)
Challenging - 50+ (Current VR Dungeons)
Hard - 50++ (Current vDSA, CoA, CoH, AA, HRC)
Very Hard 50+++ (Current SO, vWGT)

First Faction/Main Story
This happens around the time you finish your first faction and the games story.

Cadwel's Silver & Gold - Casual
New story and questing zones for players balanced to be a challenge for 50 players but just more of the same for fun.

Non-VR/Silver Dungeons - Challenging
Should be doable by any PUG but players would need to understand fundamental mechanics.

VR Dungeons/Craglorn - Hard
Content designed to be much trickier and request a good understanding of game mechanics but still achievable by a PUG.

Trials/Areas - Very Hard
Content designed to really test groups and with competitive leader boards for guilds to show what they're made of.

Now the power creep from CP will be a big issue for these, as players gain more CP content will become drastically easier which would sadly throw a wrench in the works. In theory it would need to be rebalanced that content stays at the appropriate levels of challenge but gives your character more options/longer sustains etc.

With this the focus of end game would be to play what you enjoy, trying to beat world records for PvE guilds, dominate Cyrodiil for PvP guilds and going to the content areas which hide the gear you want. Augment this with gear being BoE (with the exception of boss sets, trials sets & master weapons) and you would people playing the content they want and trading gear for gear they want. We would log in and do what we want to be doing regardless of level/VR/CP/Gear.

It would be the ESO game we were promised.

@ZOS_RichLambert please make this not just a dream.

purplederpy wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

purplederpy wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

You can't have everything available to you once you hit level 50. An MMO simply should not work like that as what would be the incentive for them to have new gear? Why would they put out new content if you can simply face roll through it with no thought?

An MMO needs some kind of progression system to keep it going and to keep the players going. To keep them wanting to do new content and wanting new gear that is put out. When they take away veteran ranks, it was silly to think they were not going to put in some other kind of progression system.

Easy: hard modes and Champion Point wipes whenever a higher tier of content releases. Like I said, it's still going to require a set standard of skill/stat requirements. Extra CP just makes it easier. Not faceroll easy, but less "first attempt" difficult.

Making two modes for a trial or dungeon is different to making entire pieces of DLC easy or hard mode.

And as for wiping everyone's CP's every three months? I can't imagine how hacked off people would be if that happened.

Sorry, I lost you again. I'm not saying to make entire pieces of DLC easy or hard mode.

What I was thinking is that all end-game pve content (trials/dungeons) would release with one target difficulty demographic: Decently geared level 50s with some CP.

Completing the normal difficulty of that piece of content unlocks the next difficulty, like how WoW raids go from normal to heroic. And how normal dungeons then have vet difficulty.
Even 10 years down the line, new trials would release at the same base level (decently geared level 50s with some CP). But every time a new trial releases, they wipe the CP from the previous tier, and all the trials from over the years are the same difficulty, so that you complete the ones you want to do.

The one thing I've learned from playing MMOs over the years is that you go from "I can't wait to get more and more powerful" to realizing that there's always going to be more content and more power later, so why work toward it if it's just going to become normal later? You're still just as powerful as you were when the old max level was max level, there's just bigger numbers now that you're the "new" max level.

The solution? Put the power in the gameplay, not the stats. You're still going to have the seasonal stat-leveling through gear and CP, but later on they'll add more skill lines and abilities/builds to play with. New ways to make you actually feel like you're getting powerful, as opposed to just increasing your numbers and lowering ability costs.

I get where you're coming from. How gameplay should be more powerful than stats. I get that, I do.

The problem with MMO's is that there is always more powerful gear coming out with every new content pack, and they need people to pay and play through that to make money to develop more content.

I would also not like the idea of everyone reaching god mode like you can on the single player Elder Scrolls games. Because when I reached that level on Skyrim for example, I put the game down because nothing was a challenge anymore.

I would certainly like to see content that is a challenge without necessity of having to grind for it, but the only way to viably make challenging content is to increase numbers, and thereby needing to increase player stats numbers. It's a conundrum.

Every MMO is a bit of a gear grind to be able to do the more challenging content. But I do genuinely prefer that to reaching God mode and having nothing left to strive for, or nothing left to aim for.

@purplederpy - you are of course correct, but hope i can give you some piece of mind:

sorry if its been mentioned. But you realise with the change to how you gain CP based on how many you have, the amount of enlightenment you get from hitting veteran, if they do make it 10 CP per Vet level you can probably hit CP gear requirement in a LOT less time.

on PTS a dev wrote ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.

so your first champion point will be 32,000 xp with enlightened gaining it at 4x multiplier (i believe?) is equivalent to 8,000 actual XP

if you work out cumulatively your first 10 champion points XP cost is 411,920 (this was previously 1,000,000 down to 850,000 for V1 to V2 iirc) with enlightened on top you will get ten CP in around 102,980 XP this is 1/10th of what it was originally. if we compare this to teh XP requirements to get from level 1 to level 49
we see actually its a FAR, FAR easier system. i dont think they can improve it further or make it easier without a considerable overhaul.

EDIT: Sorry piece of mind is about to be shattered. i followed it through the XP cost from getting V1 to V16 in total is appearing to come out as More now. 19 million XP Vs the current system 13.6million XP.

PANIC!

If new gear needs to get more powerful than old gear (something which I don't agree with either, but I'll roll with it), I don't understand why it needs to be locked to a rank requirement. Why can't everyone, regardless of their CP rank, equip the best gear if they have put in the work to get it? Say, for example, a really good player manages to solo Vet DSA with 2 CPs. That player has earned the powerful VR14 gear that you get as a reward, but can't use it because he doesn't have 140 CPs. Why not? He's earned it, but an arbitrary number says he can't use it.

The restriction of powerful gear should be based on its difficulty of acquisition, not an arbitrary number.

Spearshard wrote: »

Oh, and here's the fun part, I have 2 v16's, one perfectly geared, we'll at least to my liking, and the other soon will be. I have about 226 CPs. So what will the new top gear level? 250? 300?500? Or the new seasonal cap, whatever that is. Now here is the fun part, what is fair? There are plenty of ppl with lower cp numbers but v16 and happy with their set up. Are we going to be screed with a higher cp requirement?

Not at first, the highest gear will be CP160. Anyone with less than 160 CP and has at least 1 VR16 will be given the difference so they can still wear their gear. But the answer to your question is "YES" because in the near future you will need more CP to equip the better gear.

deadlock007 wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

I have stockpiled a Soulshine set for the day everything goes to Level 50.
I will put it out of the wardrobe and be the happiest Templar ever

That's not how it is going to work though. Your soulshine set will be just as weak then as it is now. Everyone will be wearing CP160 gear while you are wearing CP100 gear. That's why everyone is complaining because the vet ranks are really not going anywhere. They are just called Champion Ranks. Something a lot of us on here knew was going to happen.......

I just wanted to say thank you for getting it.

It looks like we are going to be stuck with this model of tiny DLC + tiny level cap bump. Instead of having infinite gear choices (soulshine, warlock, etc), we are going to be stuck with whatever BOP grind the next DLC has to offer. I hope everyone is happy when that damned Agility/Willpower set, or Molag Kena set, or Sheer Venom, or Briarthorn set they are furiously grinding now is obsolete in a couple months. I'm sure when that Maelstrom legendary goes obsolete to any crafted weapon like how the IC patch did it, it won't be fun either.

If it was fun doing it that would be one thing. But doing repeatable content over and over, and failing over and over is just ugh. Having a few hours to play every night is just not enough to stay competitive in this system, which means it will time to find something else to do.

willymchilybily wrote: »

EDIT: Sorry piece of mind is about to be shattered. i followed it through the XP cost from getting V1 to V16 in total is appearing to come out as More now. 19 million XP Vs the current system 13.6million XP.

PANIC!

This also only gets higher the longer the game goes on for, sure right now it looks great and not much, but what happens when we hit the CP level 1000 items. Also what about the people who are already over the CP mark due to the old system. They now skip potentially years of needing to level because they'll be so far ahead of the curve and still gaining CP.

Also remember once you hit cap you no longer get enlightenment, so the catch up mechanic becomes entirely based on XP/CP then without additional boosts to speed it up.

kupacmac wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

Oh, and here's the fun part, I have 2 v16's, one perfectly geared, we'll at least to my liking, and the other soon will be. I have about 226 CPs. So what will the new top gear level? 250? 300?500? Or the new seasonal cap, whatever that is. Now here is the fun part, what is fair? There are plenty of ppl with lower cp numbers but v16 and happy with their set up. Are we going to be screed with a higher cp requirement?

No they won't be. They will be compensated with enough CP to keep wearing their armor.

Now contrast your scenario with mine where I have 4 veteran rank characters, none of which are v16. If the change were implemented today (I know it's months out) all 4 characters would be able to wear the top end gear. Not only that, but right now I have no plans to hit v16 with 3 of the characters because I just can't bring myself to go through Cadwell's silver/gold all over again. However, eventually they will all be max "level". I can now freely switch between characters and all of them will level simultaneously. No other MMO does that.

As long as you hit V16 with one of them yes you will be able to wear the best gear temporarily. Once the new gear comes out with a higher CP requirement that you don't meet then no you won't. Just being level 50 will not make you a "max" character. You CP rank will determine that.

Tors wrote: »

Why do people think they should have a character of the same power on turning 50 as those who are vr16/level 65?

I can understand the arguement if its because people dont want the travisty of Cadwells, even then, if the gold and silver were in zones that arnt the starter zones of the other races people wouldnt compalin so much.

If its because you dont want to level, then why play a MMORPG?

I think you misunderstand...a few things.
-A VR16 is in no way shape or form a level 65
-some People don't want to hit 50 and be a VR16, but there should not be another equip gear restriction above 50 because the skill trees and such cap at 50 so removing VR should re-align these back to 50
-Cadwell zones come across as required because there are a lot of skill quests and shards that are necessary. Because it's extra content at the very least removing VR should remove some of this because VR was the only reason Cadwell existed as there was no other zones other than Cyrodil. Would not the 1-50 shards better count as one skill or instead of every three once you remove those in silver n gold zones? Should not there be no quest restrictions to gain access to gold zone shards? Should not the account progression apply in Cadwell only as the original intent was for VR progression?

I see a lot of reaction comments but when you consider the context of why ZOS added VR and why they are going back and removing VR as far back as closed BETA, it's an all encompassing change that as presented is half done which prompts the responses many interpret as some asking to hit 50 and "skip" or be "given" things.


Removing VR shouldn't remove content but it should remove all problems that VR created.
-gear progression exists outside of VR levels because of tiered materials that have increased base stats by tier...this is good but unequal in progression but it's now established and should stay so ppl can still progress

-CP should not be tied to a gear restriction or even a content restriction as each of us will use CP points differently so to go and build an account based progression but then go back and try to align a VR system and its problems to the account based widely varying CP system will cause nothing but the same problems as well as new problems that should have never been introduced in closed beta and definatley not rolled out live.

When you understand that VR was just to be a PvP progression that stopped at vr6-8 that later created Cadwell, PvE VR exp that was later changed to require more exp and then attempted to mesh normal exp and VR exp but later slow down and reduce VR exp possible to earn and then lower VR exp required....all of this prompts the reply ....because had it never existed, we all would be in a different place.

So when a company admits something shouldn't exist and will be removed, it should mean "all of it" and not some

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Is this thread really about VR removal, or this just another tired complaint about the Champion System?

Not sure there is a difference anymore.

Champion System is just going to be a vertical progression after level cap, just like Veteran System. It will have gear, and attribute points and skill points. The carrot is customization. That's all.

I originally thought they wanted more of a horizontal system so that they could eventually raise the level cap from 50 and not have itemization and all that mixed in. It is now clear that 50 is, and forever, the level cap.

deadlock007 wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

Oh, and here's the fun part, I have 2 v16's, one perfectly geared, we'll at least to my liking, and the other soon will be. I have about 226 CPs. So what will the new top gear level? 250? 300?500? Or the new seasonal cap, whatever that is. Now here is the fun part, what is fair? There are plenty of ppl with lower cp numbers but v16 and happy with their set up. Are we going to be screed with a higher cp requirement?

No they won't be. They will be compensated with enough CP to keep wearing their armor.

Now contrast your scenario with mine where I have 4 veteran rank characters, none of which are v16. If the change were implemented today (I know it's months out) all 4 characters would be able to wear the top end gear. Not only that, but right now I have no plans to hit v16 with 3 of the characters because I just can't bring myself to go through Cadwell's silver/gold all over again. However, eventually they will all be max "level". I can now freely switch between characters and all of them will level simultaneously. No other MMO does that.

As long as you hit V16 with one of them yes you will be able to wear the best gear temporarily. Once the new gear comes out with a higher CP requirement that you don't meet then no you won't. Just being level 50 will not make you a "max" character. You CP rank will determine that.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Progression is a good thing. It's the lifeblood of MMORPG's.

Stikato wrote: »

deadlock007 wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

I have stockpiled a Soulshine set for the day everything goes to Level 50.
I will put it out of the wardrobe and be the happiest Templar ever

That's not how it is going to work though. Your soulshine set will be just as weak then as it is now. Everyone will be wearing CP160 gear while you are wearing CP100 gear. That's why everyone is complaining because the vet ranks are really not going anywhere. They are just called Champion Ranks. Something a lot of us on here knew was going to happen.......

I just wanted to say thank you for getting it.

It looks like we are going to be stuck with this model of tiny DLC + tiny level cap bump. Instead of having infinite gear choices (soulshine, warlock, etc), we are going to be stuck with whatever BOP grind the next DLC has to offer. I hope everyone is happy when that damned Agility/Willpower set, or Molag Kena set, or Sheer Venom, or Briarthorn set they are furiously grinding now is obsolete in a couple months. I'm sure when that Maelstrom legendary goes obsolete to any crafted weapon like how the IC patch did it, it won't be fun either.

If it was fun doing it that would be one thing. But doing repeatable content over and over, and failing over and over is just ugh. Having a few hours to play every night is just not enough to stay competitive in this system, which means it will time to find something else to do.

Yup, and since they themselves have determined that each VR is worth 10 CP and there are 3600 possible CP to earn, that means we will all be VR360 by the time we hit max level for good.