i agree with op i have no probs with all content in game apart from arena, i have played dk since beta and noticed a slow nerfing of dk's. i have a fire mage dk with staff (which has also been nerfed to high hell), i find the arena impossible to do past area 7, it seems only certain builds can complete it, by the way i have no probs in dsa

Vangy wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Pve:

NB: yo dawgs look at my leet dps! ( SA SA SA SA SA SA SA SA, killers blade x 5!)

Stam templar: pfft you got nothing on me brah ( jabjabjabajabajbajabajaabajab... Uhm sry I can't execute)

sorc: hahahaha u 2 newbs L2P ( random spell, random spell, FRAG, spell, FRAG, x 10 > mages wrath mages wrath Mages wrath)

Magicka dk: SILENCE NOOBS. Me is pve king. ( dot dot dot dot standard dot dot dot)

Stam dk: hey guys can I join! I can Wb too! And I have executioner! Please?

Everyone else: NO GTFO u noob. I can just get an npc to use Wb and executioner and they pull same dps as you.

EDIT:

Later that day:

stam dk and stam sorc hook up in some shady den to smoke some skooma and waste away cos they has no friends.

Was there a point to this non-sense? To put up solid DPS numbers with any builds it's a lot more than just spamming skills.

It's a rotation to maintain buffs, dots, ac's, and weaves. Take any builds into current content that was made with VR16 in mind like Vet WGT, IP, or MSA and see if just spamming the same skill over and over is enough to see you through.

Posts like this and their attempts to be cute or funny are a large part of the problem...

.......

Let me talk you through 99% of stam dk / stam sorc builds. (assuming they dont pvp and have caltrops or vigor)

For convenience im gona use DK; 2H/DW

Step 1: Rally buff must be up at all times.
Step 2: Make sure u Light attack>Unstable flame every 10.5 secs

*note: if you pvp and have caltrops u should use this as well. Dont throw this before tank takes aggro please. U will die.

Step 3: Wear a nose guard and mash ur face into WB x100 with attack weaving ( Ie tap left click then hold right click just as your guy starts using WB).

Step 4: Boss in exec range spam Executioner.

If ur build is a full QQ weapon damage build with 800 stam recovery occasionally cast obsidian shield/molten weapons to regen stam. And ofcourse use ultimate when you should.

Very VERY complicated yes? I mean come on u need to juggle rally, unstable flame and at the same time u have to mash face into wb. God who could ever do this?

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?

Stam Sorc isn't fully flushed out yet. ZOS has only just started supporting that build, so yeah it's options are very limited right now. Stamina DK on the other hand has a lot more flex because it doesn't need to slot as many class skills.

In dungeons where you don't need as much utility as a DPS, WB is not the best choice. In PVP or vMSA it's a better choice because builds need to slot more utility, and WB is the better option when space is more limited.

In group play, if your using WB as a Stam DK, frankly your doing it wrong...

The fact that you think a DPS' rotation is just about spamming one skill is a clear insight into your lack of understanding how to optimally DPS.

Dks don't "need" to slot many class skills cos they don't have any that work in a stam build short of obsidian/molten and their ultimates. Since u clearly seem to know more please do enlighten me with your stam dk rotation. There really isn't much wiggle room for a stam dk other than going DW with spin2win for Aoe and rapid strikes for single t + maintaining ur caltrops and dots with valkyns(which got nerfed to oblivion). Please do tell me your complicated and amazing dps rotation so I may be enlightened.

Stam Sorc needs to slot class skills because of the Expert Mage passive boosting weapon. However ZOS has just started to support that build, and it's a clear example of a work in process.

In the first post you mention Unstable Flame, and then you say the only DK skills that work for stamina are Obsidian/Molten and Ults. Make up you mind, and while your in there try to come out with what Burning Breath can be used for since it's a conal AOE that debuffs more than one enemy at a time.

Clearly you didn't figure out what the best PVE rotation for DK was before IC, because if you had you'd know that the best rotation at present, which still uses many of the same skills.

Bluntly I don't feel like outlining the better Stam DK rotation to you because it's not going to change anything. You want DK buffed so you can be competitive and "feel" like a DK with as little thought as possible. This is about how you don't feel like a DK because you bar isn't filled with class skills applicable to a Stamina build. It has little to do with the current state of the class and it's effectiveness.

DK is out of date and needs to be updated. This doesn't mean it needs to be buffed per say, but rather tweaks and small changes are required to bring it inline with the game's current state.

"Dk is out of date and needs to be updated". No one is asking for unstable flame to hit for 100000000 damage. The class needs to be changed somehow to stay relevant. Thank you for acknowledging this. That's all I was going for. Also if u look at dk guides like deltias etc, their rotation has almost been the same since 1.6 and every decent dk and their mothers knows it. Stack fire dots ( I don't like burning breath due to the same debuff that most tanks apply) and continue to spam either Wb or rapid strikes while rally is up. Nothing special. Nothing difficult. You seem to speak as if u have some godlike build that is so clearly better than mine but have yet to back it up with any solid facts. So obviously you are clueless here not me. Until you post a relevant build that is different from what I've listed above I'm going to go ahead and assume ur just talking a big game.

Delita's builds are terrible for high end. They are good starting points, but need a lot of shaping up to be maximized.

Burning Breath is good for AOE against trash mobs because it applies Major Fracture to multiple targets at once. The tank isn't going to taunt all of the trash. It's also nice for fights with adds that the tanks will not taunt.

The best DK stamina builds pre-IC come out of EU and were DW & Bow. They used a mix of medium and light attack weaves with Molten Armaments and Hidden Blade. For DOTs they had Razor Caltrops, Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Scorched Earth, and Unstable Flame. Used Flawless Dawnbreaker and Standard of Might as ultimates, with pots providing Major Brutality.

Fast forward to today. DW is still the best PVE choice on your main bar, summed up by being more overall stats. Bow is less optimal, and with the change to Molten Weapons having Executioner is preferred. So moving toward DW/2h, when more focused ranged isn't needed, is the better way to go.

Hidden Blade is still the better repeatable in group situations when you can focus solely on DPS. It's instant, so it weaves more smoothly. This translates to faster ultimate gains and ults are key to DPS output in group PVE.

Molten Armaments is swapped for Igneous Weapons as it's still the best skill to take advantage of Earthern Heart passives. Because you can no longer medium weave with it, it's a smaller part of the rotation, but still used. The major trick is juggling when to heavy attack to extend IW and regain stamina and when to let it fall off to be reactivated for the passives.

Rapid Strikes might take Hidden Blades place with Maelstrom Daggers, but it depends on if they stay as is. However Wrecking Blow is just not that good for group PVE content.

Barlthump wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Pve:

NB: yo dawgs look at my leet dps! ( SA SA SA SA SA SA SA SA, killers blade x 5!)

Stam templar: pfft you got nothing on me brah ( jabjabjabajabajbajabajaabajab... Uhm sry I can't execute)

sorc: hahahaha u 2 newbs L2P ( random spell, random spell, FRAG, spell, FRAG, x 10 > mages wrath mages wrath Mages wrath)

Magicka dk: SILENCE NOOBS. Me is pve king. ( dot dot dot dot standard dot dot dot)

Stam dk: hey guys can I join! I can Wb too! And I have executioner! Please?

Everyone else: NO GTFO u noob. I can just get an npc to use Wb and executioner and they pull same dps as you.

EDIT:

Later that day:

stam dk and stam sorc hook up in some shady den to smoke some skooma and waste away cos they has no friends.

Was there a point to this non-sense? To put up solid DPS numbers with any builds it's a lot more than just spamming skills.

It's a rotation to maintain buffs, dots, ac's, and weaves. Take any builds into current content that was made with VR16 in mind like Vet WGT, IP, or MSA and see if just spamming the same skill over and over is enough to see you through.

Posts like this and their attempts to be cute or funny are a large part of the problem...

LOLOLOL look at this guy. I personally play with vangy and the number of rotations he uses to make his stam dk viable is insane. Compared to Sorcs who just stack Shields and Templars that some jabs. Hell I even agree on the nightblade part. vMSA is supposed to be hard for everyone, not just stam classes. Stam classes have access to 2 heals. How do you expect them to clear vMSA without going into a gold deficit. I've lost all my soul gems, all my repair kits and close to 10000 gold on repairs and I can't get past stage 3 cause of the stranglers bug. So please tell me (I know your a sorc) how to do it? Get off your high horse and maybe not use shield stacking and clear the arena. Then come talk to us

Yeah most of these people who think changes aren't needed are people who haven't experienced vMSA problems first hand man. I'm done arguing here although I do appreciate the shout out.

DanielWinterborn wrote: »

Ohh so when i said that VMA is too hard and can't be completed by more than 90% of the people everyone snapped and talked smack, a week later same thing going around from the same persons that told me to stuff it. Haha noobs, you know who you are

A lot of guys needed their week 1 clears to brag but that's over now so ZOS will probably be adjusting a few things in the next patches.
However I do hope they dont just take the easy route and nerf it into the ground, I hope they correctly adjust the damage that is overwhelming other classes so we can still have healthy competition

Deleted.

Vangy wrote: »

Guess every single stam dps DK in all my 5 guilds are all doing it wrong huh. Why use WB or Rapid strikes when we can spam flying blade! Im gona go tell them this leet new dps skill!

Jokes aside.... dude... no. Flying blade costs way too much stamina and if ur running burning breath, unstable flame and flying blade u have 3 things to refresh every 10 seconds. You will have about 5 seconds or so to cast ur molten and try to squeeze in a heavy attack. Not to mention caltrops and eruption need to be up as well if your running valkyns skoria (nerfed but still viable). The only good thing about flying blade is that its ranged and its good for those phases where boss does some aoe crap and when u have to move while not losing dps. Using it as a main spender in vWGT/ICP is suicide because u cant just sit there and spam flying blade. Ur gona be dodge rolling sprinting etc etc.

You're only using Flying Blade as a repeatable instant cast damage source. It doesn't need to be done every 10 seconds because it's not your source of Major Savagery. That's what Rally or Pots are for. Furthermore Burning Breath is only used on trash mobs and adds the tank with not taunt. It doesn't have to be maintained continuosly.

I don't really care if you believe me or not. Frankly if Flying Blade was a DK skill you'd use it, cause like I said it's not about whether DK is actually up to par. It's about you not feeling like a DK because you don't get to stock your bar with DK skills.

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Guess every single stam dps DK in all my 5 guilds are all doing it wrong huh. Why use WB or Rapid strikes when we can spam flying blade! Im gona go tell them this leet new dps skill!

Jokes aside.... dude... no. Flying blade costs way too much stamina and if ur running burning breath, unstable flame and flying blade u have 3 things to refresh every 10 seconds. You will have about 5 seconds or so to cast ur molten and try to squeeze in a heavy attack. Not to mention caltrops and eruption need to be up as well if your running valkyns skoria (nerfed but still viable). The only good thing about flying blade is that its ranged and its good for those phases where boss does some aoe crap and when u have to move while not losing dps. Using it as a main spender in vWGT/ICP is suicide because u cant just sit there and spam flying blade. Ur gona be dodge rolling sprinting etc etc.

You're only using Flying Blade as a repeatable instant cast damage source. It doesn't need to be done every 10 seconds because it's not your source of Major Savagery. That's what Rally or Pots are for. Furthermore Burning Breath is only used on trash mobs and adds the tank with not taunt. It doesn't have to be maintained continuosly.

I don't really care if you believe me or not. Frankly if Flying Blade was a DK skill you'd use it, cause like I said it's not about whether DK is actually up to par. It's about you not feeling like a DK because you don't get to stock your bar with DK skills.

*major brutality u mean. Savagery will come from expert hunter or fob or pots. And no. Recasting rally sets u back by around 8 k dps and casting flying blade sets u back by around 2.5k dps per use. Trying to use both in any rotation is not only going to go badly but run u out of stamina fast. Especially since any decent dk will focus on max stam over stam regen. I have close to 40k stam and only 900 stam regen. I juggle ultimates and earthen heart tree skills properly for stamina. With 4.2k weapon damage and 72%crit it does very very well. Flying blade...not so much.

It's pretty clear to me now that you have no dk or are just trolling while trying to push some ridiculous agenda that I want to stock my bars with dk skills. No I don't. I want obsidian shield to not just be used for the major mending but actually grant me a decent shield. Not some joke of a 2.5k damage shield. I want gdb to be actually useful in pvp. I want to have a class based GAP closer that dosent bug out 70% of the time due to y axis issues. This is where I stop debating this because you clearly have 0 clue on the dk class and it's issues right now. .... I mean really... Flying blade as your main stamina spender.... Since your so adamant on this imma go test this out tmr in the off chance you aren't trolling. I'm not holding my breath though cos like I said. If your right then at least 20 other players I know who pull well over 15k easily are doing it wrong. Not impossible but very improbable.

Vangy wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Guess every single stam dps DK in all my 5 guilds are all doing it wrong huh. Why use WB or Rapid strikes when we can spam flying blade! Im gona go tell them this leet new dps skill!

Jokes aside.... dude... no. Flying blade costs way too much stamina and if ur running burning breath, unstable flame and flying blade u have 3 things to refresh every 10 seconds. You will have about 5 seconds or so to cast ur molten and try to squeeze in a heavy attack. Not to mention caltrops and eruption need to be up as well if your running valkyns skoria (nerfed but still viable). The only good thing about flying blade is that its ranged and its good for those phases where boss does some aoe crap and when u have to move while not losing dps. Using it as a main spender in vWGT/ICP is suicide because u cant just sit there and spam flying blade. Ur gona be dodge rolling sprinting etc etc.

You're only using Flying Blade as a repeatable instant cast damage source. It doesn't need to be done every 10 seconds because it's not your source of Major Savagery. That's what Rally or Pots are for. Furthermore Burning Breath is only used on trash mobs and adds the tank with not taunt. It doesn't have to be maintained continuosly.

I don't really care if you believe me or not. Frankly if Flying Blade was a DK skill you'd use it, cause like I said it's not about whether DK is actually up to par. It's about you not feeling like a DK because you don't get to stock your bar with DK skills.

*major brutality u mean. Savagery will come from expert hunter or fob or pots. And no. Recasting rally sets u back by around 8 k dps and casting flying blade sets u back by around 2.5k dps per use. Trying to use both in any rotation is not only going to go badly but run u out of stamina fast. Especially since any decent dk will focus on max stam over stam regen. I have close to 40k stam and only 900 stam regen. I juggle ultimates and earthen heart tree skills properly for stamina. With 4.2k weapon damage and 72%crit it does very very well. Flying blade...not so much.

It's pretty clear to me now that you have no dk or are just trolling while trying to push some ridiculous agenda that I want to stock my bars with dk skills. No I don't. I want obsidian shield to not just be used for the major mending but actually grant me a decent shield. Not some joke of a 2.5k damage shield. I want gdb to be actually useful in pvp. I want to have a class based GAP closer that dosent bug out 70% of the time due to y axis issues. This is where I stop debating this because you clearly have 0 clue on the dk class and it's issues right now. .... I mean really... Flying blade as your main stamina spender.... Since your so adamant on this imma go test this out tmr in the off chance you aren't trolling. I'm not holding my breath though cos like I said. If your right then at least 20 other players I know who pull well over 15k easily are doing it wrong. Not impossible but very improbable.

@Vangy
HOW ABOUT you keep up igneous Weapons 100% of the time. Keep up Unstable Flame, Caltrops and Rending Slashes up all time. NO burning Breath! NO Light attacks! I repeat NO *** light attacks! Weave Heavy Attacks with Flying Blade all the time and keep your dots up. This Heavy Attack Weaving needs to be perfect. You need to weave in a way that the game just exactly takes those Heavys as fully charged Heavy Attacks. More DPS than WB and 100% Stamina all the time because you Heavy Attack almost every second. (I have less than 800 regen) Tell me more about those Stamina issues you have with Flying Blade. When facing multiple Targets use Burning Breath instead of Rending Slashes and Steel Tornado instead of Flying Blade. (Multiple targets with the same amount of health --> Spam Tornado and scream for repentance, Multiple Targets where one has more more health than the others or a higher priority --> Heavy Weave with Steel Tornado on that target.) Everything else stays the same. Flying Blade currently is the only Single Target Physical Instant DMG ability (Except Silver Lash, but Damage is too low). And such an ability is needed for this kind of Heavy Attack Weaving. When We eventually get a Stamina Whip, then you should use that instead.

This is a tricky playstyle because of the weaving. If you do it too fast or too slow your DPS will immediatly be ***. This is the way to squeeze out most DPS out of the Stamina DK. It took me months to perfect this playstyle and get the Weaving to a perfect spot. It's a very demanding and interesting playstyle and not just spamming x or y. It also offers you the option to Block while using flying Blade / Setting up dots. WB can easily destroy your day because you can't always block when you'd like to.

And yes Most Stamina DKs are doing it wrong and that is mainly due to WB spam being the easy way to do ok DPS (and then they complain, pff). People are not theorycrafting enough, not trying and testing enough. Also other playstyles are way harder to learn and to play perfectly. People are lazy. Igneous Weapons / Molten Armaments is the trump card DK has. By far the Strongest and most build defining skill the DK can use ... and nobody uses it efficiently. This skill alone makes something (Heavy Attacks) that is supposed to be only used when you are out of Stamina your main source of Damage AND deletes Stamina Problems entirely.

@Xantaria

Wblow is more dps with kena single target wise, HOWEVER, no way to sustain that shizzle in Maelstrom Arena.
So with Ingeous/Molten you will be able to weave with no issues and a full dmg build I guess.

I guess tho DW/Bow is overall more dps and Trashmobs will die faster than with 2H/DW or 2H/Bow.

I might try again but I am not used to the playstyle with DW. I do know that Wblow>HA deals tons of dmg tho weaved correctly, yet 99% of ppl will not be able to weave correctly which is why they will not consider this a "solution"

@Xantaria : tried ur build out. Sorry to say it isnt working. Even with igneous up at 100% and using unstable flame + blood craze + caltrops with flying blade as main spender it dosent work. Went 2 hours testing on all kinds of bosses with guild.

Try this isntead: for 2 piece kena,

Rally>cacltrops>LA>WB>LA (procs kena)> unstable flame> WB ( to get empower)+ Animation cancelled HA (get forceful passive)>WB.. rinse and repeat while maintaining caltrops. Use ulti right after WB to get empower buff. Ur ulti hits 20% harder, WB empowers ur next attack by 20%, forceful passive buffs ur next ability by 10%. Kena buffs ur weapon damage to sick levels. Maintain resources with the occasional molten into heavy attack + stam pots.

For 2 piece valkyns, just throw all ur dots down and spam RS for single with Medium weave and steel nado for AOE.

For briar thorn : Hands down RS build OWNS due to the sheer number of hits and proc of briarthorn.

No one is using flying blade spam cos it DOSENT work. It does not pull more DPS than a WB/RS build simply due to the fact that it dosent synergise well with either kena or valkyns. Maybe if u have 0 monster set you might do more dps but i didnt bother testing with no monster sets....

Vangy wrote: »

@Xantaria : tried ur build out. Sorry to say it isnt working. Even with igneous up at 100% and using unstable flame + blood craze + caltrops with flying blade as main spender it dosent work. Went 2 hours testing on all kinds of bosses with guild.

Try this isntead: for 2 piece kena,

Rally>cacltrops>LA>WB>LA (procs kena)> unstable flame> WB ( to get empower)+ Animation cancelled HA (get forceful passive)>WB.. rinse and repeat while maintaining caltrops. Use ulti right after WB to get empower buff. Ur ulti hits 20% harder, WB empowers ur next attack by 20%, forceful passive buffs ur next ability by 10%. Kena buffs ur weapon damage to sick levels. Maintain resources with the occasional molten into heavy attack + stam pots.

For 2 piece valkyns, just throw all ur dots down and spam RS for single with Medium weave and steel nado for AOE.

For briar thorn : Hands down RS build OWNS due to the sheer number of hits and proc of briarthorn.

No one is using flying blade spam cos it DOSENT work. It does not pull more DPS than a WB/RS build simply due to the fact that it dosent synergise well with either kena or valkyns. Maybe if u have 0 monster set you might do more dps but i didnt bother testing with no monster sets....

you have to realize tho, in Maelstrom Heavy weaving build is good because you have more sustain, for trial wblow is better tho.

Always depends on the situation

Vangy wrote: »

@Xantaria : tried ur build out. Sorry to say it isnt working. Even with igneous up at 100% and using unstable flame + blood craze + caltrops with flying blade as main spender it dosent work. Went 2 hours testing on all kinds of bosses with guild.

Try this isntead: for 2 piece kena,

Rally>cacltrops>LA>WB>LA (procs kena)> unstable flame> WB ( to get empower)+ Animation cancelled HA (get forceful passive)>WB.. rinse and repeat while maintaining caltrops. Use ulti right after WB to get empower buff. Ur ulti hits 20% harder, WB empowers ur next attack by 20%, forceful passive buffs ur next ability by 10%. Kena buffs ur weapon damage to sick levels. Maintain resources with the occasional molten into heavy attack + stam pots.

For 2 piece valkyns, just throw all ur dots down and spam RS for single with Medium weave and steel nado for AOE.

For briar thorn : Hands down RS build OWNS due to the sheer number of hits and proc of briarthorn.

No one is using flying blade spam cos it DOSENT work. It does not pull more DPS than a WB/RS build simply due to the fact that it dosent synergise well with either kena or valkyns. Maybe if u have 0 monster set you might do more dps but i didnt bother testing with no monster sets....

As i said, this kind of weaving is nothing you just 'do'. It needs a lot of practice and I'm only doing good on it because I played this for more than a year.
And yes I do not use monster sets.