Solo vet arena proves DK needs to be buffed

posilnahtorg

Only 28 DK in EU leaderboard looks like good sign for ZOS. Might be they would understand that nerfed DK too much, specially magic builds.

Sorcs leaderboard was full in first few days after Orsinium lunch. NB few days later. Templars still not full 100.

Jura23

More children play DK because it sounds cool.

L2P

tangy.citrus

not even. A lot of people are grinding for gear on their sorc/nb first before doing dk. It may be easier on some classes than others, but that doesnt mean any class needs a buff or the trial needs a nerf.

It comes down to a lack of player skill - working with what you have. Dk's can definitely do it.

Sharee

tangy.citrus wrote: »

It comes down to a lack of player skill - working with what you have. Dk's can definitely do it.

For some statistically impossible reason, all the unskilled players chose to play DK's.

I_killed_Vivec

tangy.citrus wrote: »

not even. A lot of people are grinding for gear on their sorc/nb first before doing dk. It may be easier on some classes than others, but that doesnt mean any class needs a buff or the trial needs a nerf.

It comes down to a lack of player skill - working with what you have. Dk's can definitely do it.

"It may be easier on some classes than others"...

Shouldn't the difficulty level be the same for all classes? How can it be a lack of player skill when you say it's easier for some classes?

And people are using "easy" classes to grind for gear?

Well, that just reinforces it... "I can do it on my sorc, but I need some better gear before I try on my DK".

posilnahtorg

I guess u r that kind of sorcs with OP dps and 20k+ shield

UrQuan

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

Personofsecrets

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

UrQuan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

I_killed_Vivec

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

So end-game solo PvE and PvP... not just one specific piece of content.

While vMA might not be "proof", there have been several detailed posts looking at the imbalances in the game - particularly with regard to DK and templars falling behind NB and sorcs. These issues have been evident and documented for a while, long before the leader boards of mVA provided any "corroboration".

UrQuan

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

So end-game solo PvE and PvP... not just one specific piece of content.

While vMA might not be "proof", there have been several detailed posts looking at the imbalances in the game - particularly with regard to DK and templars falling behind NB and sorcs. These issues have been evident and documented for a while, long before the leader boards of mVA provided any "corroboration".

And if you want anybody to take you seriously you need to point out each of the issues that have been documented, instead of holding up one specific thing and calling it proof.

temjiu

I'm wondering if that's half the reason they put in the area...to give players a way to individually push each class to see it's potential in solo PvE settings. Very easy way to test balance.

Sharee

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

The thing is that maelstrom is not just one piece of content. It is a set of many varied challenges, basically you get everything that the game is capable of throwing at you - getting thrown at you. The place pushes every class to it's limits. As such, this variety of challenges serves as a very good indication of class balance, not against each other, but next to each other.

When if put through this mix of challenges, one class has a success rate of only 25% of another class, something is off.

UrQuan

Sharee wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

The thing is that maelstrom is not just one piece of content. It is a set of many varied challenges, basically you get everything that the game is capable of throwing at you - getting thrown at you. The place pushes every class to it's limits. As such, this variety of challenges serves as a very good indication of class balance, not against each other, but next to each other.

When if put through this mix of challenges, one class has a success rate of only 25% of another class, something is off.

No, it's one piece of content. The very fact that it's forced solo content means that it's not the be-all and end-all of class balance. Some classes may be stronger solo than others, and other classes may be stronger in groups than others. That's not inherently a problem, or evidence that one class needs buffs/nerfs.

Nifty2g

many people rerolled after the 10 maybe 12 nerfs the dk class had.

Personofsecrets

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

And my point is that vMA is just one of the pieces of the puzzle. Some of the same reasons that DKs can fall short in PVP apply to vMA.

Personofsecrets

@UrQuan , I see this as "another piece of proof" thread not a "there is a minor thing that DK's can't do" panic thread. What you write is true as not jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence is fine, but there has to be a point where the evidence really isn't that limited. What if in a year from now only 20 DKs have finished vMA on NA? Would that be enough of a signal at that point? Yes that is an exaggeration, but we have to, at some point, agree on proper goal posts to set which would let us all see, once the goal is met, that DK has issues.

Personofsecrets

UrQuan wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

The thing is that maelstrom is not just one piece of content. It is a set of many varied challenges, basically you get everything that the game is capable of throwing at you - getting thrown at you. The place pushes every class to it's limits. As such, this variety of challenges serves as a very good indication of class balance, not against each other, but next to each other.

When if put through this mix of challenges, one class has a success rate of only 25% of another class, something is off.

No, it's one piece of content. The very fact that it's forced solo content means that it's not the be-all and end-all of class balance. Some classes may be stronger solo than others, and other classes may be stronger in groups than others. That's not inherently a problem, or evidence that one class needs buffs/nerfs.

No one has said it is the 'be-all end-all" of class balance. That is a straw man argument. The DK problem could show an inherent issue with class balance. It doesn't necessarily, but it could and eventually, as we discover the DK fall from favor in more and more content, the most parsimonious explanation will be that the DK is underpowered or not in balance with the other classes.

DRXHarbinger

Lol at games that require skill. Do something enough and you'll become good at it. Skill is another thing. Otherwise we'd all be earning millions in whatever sport we choose.

Shader_Shibes

temjiu wrote: »

I'm wondering if that's half the reason they put in the area...to give players a way to individually push each class to see it's potential in solo PvE settings. Very easy way to test balance.

Interesting theory.

posilnahtorg

So all agreed that DK have issues

UrQuan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@UrQuan , I see this as "another piece of proof" thread not a "there is a minor thing that DK's can't do" panic thread.

And in that context it's perfectly fine to look at DK performance in VMA. That clearly wasn't the intent of the OP, though, because if it was then OP would have brought up other things rather than just leaving it at "Solo vet arena proves DK needs to be buffed". Which is the thread title, and which OP has done nothing to expand upon.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

No one has said it is the 'be-all end-all" of class balance. That is a straw man argument.

Um, did you not see the post I was directly replying to which essentially said exactly that?

For the record, I have no issue with the position you're taking in this thread. It's perfectly reasonable, because you're only using this as one piece of evidence that DKs may need to be buffed. That's exactly how the DK performance in VMA should be taken. I only take issue with people like OP and Sharee who claim that VMA in and of itself proves that DKs need buffs, without also pointing to other pieces of content as supporting evidence. Are the VMA leaderboards suggestive that DKs may have issues? Sure! Is other evidence needed to tell if they're truly unbalanced compared to other classes? Yes! You seem to understand this, but some others don't.

Joy_Division

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

You think the "DK needs a buff" call just originated with Malestrom Arena?

Shadesofkin

There are a few places I feel that DK's could use a tune up. The class has been hit with a number of changes over the course of the games life, it might not kill the Dev team to consider reversing or two of those choices.

Sharee

UrQuan wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

One specific piece of content is easier to complete on some classes than others. Clearly that must mean that across the board those classes are superior to the ones that have a harder time at that one specific piece of content. Surely there are no other factors to consider, because one piece of content that requires certain specific build types to complete is clearly the be-all and end-all.

DK's have a huge some major issues in PVP as well. Let's not forget about that major part of the game that isn't just vMA

Maybe they do have problems in PVP. My point is that looking at one specific piece of content and calling it proof is inherently flawed.

The thing is that maelstrom is not just one piece of content. It is a set of many varied challenges, basically you get everything that the game is capable of throwing at you - getting thrown at you. The place pushes every class to it's limits. As such, this variety of challenges serves as a very good indication of class balance, not against each other, but next to each other.

When if put through this mix of challenges, one class has a success rate of only 25% of another class, something is off.

No, it's one piece of content. The very fact that it's forced solo content means that it's not the be-all and end-all of class balance. Some classes may be stronger solo than others, and other classes may be stronger in groups than others. That's not inherently a problem, or evidence that one class needs buffs/nerfs.

Having the class stand on it's own, and comparing it to other classes standing on their own, can reveal issues that would otherwise stay obscured by how the classes interact with each other. No-one is calling this the be-all end-all of class balance, rather it is an indicator that something's not right.

And if you want to call the maelstrom arena with it's myriad different ways it puts a character to test "one piece of content", then you might as well call the whole game "one piece of content".

posilnahtorg

DK still good as tank due to chain no1 else have, but all these nerfs made most of skills useless.

So DK have to dd with desto skills and heal with resto.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

So DK is super challenging to play now? I read a thread somewhere on the Argonian healing DK tank. Is that viable? I kind of like the lizard people they remind me of little Godzilla's

Shadesofkin

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

So DK is super challenging to play now? I read a thread somewhere on the Argonian healing DK tank. Is that viable? I kind of like the lizard people they remind me of little Godzilla's

I would argue that no class is super challenging to play, but the changes made to the DK (to remove it from being Easy Mode) have also gimped it along the way. Not much, mind you, but just enough that they might need to consider looking over those changes again.

Beesting

As long as we can't see how many people tried but did not make it onto the leaderboards it is hard to say

I know i can fill my kill enemy nightblades quest in pvp a lot faster because there a just much more nb now than dk

Dk might be hardest to play after sorc, we cant just jabjabjab through everything or use siphoning attacks

I normally have to think about my skill rotation not just spam one skill

And lets not forget many people on the leaderboard got there because they had "help" from the immediate stam regen bug and the refreshing path bug,

If you compare the scores before and after the bugs have been fixed it clearly shows that ^^

Xjcon

As many already know DK is in a great place for group PVE dps. But Zos nerfed DK for PVP and it's those PVP builds that are shining in VMA.

If ZoS buffed Ignious shield to be as big as Sorc shield DK would be right in line with the rest of the classes.

Sharmony

Try be specific when dealing problems otherwise it helps no one. How so? What needs to buff? etc...