http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2387757#Comment_2387757

page 1... about half way down... seems to be some sort of plan in the works.

Of course it's possible! Anything is possible! It's just a question of what things and how many things will get broken in the removal process and how to mitigate the damage.

I am pretty sure they are trying to figure all that out before they actually remove veteran ranks. I hope so, anyway.

I feel they're pretty determined to do it. Last I heard was "after Orsinium". Now whether that's before Thieves Guild or not is another matter...

I'm really REALLY hoping they just convert them to regular levels. I mean... technically, that would be "removing" them.

I go over the reasons why converting them would be best here http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/227618/why-zos-should-convert-veteran-ranks-to-regular-levels

And that thread got buried really quickly. I'd appreciate a comment or two to get it visible again.

Xendyn wrote: »

I feel they're pretty determined to do it. Last I heard was "after Orsinium". Now whether that's before Thieves Guild or not is another matter...

"After Orsinium" could be anywhere between later today and the heat death of the Universe. Or "soon™", which is even longer.

If the only reason people want vet levels gone is because of how long it takes to level up, well then, I dislike them.

I love this game BECAUSE of how much it takes to earn things. Making it easier to level or to max out would greatly disappoint me. They have already made so many changes so that players don't whine about playing the game, why do more?

Sure get rid of Vet levels, sure to 80, just make each level take MORE xp than a vet level to gain.

I really don't understand the prob of vet levels, I do not see any sound arguments against them outside of shear laziness.

@Gidorick your post (the link) actually didn't give even one reason as to "why" it only provided "how"

So you admit the ONLY "problem" vet levels is an increase in required xp?
Sorry not good enough for me, that is just... a poor excuse to reduce the amount of content in the game.

I had this discussion with my Ktor friend, he said his ktor guild said, "the grind is too much for us to play." To which my response was, "good, I don't want slackers playing anyway!"

My god, and we thought PUGs were bad now!

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So you admit the ONLY "problem" vet levels is an increase in required xp?
Sorry not good enough for me, that is just... a poor excuse to reduce the amount of content in the game.

I had this discussion with my Ktor friend, he said his ktor guild said, "the grind is too much for us to play." To which my response was, "good, I don't want slackers playing anyway!"

My god, and we thought PUGs were bad now!

Ha... it's a game, man.... not a job. Relax.
The terms "gamer" and "slacker" seem to go together as it is...kinda hard to coin someone in game as a slacker.

Lol i don't do anything "casually" its the best or nothing...

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Gidorick your post (the link) actually didn't give even one reason as to "why" it only provided "how"

You added this after I quoted @Waffenknecht. Do you understand the difference between "Why" and "How"?

• Why is for what reason or purpose.
• How is in what way or manner; by what means.

This link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/227618/why-zos-should-convert-veteran-ranks-to-regular-levels/p1 gives 4 reasons WHY ZOS should convert Vet Ranks instead of remove them.

This link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1 gives a manner in which it can be accomplished. This is the HOW thread.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So you admit the ONLY "problem" vet levels is an increase in required xp?
Sorry not good enough for me, that is just... a poor excuse to reduce the amount of content in the game.

I had this discussion with my Ktor friend, he said his ktor guild said, "the grind is too much for us to play." To which my response was, "good, I don't want slackers playing anyway!"

My god, and we thought PUGs were bad now!

The problem is that the level progression goes from having to earn 143,255 to get from level 49 to level 50... to having to earn 850,000 to get to VR1 to VR2. That's about 6X the effort to reach the next level. I totally understand how that could be a turnoff to many players.

If you can't comprehend how this is an issue then I don't think there's anything we can do for you.

VR levels turn some players off.
Stopping progression would turn other players off.
Converting VR levels to regular levels would be a happy medium.

I honestly don't get players who actively want other players to quit playing.

Side note... at this point part of me thinks you're just having fun trolling us.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Gidorick your post (the link) actually didn't give even one reason as to "why" it only provided "how"

You added this after I quoted @Waffenknecht. Do you understand the difference between "Why" and "How"

• Why is for what reason or purpose.
• How is in what way or manner; by what means.

This link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/227618/why-zos-should-convert-veteran-ranks-to-regular-levels/p1 gives 4 reasons WHY ZOS should convert Vet Ranks instead of remove them.

This link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1 gives a manner in which it can be accomplished. This is the HOW thread.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So you admit the ONLY "problem" vet levels is an increase in required xp?
Sorry not good enough for me, that is just... a poor excuse to reduce the amount of content in the game.

I had this discussion with my Ktor friend, he said his ktor guild said, "the grind is too much for us to play." To which my response was, "good, I don't want slackers playing anyway!"

My god, and we thought PUGs were bad now!

The problem is that the level progression goes from having to earn 143,255 to get from level 49 to level 50... to having to earn 850,000 to get to VR1 to VR2. That's about 6X the effort to reach the next level. I totally understand how that could be a turnoff to many players.

If you can't comprehend how this is an issue then I don't think there's anything we can do for you.

VR levels turn some players off.
Stopping progression would turn other players off.
Converting VR levels to regular levels would be a happy medium.

I honestly don't get players who actively want other players to quit playing.

Side note... at this point part of me thinks you're just having fun trolling us.

It doesnt matter that you need 8x the xp if you get like 6x the xp for each quest. Its an increase of effort to reach the next lvl but not that huge and each v rank needs the same amount of xp

Fair point @ngt-Über-Zwerge. Then one should then ask... if you get 6X the XP for each quest... why increase the XP requirement and amount of XP earned in the first place? Seems like they would just cancel each other out.

That being said, earning Vet Ranks don't "feel" as fast as pre-50 levels, that's the general point I'm arguing.

Unfortunately @Waffennacht, players perception and feelings matter more in a game then what they are actually doing. If a player gets frustrated or doesn't feel like they're being rewarded properly, they will quit. And even though many people may think "good, we don't need 'em"... les players for a game means less income, means less support, means a bleaker future for that game.

That being said, I'm comfortable with the whole agree to disagree stance.

What happened in neverwinter?

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's not so much what happened to neverwinter, its more What it is. In one month I had maxed out 4 alts and did all content in it.

Its your standard mmo and insanely boring now. Many players left (and it's free to play! It even has a gold to crown exchange, *usin eso words for easy understanding* the one cool thing about it)

Eso seems to be the "adult" mmorpg, in fact isn't the average player age for eso like 28 or higher? I don't want another kiddie mmo.

Again this is just my personal opinion, I don't want anyone thinking im saying there is new bug or something

Oh one more thing, I try very hard not to troll or not to appear to be trolling. Sorry if that was the vibe I was giving.

Have you played Neverwinter recently? Leveling to 60 is so fast it makes a 9yr old with ADD wonder what he just missed. If you played earlier...it's even faster now! sadly enough though, the jaunt from 60-70 is so horribly slow and grindy and time consuming that people are literally leaving the game because of it. It's EXACTLY the same issue that ESO had. 1-50 fun paced, interesting, and new. Vr = slow, painful, immersion breaking (especially if your really into the PvP fraction war), isolationist (you get separated from the general populace in a "different reality" with the other 4 VR's playing at that time), and frustrating (pre-changes, VR was like trying to swim upstream in a raging storm. Unless you played a well known OP build, you pretty much had to group up to survive VR). it was like a cold bucket of water.

playing 1-50 feels very good at this point in the game IMO. Not too fast, not painfully slow. hitting VR is like hitting a brick wall. You may just see it as extra exp...many people see it as changing the game they grew to enjoy 1-50. And not in a good way. a big part (part only mind you) is watching that VR bar grow at a mere fraction of the last level you just did. and the saltwater crab that you killed in 3 seconds on your alt, is now spanking your mighty VR1 that just killed Molag Baal. It's like running a 24 mile race in a souped up ferrari, and then being given a yugo, and told that the last 4 miles of the race are actually a cross country trip...in the yugo.

But in all honesty, it's not just the "exp" or the leveling curve. that HAS been improved, and so has the difficulty of the VR areas. but it's still way to extreme and different. But in addition to that, It's what you are forced to to in order to gain anything in that horribly slow leveling curve. Cadwell's was a bad choice...but that's not necessarily the VR levels as much as what they require you to do to get your VR levels.

If they simply adjusted the curve as mentioned earlier, and given us areas like Orsinium instead of "hey, let's make them run the same content they just ran on an alt, but make it tougher, slower, and make them die more!" People might have actually hung around.

and prior to Craiglonely, your ONLY options was cadwell's if you wanted to get to endgame. A system that many people hated (I was one of them, left the game once i realized what the VR levels were). Caldwell needs to disappear as an eldergame thing. they just need to allow Vets to roam with the lower level players in those areas. make the questing optional...I should be able to run some quests in Gleelnumbra...then hop over to Stonefalls and do the same thing, and then head back to Auridon if i want. everything post 50 should be optional.

Plus, one other thing that killing VR would help with is players who want to be able to try out the new areas, but can't because they are 15 VR levels behind. if there IS no Vr level, then they can hit 50, and join up with their friends for some fun in the new areas. I'm still not quite sure how they will implement this side of it. How do you make content challenging for those who like to push themselves, while not having a tiered structure to provide the gateways for the challenge. I don't know. Most MMO's get lazy and use levels. Others use tiered randomized instancing where you can go as high as you can, and to get higher you will need better stats, simple as that. that's what Diablo3 did. they have Paragon levels (similar to Champion points, almost identical), and they're end game is opening portals in challenge zones where you are timed and go until you die.

The better your stats (from gear as well as paragon levels), the higher you can go, and the better chance of getting rare items you have (drop chances are increased). as well you get special equipment that you can level with you (slotted items, much like enchantments), and you get exp stones for those items from these instances. So the higher you go, the better stuff you can get. your not locked away from the better stuff at lower tiers, but you have a much lower chance of getting it.

That's just an example, and it would have to be adjusted a deal to work withing ESO's framework, but it's an idea, and it's doable with the current system - VR. Moral of the story...VR isn't needed, and it can be done away with and other systems put in place that do not force players though a bad designed system to hit a level cap just to get to the elder game. Getting rid of VR solves many problems, as well as taking caldwell's and making it an option instead of mandatory.

VR is going away because it was a bad design from the get go (even if it has been improved). But it's not the only thing that is broke that they are changing. It's just one of them, and a small part of a very big process to make this game what it should have been...a true MMO worth of the ES title.

The removal is coming eventually but is currently not possible as Zenimax needs to work out all the details of the removal, and there are very many!

Do I want VRs removed? Yes.
Do I want needed exp to be reduced (from 850k to 200k)? Yes.
I just don't want to spend months doing the same quests over and over again. I have not so much free times like you and I don't like the idea of wasting it in this way (even if I like the game). They can keep them if the reduce the experience and if every gear is avaible for every level. If you are a quest maniac, you can still do them. VRs are not the content. Removing them won't make the game empty. They were designed badly and I still wonder why they are still here (Jesus, just change the 850k to at least 400k in a patch, you don't need to do it in a DLC).