Maelstrom Arena Weapons & Magicka users

Erondil · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.

During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

No.

In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

With swords:

With staff:

This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

Or this much using a restoration staff:

ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.

Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

No dude.

The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4

Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeN99_z7N6M

People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.

Look at the cost of webs. Look what spammable aoe sorcs use. You know whats the tooltip damage gain with 2h/dw instead of staff? Roughly 1k dmg. You know whats the damages of medium weave? Roughly 1.5-3k. Dw is better for full dmg burst setup, but in most situations I would use destro all the way on my sorc.
Utility of destro? A strong ranged immobilize with cold staff (you will laugh because your mind seems a bit closed but I can say frost touch is very strong agaisnt melee builds) a decent knock back with fire touch, eventhough youre right useless agaisnt shield because of a bug. Also a way to have endless ressources with a full dmg build thanks to weakness of elements. Another chance to procc disintegration for sorcs thanks to shock light attack A heavy attack to give back some ressources...
Already a good amout of advantages, that could worth the loss of spell damages.
Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol).

Yes stamina got an advantage with anime cancel compared to magicka users, but magicka users also have a ton of other advantages over them.cba list them because its not at all the subject of the thread and magicka/stamina comparison is endless, but if you cant find one I hope zis will never listen to you about balance.

You are probably one of those people who think magicka DKs are still OP.

This meant "I have no arguments left and I want to appear smart with something that has nothing to do with the discussion"
I've never considered dk being op since 1.3 btw, in 1.5 nb was the best all the way imo. Also I am and have always been a magicka nb, I hate playing stamina so I have no personnal interest in defending stam build if you wanna know, just doing so for the sake of balance.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No dude.

The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.

Inb4 "You're probably one of those people who think magicka DK are still OP"

You don't seem interested in an actual discussion.'

You claimed that a Templar was the only class who benefited from dual wield. Two nightblades in this thread said they believed dual wielding was better.

I showed video proof of how destructive touch *doesn't work*. You are telling me this very skill is strong. No it's not. It is unreliable because you can't count on it it work.

You just say stuff like "dual wield easy to coutner lol" and insinutate the duel wielding is done for rp. Like it's not even possible. One of the best sorcs before he quit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbj8bQc8E_M

You never bothered addressing the whole issue of healing with swords being better than a restoration staff. Those restoration staff passives will not exceed the amount offered by spellpower (plus the tempalr's own healing passives). Or why non-templar healers who use a restoration staff are stuck losing hundreds of spell damage to their utility spells. I am stuck using a restoration staff to heal in PvE not because it is balanced, but because I need the healing springs spell from it to do a trial.

You just passed over the whole issue of stamina users not having to sacrifice their weapon damage and gaining the benefit of weaving that scales with their main attribute and with their champion points. You just say magicka "a ton of other advantages"? Like what? Like a passive that returns a small amount of resources if an enemy dies to a specific destruction skill when stamina users have a passive that is a cost reduction to the entire skill line? What are these tons of advantages that make it so magicka users losing hundreds of spellpower is balanced with stamina users?

What? I said for PvE dps templar is the only one for who 2*dw seems to be the best setup for other classes its usually 1 bar destro one bar dw except dk 2*destro. Myself I use dw+destro for PvE dps and dw+resto in PvP...
I said cold touch is a very strong immobilize, and fire reach would be strong if it wasnt bugged. I never said dual wield was for rp??!! Read again what I wrote please, or you misunderstood everything, or my english is really bad. Sorry if the latter is true, english is not my native language.

I talked about dw vs resto for PvE healer as well, and do the math 15% on your purfying ritual with your resto active makes it more efficient than the one on your dw bar. You say you need resto for healing springs in trial and thats the point dw is better than resto in some situation, but resto has to offer stuff dw doesnt.
Magicka advantages over stamina? 90% of class skills being magicka based. Just to begin with. Shields, better group heals, etc. But I don't think we should start a discusiion about stamina vs magicka right here in this thread, you know those discussions are endless
About best sorcs : I'm from EU so I can't speak about this guy but here the best sorcs I know off use destro. And again I myself find destro sorc tougher to deal with than dw sorcs.

Maulkin · October 2015

@Joy_Division

I understand all your points but what I'm saying it's a double issue and half of it has nothing to do with the destro staff specifically.

As you very well pointed out melee passives (Heavy Weapons/Dual Wield Expert) apply not only to attacks from the respective skill trees, but with all attacks regardless of type. While the same does not apply to destro staves.

In my opinion that is either a bug or an oversight. I don't think the dw/2h passives should apply to all attacks, but given the Battle Spirit nerfs and I would prefer if Destruction Master & Penetrating Magic applied to all attacks too. The situation would be much different then.

Restoration staff is a different case, cause Restoration Expert applies to all heals and increases you heals by 15% on low health enemies. Seeing your tooltips, your Templar heals with DW are 9% better so on low health target having resto gives you a 6% bonus. But having Restoration Master also apply to all heals would certainly make it a better candidate.

The only specific thing about the destro staff is the insane nerfs their AoEs got. Impulse went from an unblockable AoE with 8m radius to a blockable AoE of 6m radius with nerfed damage and nerfed chance to proc elemental effects. All the while Steel Tornado remains OP as feck.

However I'm not a fan of buffing PBAoE because it encourages the balling, "stack to crown" metas in PvP. I'd rather see the ridonkulous Steel Tornado nerfed than Impulse buffed again. WoE should receive a buff, but with the Maelstrom Destro Staff buffing it for PvE there's no chance it's gonna happen.

Anyhow, all this discussion is academic. I have 0 faith in Wrobel being able to bring weapon balance in PvP because he has shown time and again he has no idea about PvP and cares very little for it. His track record proves that. His makes changes with PvE in mind and then makes easy blanket changes to PvP like the Battle Spirit change which ofc doesn't address the real underlying issues.

Joy_Division · October 2015

@Erondil

This is what you said: "Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol)." - like it a a joke that a sorcerer would even consider using dual wield, especially since the "best" sorcerers use destro. Not a joke. Very real reasons.

The resto staff 15% healing passive only applies if your ally is under 30% health. When is this going to happen? Hardly ever. A restoration staff specialty is heals over time, which is meant to maintain allies high health. Ever the "burst" heal of healing ward provides a small heal, which will take a potential recipient out of the under 30% danger zone, and then applies its burst as the shield coverts to health. You cannot assume that the staff''s 15% will cover most of it's heals. In fact, the vast majoirty of the time it won't.

Even if it did, a Templar is still better off using swords. The example I have there is with sup-optimal gear and absent the buffs I will have from spellpower cure, major sorcery, and other bonuses to spell damage - and not even discounting the templar's own healing passives. My breathe of life's will always hit harder. As will my healing rituals, my purifies, my barriers, etc.

Something else to consider. Ever try healing in PvP? You do so with a resto staff and you will get REKT by enemy raid leaders who target their raids DPS at you because that weapon lacks anything in the defense, utility, or survivability. It's just so much easier for a templar healer to use sword and sheild, still get the extra spellpower bonus and survivability to boot, and just spam breath of life.
This doesn't mean it's not possible to use a resto staff to heal. It means it is unnecessarily difficult as there is little gained from using them aside from the skills thy offer, yet have a lot of accompanying disadvantages

Just because I need healing springs to complete a trial does not mean it is OK for the staff to have terrible passives and marginal stuff tied to heavy attacks and lose all that spellpower. It means I am being punished just to use a single essential skill the group needs. That is not balanced. Tanks need the sword and shield line. Yes they lose the dual wield weapon bonus, but they still received an armor set bonus, actually gain more stats because of the shield enchant (a big one a that). They give something up and get something in return in addition to the needed skills that come with a shield. That is balanced.

None of this is considered when the whole medium weave + crushing shock = dual wield debate comes up. As a healer, it is highly annoying that everything is so DPS centric.

You think magicka is better than stamina? Tell me, why do so many DKs think the magicka DK is in a bad place as of right now ... but stamina DKs are actually pretty good? Don't you think it has something to do with the destruction staff not being very competitive? The champion system bias toward stamina (in particularity the damage mitigation)? That a two-handed's naturally high weapon damage makes Wrecking blow + weave a devastating combination? That is so much easier to stack weapon damage and crit for stamina users. That steel tornado is in every possible way superior to impulse? Better group heals? You take a look at the vigor skill lately (something you can use with 2 swords and not a lousy resto staff)?

No, the discussion between stamina and magicka is very relevant. Maybe if destro users didn't have to tank their magicka in order to use impulse, you might see something besides steel tornado on your death recap when a ball group passes you by. That prox det on your recap? That's coming from two swords.

None of this means a sorcerer can't or shouldn't use a destruction staff. I play a sorcerer and I happen to use one. But it is because I use one, I am very much aware just how much I am losing. When I run in my raid, I am painfully aware that my DPS is lower than the steel tornado spammers. Painfully aware that my skills are losing hundreds of spell damage when I use them. What difference does it make if 90% of my class skills are magicka, when the weapon skills stamina users use do not lose their weapon damage? Painfully aware that it's skills are unreliable because they do not work against shielded opponents, cover a quarter of the distance of steel tornado, have no cost reduction, and have its passives tied to its particular skills as opposed to everything like swords.

If you think I'm hating on staves, it's not because I don't like them. It's because I actually want magicka users to be able to use their skills without compromising their builds or other skills, something stamina users need not worry about.

@mike.gaziotisb16_ESO

I agree much of this is independent of actual destro staff and the inconsistency of allowing swords to modify all damage is just mucking up the balance.

Re: resto staffs: it is not the better candidate. See above. It is used not because it makes your healing build better - it does the opposite - but because we need access to healing springs (and combat prayer for those people unable to get minor beserk). Weapons are supposed to augment your builds and make them better in addition to the skills it provides. Dual swords do this. Sword and shield does this. Even a destruction staff can, in some situations, be argued to do this. A restoration staff does not.

None of this mattered much when 1.6 launched when 70 CPs, 30K magicka, and 2000 spellpower were considered high. dual wielding, or the lack thereof, didn't really make that much differnce. With the power creep that comes with end-game progression, better gear, more accessible spellpower bonus - some quite significant and easy to come by - we are now sitting at 501 CPs, 43K magicka, and 4000 spellpower. Now the magnitude of character power is of an entirely different order where old assumptions and stuff taken for granted need to be reevaluated.

But, yes, unfortunately I also have little faith in Wrobel and ESO's combat team.

Erondil · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Erondil

This is what you said: "Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol)." - like it a a joke that a sorcerer would even consider using dual wield, especially since the "best" sorcerers use destro. Not a joke. Very real reasons.

The resto staff 15% healing passive only applies if your ally is under 30% health. When is this going to happen? Hardly ever. A restoration staff specialty is heals over time, which is meant to maintain allies high health. Ever the "burst" heal of healing ward provides a small heal, which will take a potential recipient out of the under 30% danger zone, and then applies its burst as the shield coverts to health. You cannot assume that the staff''s 15% will cover most of it's heals. In fact, the vast majoirty of the time it won't.

Even if it did, a Templar is still better off using swords. The example I have there is with sup-optimal gear and absent the buffs I will have from spellpower cure, major sorcery, and other bonuses to spell damage - and not even discounting the templar's own healing passives. My breathe of life's will always hit harder. As will my healing rituals, my purifies, my barriers, etc.

Something else to consider. Ever try healing in PvP? You do so with a resto staff and you will get REKT by enemy raid leaders who target their raids DPS at you because that weapon lacks anything in the defense, utility, or survivability. It's just so much easier for a templar healer to use sword and sheild, still get the extra spellpower bonus and survivability to boot, and just spam breath of life.
This doesn't mean it's not possible to use a resto staff to heal. It means it is unnecessarily difficult as there is little gained from using them aside from the skills thy offer, yet have a lot of accompanying disadvantages

Just because I need healing springs to complete a trial does not mean it is OK for the staff to have terrible passives and marginal stuff tied to heavy attacks and lose all that spellpower. It means I am being punished just to use a single essential skill the group needs. That is not balanced. Tanks need the sword and shield line. Yes they lose the dual wield weapon bonus, but they still received an armor set bonus, actually gain more stats because of the shield enchant (a big one a that). They give something up and get something in return in addition to the needed skills that come with a shield. That is balanced.

None of this is considered when the whole medium weave + crushing shock = dual wield debate comes up. As a healer, it is highly annoying that everything is so DPS centric.

You think magicka is better than stamina? Tell me, why do so many DKs think the magicka DK is in a bad place as of right now ... but stamina DKs are actually pretty good? Don't you think it has something to do with the destruction staff not being very competitive? The champion system bias toward stamina (in particularity the damage mitigation)? That a two-handed's naturally high weapon damage makes Wrecking blow + weave a devastating combination? That is so much easier to stack weapon damage and crit for stamina users. That steel tornado is in every possible way superior to impulse? Better group heals? You take a look at the vigor skill lately (something you can use with 2 swords and not a lousy resto staff)?

No, the discussion between stamina and magicka is very relevant. Maybe if destro users didn't have to tank their magicka in order to use impulse, you might see something besides steel tornado on your death recap when a ball group passes you by. That prox det on your recap? That's coming from two swords.

None of this means a sorcerer can't or shouldn't use a destruction staff. I play a sorcerer and I happen to use one. But it is because I use one, I am very much aware just how much I am losing. When I run in my raid, I am painfully aware that my DPS is lower than the steel tornado spammers. Painfully aware that my skills are losing hundreds of spell damage when I use them. What difference does it make if 90% of my class skills are magicka, when the weapon skills stamina users use do not lose their weapon damage? Painfully aware that it's skills are unreliable because they do not work against shielded opponents, cover a quarter of the distance of steel tornado, have no cost reduction, and have its passives tied to its particular skills as opposed to everything like swords.

If you think I'm hating on staves, it's not because I don't like them. It's because I actually want magicka users to be able to use their skills without compromising their builds or other skills, something stamina users need not worry about.

Yes I did say destro is better imo for sorcs agaisnt decent players and destro sorcs are tougher to fight agaisnt than dw sorcs for me. It's my feelings, but I see the advantages to run a dw build, especially agaisnt ppl not used to this kind of burst.

In PvP resto templar is imo better than s&b templar when you have a group of 16+ and want to use healing springs (though I run with 12-man group usually so yeah on my templar I will use s&b. Both are good, just there is not one better for every situation.. again.
I agree resto passives should be reworked, but zos shouldnt give staves as much sd as dw because it would reduce the diversity, which is always a bad thing imo. The fact that you have to use healing springs or you want to use doesnt make resto staff good, but it doesnt make the choice of dw totally obvious neither, or you will choose to use it for healing springs, or you will choose to give up healing spring for more burst heal.

You happen to use a staff on your sorc, so you know what you loose... but you also know what you gain

I've never said magicka>stamina? I just said you shouldn't only look it one way and say "yeah stamina is better because they have both good weaving and best wep dmg with dw", stam has many other advantages, magicka has many advantages too its just what I said and if weaving favours stamina build, there are other things that favour magicka build. If magicka and stamina were equal on every point, just make this game having one ressource pool already, there would be exactly as much diversity.
Moreover taking the example of dk to discuss about balance between magicka and stamina is just bs, because there will be one spec better than the other for everyclass (except maybe nb atm). I could take sorc and say the exact same thing. "Yeah ppl find magicka sorc op (I don't, I said ppl) and sorcs find stam weak so magicka>>stamina".
When yo'ure on your raid as magicka sorc, you have deto, best group burst skill ingame atm while stambuilds cant use it, you can use purge, you can use sorc's root, you can use ice WoE (for snare extremly strong in group, try it) you can use rune, you can be offheal by lsotting healing springs if a healer dies etcetc You have plenty of advantages over tornado spammers, while those have others over you (manouever caltrops, ST best spammable aoe etc). Which one is the most usefull for group? I don't know but you aren't useless and some amgicka builds at elast are needed.
Also vigor sint a better heal than healing springs in group lol, it's a good thing to have from stam builds, but you cant spam it (well if you do its useles because it doesnt stack).

Basically it derailed quite a bit but what I was about, is that they shouldnt give staves same sd bonus as dw, maybe change passives so it affects also class skills, but reducing the diversity is never good for a game.

Maulkin · October 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Basically it derailed quite a bit but what I was about, is that they shouldnt give staves same sd bonus as dw, maybe change passives so it affects also class skills, but reducing the diversity is never good for a game.

I think I can agree with that.

Joy_Division · October 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Erondil

This is what you said: "Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol)." - like it a a joke that a sorcerer would even consider using dual wield, especially since the "best" sorcerers use destro. Not a joke. Very real reasons.

The resto staff 15% healing passive only applies if your ally is under 30% health. When is this going to happen? Hardly ever. A restoration staff specialty is heals over time, which is meant to maintain allies high health. Ever the "burst" heal of healing ward provides a small heal, which will take a potential recipient out of the under 30% danger zone, and then applies its burst as the shield coverts to health. You cannot assume that the staff''s 15% will cover most of it's heals. In fact, the vast majoirty of the time it won't.

Even if it did, a Templar is still better off using swords. The example I have there is with sup-optimal gear and absent the buffs I will have from spellpower cure, major sorcery, and other bonuses to spell damage - and not even discounting the templar's own healing passives. My breathe of life's will always hit harder. As will my healing rituals, my purifies, my barriers, etc.

Something else to consider. Ever try healing in PvP? You do so with a resto staff and you will get REKT by enemy raid leaders who target their raids DPS at you because that weapon lacks anything in the defense, utility, or survivability. It's just so much easier for a templar healer to use sword and sheild, still get the extra spellpower bonus and survivability to boot, and just spam breath of life.
This doesn't mean it's not possible to use a resto staff to heal. It means it is unnecessarily difficult as there is little gained from using them aside from the skills thy offer, yet have a lot of accompanying disadvantages

Just because I need healing springs to complete a trial does not mean it is OK for the staff to have terrible passives and marginal stuff tied to heavy attacks and lose all that spellpower. It means I am being punished just to use a single essential skill the group needs. That is not balanced. Tanks need the sword and shield line. Yes they lose the dual wield weapon bonus, but they still received an armor set bonus, actually gain more stats because of the shield enchant (a big one a that). They give something up and get something in return in addition to the needed skills that come with a shield. That is balanced.

None of this is considered when the whole medium weave + crushing shock = dual wield debate comes up. As a healer, it is highly annoying that everything is so DPS centric.

You think magicka is better than stamina? Tell me, why do so many DKs think the magicka DK is in a bad place as of right now ... but stamina DKs are actually pretty good? Don't you think it has something to do with the destruction staff not being very competitive? The champion system bias toward stamina (in particularity the damage mitigation)? That a two-handed's naturally high weapon damage makes Wrecking blow + weave a devastating combination? That is so much easier to stack weapon damage and crit for stamina users. That steel tornado is in every possible way superior to impulse? Better group heals? You take a look at the vigor skill lately (something you can use with 2 swords and not a lousy resto staff)?

No, the discussion between stamina and magicka is very relevant. Maybe if destro users didn't have to tank their magicka in order to use impulse, you might see something besides steel tornado on your death recap when a ball group passes you by. That prox det on your recap? That's coming from two swords.

None of this means a sorcerer can't or shouldn't use a destruction staff. I play a sorcerer and I happen to use one. But it is because I use one, I am very much aware just how much I am losing. When I run in my raid, I am painfully aware that my DPS is lower than the steel tornado spammers. Painfully aware that my skills are losing hundreds of spell damage when I use them. What difference does it make if 90% of my class skills are magicka, when the weapon skills stamina users use do not lose their weapon damage? Painfully aware that it's skills are unreliable because they do not work against shielded opponents, cover a quarter of the distance of steel tornado, have no cost reduction, and have its passives tied to its particular skills as opposed to everything like swords.

If you think I'm hating on staves, it's not because I don't like them. It's because I actually want magicka users to be able to use their skills without compromising their builds or other skills, something stamina users need not worry about.

Yes I did say destro is better imo for sorcs agaisnt decent players and destro sorcs are tougher to fight agaisnt than dw sorcs for me. It's my feelings, but I see the advantages to run a dw build, especially agaisnt ppl not used to this kind of burst.

In PvP resto templar is imo better than s&b templar when you have a group of 16+ and want to use healing springs (though I run with 12-man group usually so yeah on my templar I will use s&b. Both are good, just there is not one better for every situation.. again.
I agree resto passives should be reworked, but zos shouldnt give staves as much sd as dw because it would reduce the diversity, which is always a bad thing imo. The fact that you have to use healing springs or you want to use doesnt make resto staff good, but it doesnt make the choice of dw totally obvious neither, or you will choose to use it for healing springs, or you will choose to give up healing spring for more burst heal.

You happen to use a staff on your sorc, so you know what you loose... but you also know what you gain

I've never said magicka>stamina? I just said you shouldn't only look it one way and say "yeah stamina is better because they have both good weaving and best wep dmg with dw", stam has many other advantages, magicka has many advantages too its just what I said and if weaving favours stamina build, there are other things that favour magicka build. If magicka and stamina were equal on every point, just make this game having one ressource pool already, there would be exactly as much diversity.
Moreover taking the example of dk to discuss about balance between magicka and stamina is just bs, because there will be one spec better than the other for everyclass (except maybe nb atm). I could take sorc and say the exact same thing. "Yeah ppl find magicka sorc op (I don't, I said ppl) and sorcs find stam weak so magicka>>stamina".
When yo'ure on your raid as magicka sorc, you have deto, best group burst skill ingame atm while stambuilds cant use it, you can use purge, you can use sorc's root, you can use ice WoE (for snare extremly strong in group, try it) you can use rune, you can be offheal by lsotting healing springs if a healer dies etcetc You have plenty of advantages over tornado spammers, while those have others over you (manouever caltrops, ST best spammable aoe etc). Which one is the most usefull for group? I don't know but you aren't useless and some amgicka builds at elast are needed.
Also vigor sint a better heal than healing springs in group lol, it's a good thing to have from stam builds, but you cant spam it (well if you do its useles because it doesnt stack).

Basically it derailed quite a bit but what I was about, is that they shouldnt give staves same sd bonus as dw, maybe change passives so it affects also class skills, but reducing the diversity is never good for a game.

Here is the difference between how you see things and how I see them.

In your mind, losing spellpower by equipping a staff is ok because you also get some stuff is return. Lose some, win some. Balance.

In my mind, this is not ok because there are other options in the game that do not have to make that sacrifice. If I am a duel wield NB, my weapon attacks, heals, class skills, weaved attacks - all of it - scale off what I want it to scale off: my maximized weapon power and my stamina pool. They even have the option to use a two-handed sword and still derive high weapon power because of the weapon's naturally high weapon damage.

I don't know why you keep insinuating that somehow just because the weapons magicka users had scaled consistently with stam users, everything would be homogenized and might as well have the same pool. That's totally not what I am saying and just your imagination. Stamina users already have an easier time stacking weapon damage, attaining higher crit rates, derive more benefits from the champion system, and just have better burst skills (from weapons, which is what this is all about). Stamina users would not become obsolete or function differently.

I also find it inconsistent that the restoration staff, a weapon that does nothing but and is specifically designed to heal, does not provides the best raw healing. Since they are not deriving the benefits of the defense, spellpower, and stats that a templar could use from sword + shield, a breath of life from a resto staff user should be greater. I am all for build diversity, but there has to be a degree of consistency. Sword and shield users in this game are just better at tanking because that is what the set is designed to do. Fair enough. That logic should apply to a restoration staff. More so since with the sword and shield line, I can do decent DPS (low slash), and debuffs (reveb bash), and I can even be a great healer (templar) to go along with the specialized defense it grants. Right now, a resto staff healer trades that specialization for a weaker versatility, something that even in your mind only makes them situationally desirable.

And, no, you can't take a stam sorc and sorc and say the exact same thing about DKs. Stam sorc is actually viable (finally) even if the actual class contributes little to its success because it doesn't have to make so many compromises in its build. It can stack weapon damage using the actual weapons it wants to use and scale it's damage, weaves, and heals off that high number.

Maulkin · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

In my mind, this is not ok because there are other options in the game that do not have to make that sacrifice. If I am a duel wield NB, my weapon attacks, heals, class skills, weaved attacks - all of it - scale off what I want it to scale off: my maximized weapon power and my stamina pool. They even have the option to use a two-handed sword and still derive high weapon power because of the weapon's naturally high weapon damage.

Yeah but the point he keeps making and you're passing over is that this is only the case with melee weapons that offer no protection. If you choose bow you lose that weapon extra damage that would give you heals from Vigor for example. But you gain range and ranged light attack weaving.

Going melee with a 2H or DW does leave you very exposed as opposed to using S&B for example. But it does compensate by giving more damage. So as far as destro is concerned, I think it would be more balanced if they had 1 or 2 passives also apply to other attacks. But not offer the full spell damage.

Now on the resto staff particularly, there's another issue altogether as you don't gain anything from light attacks really and and since all templar (and resto) heals scale from spell damage it leaves you short on defence or offence.

I have a suggestion for this that might be a bit controversial. I don't know about Templar heals but Resto heals used to scale only from Max Magicka, not Spell Damage, though this has since been changed. I think if all heals scaled off Max Magicka only then this would not be an issue and you'd get nothing from DW or 2H that buffs your heals. S&B would still be a good option for PvP survivability but then you lose the HoTs and AoE heals of the resto. And Resto would offer better heals thanks to passives (though Restoration Master should also apply to non-resto heals imo).

That would also allow them to add more interesting items for Healing like sets that give more max magicka and extra heals. Kinda like the Necropotence set was for Sorc pet builds. It would also leave you with a dilemma since using drinks maxing spell damage might be good option for damage dealing but definitely not the best for healing. Currently you just plonk as much as you can into spell dmg and everything magicka related gets better.

Joy_Division · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

In my mind, this is not ok because there are other options in the game that do not have to make that sacrifice. If I am a duel wield NB, my weapon attacks, heals, class skills, weaved attacks - all of it - scale off what I want it to scale off: my maximized weapon power and my stamina pool. They even have the option to use a two-handed sword and still derive high weapon power because of the weapon's naturally high weapon damage.

Yeah but the point he keeps making and you're passing over is that this is only the case with melee weapons that offer no protection. If you choose bow you lose that weapon extra damage that would give you heals from Vigor for example. But you gain range and ranged light attack weaving.

Going melee with a 2H or DW does leave you very exposed as opposed to using S&B for example. But it does compensate by giving more damage. So as far as destro is concerned, I think it would be more balanced if they had 1 or 2 passives also apply to other attacks. But not offer the full spell damage.

Now on the resto staff particularly, there's another issue altogether as you don't gain anything from light attacks really and and since all templar (and resto) heals scale from spell damage it leaves you short on defence or offence.

I have a suggestion for this that might be a bit controversial. I don't know about Templar heals but Resto heals used to scale only from Max Magicka, not Spell Damage, though this has since been changed. I think if all heals scaled off Max Magicka only then this would not be an issue and you'd get nothing from DW or 2H that buffs your heals. S&B would still be a good option for PvP survivability but then you lose the HoTs and AoE heals of the resto. And Resto would offer better heals thanks to passives (though Restoration Master should also apply to non-resto heals imo).

That would also allow them to add more interesting items for Healing like sets that give more max magicka and extra heals. Kinda like the Necropotence set was for Sorc pet builds. It would also leave you with a dilemma since using drinks maxing spell damage might be good option for damage dealing but definitely not the best for healing. Currently you just plonk as much as you can into spell dmg and everything magicka related gets better.

It's not like he isn't passing over points that I make.

Why do we equip a bow? Because it should be BiS at range stam based damage.
Why do we equip a sword and shield? Because it should be BiS at tanking.
Why do we equip two swords? Because it should be BiS at melee stam damage.
Why do we equip a resto staff? According to him, it should not be BiS for healing because diversity is good for the game. OK fine, let's be diverse. When I can tank Sanctum Ophedia with a resto staff, then I'll buy that a sword and shield healing should be equal to and just as viable as resto staff healing.

It seems that you recognize something isn't quite right here - which is exactly my point. People get so hung over abstract simplistic concepts like "melee is more dangerous and staffs are range, yeah the dps is close so everything is just fine," that it undermines others things because the game is not so simple. Nor is the game static. None of this matter when 1.6 released because the spell damage loss for using as staff was hardly perceptible. Now, it's very real.

Resto staff heals used to scale off your weapon damage back in the day. This is what made sorcerers actually have an argument they were the best healers since they had critical surge. It did not scale off your magicka because it was weapon based and thus attacks scaled off your stamina (confusing, I know...Templar heals, since they were a class based ability, scaled off spellpower and magicka). So, your proposal would not be going back to how it was.

Your proposal solves the whole blacksmiths are better than restoration specialists inconsistency, but I think it does make for more inconsistencies.

Why do stamina heals get bonuses based off their weapon damage?
Why are damage dealers have more options to make their thing better with spell/weapon power scaling their stuff (and opening the door for more diverse builds) whereas healers are not?
Well, yes, plonking everything into magicka just makes everything better ... but that's how stam works.
Equipping a resto staff does not make you a better healer, it only makes you a more diverse healer, which is not the same thing. Under your system, if I equip a shield, I can have 1100 more magicka than a staff user which will mean my heals are usually stronger than the staff user.
The damage dealer can have the option to use drink and still perform her job at a high level because of the sepllpower option. I value this in cyrodiil highly as a DPS. As a healer, I don't have that option.

I don't think this is too complicated.

If I equip a restoration staff, I should be a better healer than someone who does not. That's it. This does not mean people can't use a sword and shield and be a good healer. On the contrary, I'm all for sword and shield templar and sword wielding NBs healing. Sounds fun! It means that because the sword and shield user and the NB dual sword user derives other benefits independent of healing whereas I derive nothing, I should be a better healer than they are. Not just more diverse. Or sometimes better. (The alternative to solving this inconsistency would be to provide a resto staff user with legitimate offensive or defensive options. I'd take either method.)

Somewhat more controversially, I am also of the opinion that a wizard should by default have their highest magical power honed through a staff. There should be no compromise made to the build by equipping a staff. All of a sudden a sorcerer's crystal fragments spell should not decrease in damage because she used a staff forged by the mighty Shalidor himself instead of skyforged swords made by Eorland Gray-Mane, who doesn't know the first thing about magic.

This does *not* mean a I don't think there should be builds like spellswords and battlemages. By all means, have them: I pretty much played them forever. But the existence of these builds should not mean the traditional mage has to make compromises with their builds. Also wouldn't it make more sense that these fighter-mages use arcane weapons that actually scale off their spellpower because they are skilled practitioners in these weapons? Repalce the useless charged trait with an "arcane" trait that scales the weapons off magicka and, listen to this Eric Wrobel, provides the user with a spellpower bonus if they are in melee range of the target they are attacking.

That way we get our diversity and things make a little more sense: healers actually want to use a healing staff, battle-mages are actually good with the swords they use, etc.

F7sus4 · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

If you ask me, my guess is that it's a side-effect from not really well-thought concept of weapon/spell damage scaling that they now pretend is intentional and try to defend it by applying some quasi-logical explanation to it.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

According to Wrobel, only to allow Templars to do burst-healing with their Class abilities with 2H/DW "at a cost of using Restoration Staff during that time".

Joy_Division wrote: »

And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

If actually does. With no staff you miss weaving, which can be up to 35% of your total DPS output.

PS. Not trying to defend this design. Not only it does not "feel right", but it's simply stupid. All we could do is to adapt to it and take as much advantage as the class/build allows us to.

Ishammael · November 2015

What's interesting is that the manner ALL weapon skills used to scale -- off weapon dmg -- makes more sense now than it did.

Think of how interesting builds would be if that was still the case.

Alucardo · November 2015

Only in ESO would this make sense

Septimus_Magna · November 2015

DW for magicka builds is good if you focus towards single target burst. Your spells hit harder at the cost of sustain and aoe.

Staffs will provide less burst damage but higher damage (with the option for aoe) over a longer period of time.

If you wanna kill sinle targets quick and risk running out resouces > DW
If you wanna kill single/multiple targets without risking running out of resources > Staff

In 1.6 I used a DW/resto setup for small scale pvp and it worked great against some builds, DKs and tanky builds were very hard to kill. You cant burst them down and you lack the sustained damage to kill them.

With the current damage reductions I havent felt comfortable with DW because it too easy for enemies to survive the burst. The destro staff provides more sustained damage, once enemies get close to 20% I just execute them with mages fury.

OtarTheMad · November 2015

To me it is completely backwards that Staves aren't the first choice for magicka users and DW and 2H are... that's wrong to me.

F7sus4 · November 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

You claimed that a Templar was the only class who benefited from dual wield. Two nightblades in this thread said they believed dual wielding was better.

As a Magicka NB, I also do confirm Dual Wield is better in PvP. It allows us to get more burst, which is especially needed with the whole damage reduction stuff. In PvE, however, only staff-weaving makes sustainable DPS rotation any good.

Dracane · November 2015

Dual wield will become much stronger in a few days. They have restored the dual wield passive.
So in addition to 1 additonal set slot and a high base damage, we also get the damage bonus when using swords.

This is sooo much damage

I`m currently using 2 handed swords on my Sorc, because the 5% damage bonus is in fact bigger than the base damage+ turocs pact damage on dual wield.
But when they restore the dual wield passive ^^ this damage.....

Septimus_Magna · November 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Dual wield will become much stronger in a few days. They have restored the dual wield passive.
So in addition to 1 additonal set slot and a high base damage, we also get the damage bonus when using swords.

This is sooo much damage I`m currently using 2 handed swords on my Sorc, because the 5% damage bonus is in fact bigger than the base damage+ turocs pact damage on dual wield.
But when they restore the dual wield passive ^^ this damage.....

For socs DW is great during overload phase but during the normal dmg rotation I dont see it working for pve dps.

For pvp burst builds it fine because you can use Tangling Webs instead of crushing shock.

Dracane · November 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Dual wield will become much stronger in a few days. They have restored the dual wield passive.
So in addition to 1 additonal set slot and a high base damage, we also get the damage bonus when using swords.

This is sooo much damage I`m currently using 2 handed swords on my Sorc, because the 5% damage bonus is in fact bigger than the base damage+ turocs pact damage on dual wield.
But when they restore the dual wield passive ^^ this damage.....

For socs DW is great during overload phase but during the normal dmg rotation I dont see it working for pve dps.

For pvp burst builds it fine because you can use Tangling Webs instead of crushing shock.

I'm running a pet build. I have no space for a self heal or any restoration staff ability.
So carrying one is useless. I'm running destro and 2 handed sword on my 2nd bar. Hands down, 2 handed has the most powerfull weapon passives in the game, even for Magicka.

30% more stam regen when I kill something
10% more damage after I use a heavy attack
And 5% more damage

Dual wield on the other hand offers nothing. None of the passives works for anything else than dual wielding.
Thanks to the 5% passive of 2 handed swords, dual wield is much weaker currently.

Tankqull · November 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

well you are right and wrong here, you can perfectly fine weave a medium destroattack into darkflare as you can into wrecking blow. the problem though is darkflare itself is bugged since ever and has a significantly increased casting time (~2.2sec instead of 1.8 ) if it is used after sth else other then another darkflare this effect can sadly not be animation canceled. and the combination of this and the reduced spell dmg ontop of absolutly no elemental synnergy a templar provide their dps using a destro staff even when weaving is lower than stupidly spamming flare nonstop with a melee weapon equiped.

Septimus_Magna · November 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Dual wield will become much stronger in a few days. They have restored the dual wield passive.
So in addition to 1 additonal set slot and a high base damage, we also get the damage bonus when using swords.

This is sooo much damage I`m currently using 2 handed swords on my Sorc, because the 5% damage bonus is in fact bigger than the base damage+ turocs pact damage on dual wield.
But when they restore the dual wield passive ^^ this damage.....

For socs DW is great during overload phase but during the normal dmg rotation I dont see it working for pve dps.

For pvp burst builds it fine because you can use Tangling Webs instead of crushing shock.

I'm running a pet build. I have no space for a self heal or any restoration staff ability.
So carrying one is useless. I'm running destro and 2 handed sword on my 2nd bar. Hands down, 2 handed has the most powerfull weapon passives in the game, even for Magicka.

30% more stam regen when I kill something
10% more damage after I use a heavy attack
And 5% more damage

Dual wield on the other hand offers nothing. None of the passives works for anything else than dual wielding.
Thanks to the 5% passive of 2 handed swords, dual wield is much weaker currently.

For pve dps? I cant really see how heavy attacks with a 2H and higher stam regen would be beneficial for dps tbh.

For pvp the stam regen passive is great but you would most likely need a resto staff instead of destro staff.

Dracane · November 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Dual wield will become much stronger in a few days. They have restored the dual wield passive.
So in addition to 1 additonal set slot and a high base damage, we also get the damage bonus when using swords.

This is sooo much damage I`m currently using 2 handed swords on my Sorc, because the 5% damage bonus is in fact bigger than the base damage+ turocs pact damage on dual wield.
But when they restore the dual wield passive ^^ this damage.....

For socs DW is great during overload phase but during the normal dmg rotation I dont see it working for pve dps.

For pvp burst builds it fine because you can use Tangling Webs instead of crushing shock.

I'm running a pet build. I have no space for a self heal or any restoration staff ability.
So carrying one is useless. I'm running destro and 2 handed sword on my 2nd bar. Hands down, 2 handed has the most powerfull weapon passives in the game, even for Magicka.

30% more stam regen when I kill something
10% more damage after I use a heavy attack
And 5% more damage

Dual wield on the other hand offers nothing. None of the passives works for anything else than dual wielding.
Thanks to the 5% passive of 2 handed swords, dual wield is much weaker currently.

For pve dps? I cant really see how heavy attacks with a 2H and higher stam regen would be beneficial for dps tbh.

For pvp the stam regen passive is great but you would most likely need a resto staff instead of destro staff.

No they are not.

You absolutely miss the point though. Dual wield is NOT better than 2 handed swords currently. Once your damage value is higher than 4000, which I'm certain it is, then 2 handed sword becomes better and better, even though you don't have the damage from dual wield. My damage value is ~8760 so it's obvious what's better for me.

Just go test it yourself and you'll see it. Only bad players use dual wield currently. Well, bad is the wrong word.- Uninformed is the right word. So now where mother Dracane enlightened you, you can go and make it better

For the next 8 days..... once the update goes online, dual wield will be even stronger than it currently is and 2 handed swords will no longer be better.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

For pvp the stam regen passive is great but you would most likely need a resto staff instead of destro staff.

Hm. Since shieldbreaker exists, there is a big risk now.
I never let my shields down anyway, I have no need for healing ward or a self heal. I play Sorcerer how it's intended to be played (argueable probably) I use my shield to protect myself and only use blood magic and probably surge to heal myself. This works just fine most of the time.

Shieldbreaker obviously destroys this entirely. It's a poor designed set, but that's off topic now.
You will always want to use 2 handed swords currently, at any given time. The passives are great for pvp and the damage is better than dual wield for pve and pvp.