Maelstrom Arena Weapons & Magicka users

GreyRanger
GreyRanger
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Simple question, has there been any discussion of having Two handed weapons and dual wield weapons provide spell damage and weapon damage bonuses (as in Molag Kena) to balance for casters who currently use melee weapons?

I did a bit of looking, could not a find a thread on that topic.
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Dual Wield Weapons: Increased the bonus Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 100%.

    They already do....
    And it doesn't make sense at all. Once again, melee weapons are 10 times better for magic than staves.
    I wish they would finally get rid of this.

    This was regarding the Flurry DoT bonus for the Maelstrom dagger, not weapon and spell damage for DW in general.

    The Maelstrom daggers do not provide additional spell dmg compared to other DW weapons.

    The destro staff provides 189 extra spell dmg so its probably pretty BiS for magicka builds.

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  • Birdovic
    Birdovic
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    olsborg wrote: »
    I still dont like the fact that your crystal fragments will hit someone harder if youre holding a 2h sword vs a lightning staff.

    They should add some spelldmg to staves already and fix destro skill tree(outdated) ._.
    Edited by Birdovic on October 28, 2015 12:35PM
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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    hrothbern wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Dual Wield Weapons: Increased the bonus Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 100%.

    They already do....
    And it doesn't make sense at all. Once again, melee weapons are 10 times better for magic than staves.
    I wish they would finally get rid of this.

    Yes and no...

    to the "no"
    Melee attacks should do substantial more damage than ranged attacks.
    That is for me self evident. Even a potatoe peeling knife becomes nasty at close distance.
    Also: At the moment you attack somebody in melee, in the frontline, you expose yourself to melee attacks AND ranged attacks from adds behind the frontline. So you need more damage mitigation or be very swift as a squishy type (risk).
    Also: melee needs gap closers slotted (expensive).... or, if not slotted, .... they expose themselfes to the natural combat advantage of ranges adds: if 3 ranged players attack three melee players, the three ranged can focus on 1 straight away. So 3 vs 3 is in actuality to a substantial degree 3 vs 1, which happens all the time in scattered skirmishes in PVP. In PVE the same: as melee fighting a mob that includes some archers or casters that make distance to you in opposite directions is awkward.

    To the "yes"
    The increased Spell/Weapon Damage will also be used for ranged attacks from DW (not much...) and class skills. And that is not right!

    So IMO the inbalance is caused by the lack of sufficient discrimination of ranged vs melee attacks in general by ESO, and the application of that principle on Spell/Weapon Damage in particular. This inbalance is already the case in the current structural combat mechanics.

    Whereby noted that IF ESO would solve this in a structural way, they would give staves the same Spell/Weapon Damage as 2 one-hand weapons and tweak the balance ranged vs melee by decreasing the base damage of ranged attacks.
    The consistent symmetry must then also include that a stave or two-handed weapon counts for TWO armor set pcs.


    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
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  • Swindy
    Swindy
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    Dracane wrote: »
    hrothbern wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Dual Wield Weapons: Increased the bonus Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by 100%.

    They already do....
    And it doesn't make sense at all. Once again, melee weapons are 10 times better for magic than staves.
    I wish they would finally get rid of this.

    Yes and no...

    to the "no"
    Melee attacks should do substantial more damage than ranged attacks.
    That is for me self evident. Even a potatoe peeling knife becomes nasty at close distance.
    Also: At the moment you attack somebody in melee, in the frontline, you expose yourself to melee attacks AND ranged attacks from adds behind the frontline. So you need more damage mitigation or be very swift as a squishy type (risk).
    Also: melee needs gap closers slotted (expensive).... or, if not slotted, .... they expose themselfes to the natural combat advantage of ranges adds: if 3 ranged players attack three melee players, the three ranged can focus on 1 straight away. So 3 vs 3 is in actuality to a substantial degree 3 vs 1, which happens all the time in scattered skirmishes in PVP. In PVE the same: as melee fighting a mob that includes some archers or casters that make distance to you in opposite directions is awkward.

    To the "yes"
    The increased Spell/Weapon Damage will also be used for ranged attacks from DW (not much...) and class skills. And that is not right!

    So IMO the inbalance is caused by the lack of sufficient discrimination of ranged vs melee attacks in general by ESO, and the application of that principle on Spell/Weapon Damage in particular. This inbalance is already the case in the current structural combat mechanics.

    Whereby noted that IF ESO would solve this in a structural way, they would give staves the same Spell/Weapon Damage as 2 one-hand weapons and tweak the balance ranged vs melee by decreasing the base damage of ranged attacks.
    The consistent symmetry must then also include that a stave or two-handed weapon counts for TWO armor set pcs.


    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.

    Utterly & absolutely agree.
    Surely the present "bugs" have been obvious so long now that ESO should negate the issue of DW>Staff & 2handed in general not receiving 2 armour piece bonuses in a patch.

    Please?
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  • F7sus4
    F7sus4
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.
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  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Didn't Mr. Wrobel make a remark about casters using melee weapons being clever? Is there a chance of this mechanic actually changing?
    Don't tank

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  • Shinra
    Shinra
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    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    But if you compare dark flare hard casts with crushing shock+medium attack, you will instantly want to equip a destro staff. Also, as soon as you have spell power cure or any other set that procs with heals, you will want Healing staffs for rapid regeneration and spirit siphon/quick siphon.

    Or, if you are healing trials, you will need healing springs.
    Edited by Shinra on October 30, 2015 7:31AM
  • oibam
    oibam
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    You are the first who will cry for big nerf of too much damage from ranged attacks o:)
    Wir kontaktieren dich, um dir mitzuteilen, dass dein folgender Kommentar entfernt wurde:

    L2P


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  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.

    @Joy_Division,

    see my post #7 on this.
    ESO has an inconsistent approach to one-handed blacksmith weapons. If you look at the traits like critical % ESO did it right. The % crit of one-handed is 50% of the value of a two-handed weapon, like the other weapon traits.
    That puts Dual Wield and Stave at the same level as Stave ... and... a S&B tank gets less damage. Or with the trait Defensive less Resist (because the off hand Resist comes from the Shield)

    So that trait approach is right and consistent.
    The bonus approach is wrong, as you say.
    And staves, like any two-handed weapon should count as 2 armor set pcs.

    ESO must, really MUST spend time to lay out the complete LOGIC of her combat system again !!!!
    Get it consistent and symetrical.
    Currently they are running like a beheaded chicken from the one ad hoc tweak to the next.
    And because of the conceptual flaws...and the complaint reactive ZOS approach... it cannot and therefore will not stop.

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  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.
    Edited by Erondil on October 30, 2015 11:52AM
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  • Furor
    Furor
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    Erondil wrote: »
    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps.

    This applies to Nightblade as well


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  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    Furor wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps.

    This applies to Nightblade as well


    For aoe yes. However for single target, except execute phase I think destro is better.
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  • eliisra
    eliisra
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    Furor wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps.

    This applies to Nightblade as well


    Sorc to. You always use DW/Greatsword for Overload + execute bar. Competitive magicka sorcs will also use DW/Greatsword in PvP over Destruction Staff, because Force Pulse isn't bursty enough in PvP.

    Only class that ever seems to run full Destruction Staff is DK, with the passives to heavy attacks and fire dmg.

    I feel the biggest issue is the spell power on the healing staff personally, that's what makes other classes so far behind templars in the healing role. It's what makes a skill like Vigor outperform Healing Springs. Why Rally or Entropy is so much better than Regeneration. This is especially noticeable in PvP with the 50% heal reduction, making any heals NOT requiring a resto staff, much better.

    Anyhow, if we're going to buff spell dmg on staffs, shouldn't the same love apply to bows? Also outperformed by greatsword and DW for PvE dps. Just to bad about PvP I guess lol. That dirty sneak heavy attack/Focused Aim + Silver Shard + Camo Hunter instagibb meta, really doesn't need more buffs or weapon power :cold_sweat:
  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    eliisra wrote: »
    Furor wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps.

    This applies to Nightblade as well


    Sorc to. You always use DW/Greatsword for Overload + execute bar. Competitive magicka sorcs will also use DW/Greatsword in PvP over Destruction Staff, because Force Pulse isn't bursty enough in PvP.

    Only class that ever seems to run full Destruction Staff is DK, with the passives to heavy attacks and fire dmg.

    I feel the biggest issue is the spell power on the healing staff personally, that's what makes other classes so far behind templars in the healing role. It's what makes a skill like Vigor outperform Healing Springs. Why Rally or Entropy is so much better than Regeneration. This is especially noticeable in PvP with the 50% heal reduction, making any heals NOT requiring a resto staff, much better.

    Anyhow, if we're going to buff spell dmg on staffs, shouldn't the same love apply to bows? Also outperformed by greatsword and DW for PvE dps. Just to bad about PvP I guess lol. That dirty sneak heavy attack/Focused Aim + Silver Shard + Camo Hunter instagibb meta, really doesn't need more buffs or weapon power :cold_sweat:

    Yes for execute bar or overload but they still need a destro bar for non-execute phase and since overload isnt up 100% of the time. They don't run full destro if they want to have the best, but they never run full dw. Both are the best in different situations, which means its well balanced no?
    Vigor is nowhere as good as healing springs for a healer, just because it doesnt stack and it's PBAoE. Vigor is better than healing springs for solo play right, but group healer not at all. Same goes for Rally or entropy vs rapid regen, they are meant for different playstyles. Rally is far better for solo whle rapid regen is much more usefull in a group, and the rapid regen of different persons stack so you can have pretty insane hot in your group with this.

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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?



    Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?



    People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

    Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.

    Edited by Joy_Division on October 30, 2015 2:46PM
  • omfgitsbatman
    omfgitsbatman
    ✭✭✭✭
    Shinra wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    But if you compare dark flare hard casts with crushing shock+medium attack, you will instantly want to equip a destro staff. Also, as soon as you have spell power cure or any other set that procs with heals, you will want Healing staffs for rapid regeneration and spirit siphon/quick siphon.

    Or, if you are healing trials, you will need healing springs.

    Hi. Magicka Nightblade here to invalidate most of what you said. I could cast every single one of my spells with swords and do more damage with them. If I look at crushing shock + medium and compare it to funnel health, I immediately see an attack that is way more expensive, a different type of damage than that of all of my class skills, not a noticable dps increase, and without a heal. There is no question which is the better spammable for a nb.
    I use swords on my aoe and execute bar. In no way am I limited to that. Since no matter what weapon I would use on this bar, I wouldn't weave, there is absolutely no reason to ever wear a staff over swords on this bar. The bar includes Impale, Proxy Det, Sap essence, Siphoning attacks, inner light, Soul Harvest.
    I completely agree that melee attacks should do slightly more damage than range. This isn't what is happening. There is nothing preventing you from using ranged attacks with these weapons. The only thing would be sustainability. I as a nb, have no issues with that.
    I have full spell power cure. I can heal almost anything 4 man content without a resto staff while proccing spell power cure all of the time. Funnel health, Refreshing Path, and Sap essence pretty well take care of anything.
    You need healing springs for trials. That's about the only part I agree with.

    He's the healer Tamriel deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hurt his tank. Because he can heal them to full. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful rejuvinator. A Cloaked Healer.

    @Omfgitsbatman PC/NA
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  • Furor
    Furor
    ✭✭✭

    Hi. Magicka Nightblade here to invalidate most of what you said. I could cast every single one of my spells with swords and do more damage with them. If I look at crushing shock + medium and compare it to funnel health, I immediately see an attack that is way more expensive, a different type of damage than that of all of my class skills, not a noticable dps increase, and without a heal. There is no question which is the better spammable for a nb.


    +1 for this. My exact thoughts.
    Furor Darkblade - VR16 Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant
  • Erondil
    Erondil
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?



    Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?



    People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

    Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.
    Look at the cost of webs. Look what spammable aoe sorcs use. You know whats the tooltip damage gain with 2h/dw instead of staff? Roughly 1k dmg. You know whats the damages of medium weave? Roughly 1.5-3k. Dw is better for full dmg burst setup, but in most situations I would use destro all the way on my sorc.
    Utility of destro? A strong ranged immobilize with cold staff (you will laugh because your mind seems a bit closed but I can say frost touch is very strong agaisnt melee builds) a decent knock back with fire touch, eventhough youre right useless agaisnt shield because of a bug. Also a way to have endless ressources with a full dmg build thanks to weakness of elements. Another chance to procc disintegration for sorcs thanks to shock light attack A heavy attack to give back some ressources...
    Already a good amout of advantages, that could worth the loss of spell damages.
    Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol).

    Yes stamina got an advantage with anime cancel compared to magicka users, but magicka users also have a ton of other advantages over them.cba list them because its not at all the subject of the thread and magicka/stamina comparison is endless, but if you cant find one I hope zos will never listen to you about balance.
    Edited by Erondil on October 30, 2015 4:07PM
    ~retired~
    EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?



    Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?



    People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

    Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.
    Look at the cost of webs. Look what spammable aoe sorcs use. You know whats the tooltip damage gain with 2h/dw instead of staff? Roughly 1k dmg. You know whats the damages of medium weave? Roughly 1.5-3k. Dw is better for full dmg burst setup, but in most situations I would use destro all the way on my sorc.
    Utility of destro? A strong ranged immobilize with cold staff (you will laugh because your mind seems a bit closed but I can say frost touch is very strong agaisnt melee builds) a decent knock back with fire touch, eventhough youre right useless agaisnt shield because of a bug. Also a way to have endless ressources with a full dmg build thanks to weakness of elements. Another chance to procc disintegration for sorcs thanks to shock light attack A heavy attack to give back some ressources...
    Already a good amout of advantages, that could worth the loss of spell damages.
    Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol).

    Yes stamina got an advantage with anime cancel compared to magicka users, but magicka users also have a ton of other advantages over them.cba list them because its not at all the subject of the thread and magicka/stamina comparison is endless, but if you cant find one I hope zis will never listen to you about balance.

    You are probably one of those people who think magicka DKs are still OP.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

    Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

    The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

    So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

    And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

    Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

    Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

    The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

    So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

    And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

    Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.

    Is it BiS because it is the *only* magic-based offensive weapon or because it's actually good?

    You are going to tell me this isn't a bad weapon when it's CC doesn't work, it's DoT is lower than my health regeneration, it's AoE has one-fourth the area as steel torando (which also functions as an execute)? It's passives only apply to its mediocre skills unlike swords? It's channeled heavy attack can't even hit dodge rollers anymore? It's best skill was nerfed so it doesn't even proc elemental effects anymore? I disagree. That's bad. Just because you don;t have any other ranged or magical offensive option doesn't make it good.

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with someone who believes that a sorcerer + destro staff is best for their character, I am saying there are other considerations that need to be considered for balance aside from the commonly cited weave + skill attack is roughly equivalent in damage to a skill from dual swords.

    What if I'm not a DPS medium weaving? What if I am a healer?

    Here are my heals from the best Restoration staff in the game, a weapon that provides zero offensive benefit and its sole purpose i is to heal:

    ]staff%20heal_zpsrhzplbrv.jpg

    Here is what I can heal for using blackmsith's steel

    sword%20heal_zps2a6cjqaz.jpg

    Every skill I run on that resto bar, my shards, my jesus beams, my heals, etc that really have nothing to do with weaving attacks are all losing hundreds of spell damage.

    Why is it that a stamina dual wielder can maximize their weapon damage and weave in attacks that scale of their attribute and their Champion points but a magicka user can't do the same thing? Because people want to look cool using swords and not get overshadowed by the weapon mechanically intended for magicka users to employ? Why is it that for magicka users, it is deemed "balanced" that their weapon skills ought to get scaled down with less spell power but not for stam users? These inconsistencies make zero sense to me.




    Edited by Joy_Division on October 30, 2015 4:41PM
  • Erondil
    Erondil
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?



    Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?



    People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

    Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.
    Look at the cost of webs. Look what spammable aoe sorcs use. You know whats the tooltip damage gain with 2h/dw instead of staff? Roughly 1k dmg. You know whats the damages of medium weave? Roughly 1.5-3k. Dw is better for full dmg burst setup, but in most situations I would use destro all the way on my sorc.
    Utility of destro? A strong ranged immobilize with cold staff (you will laugh because your mind seems a bit closed but I can say frost touch is very strong agaisnt melee builds) a decent knock back with fire touch, eventhough youre right useless agaisnt shield because of a bug. Also a way to have endless ressources with a full dmg build thanks to weakness of elements. Another chance to procc disintegration for sorcs thanks to shock light attack A heavy attack to give back some ressources...
    Already a good amout of advantages, that could worth the loss of spell damages.
    Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol).

    Yes stamina got an advantage with anime cancel compared to magicka users, but magicka users also have a ton of other advantages over them.cba list them because its not at all the subject of the thread and magicka/stamina comparison is endless, but if you cant find one I hope zis will never listen to you about balance.

    You are probably one of those people who think magicka DKs are still OP.
    This meant "I have no arguments left and I want to appear smart with something that has nothing to do with the discussion"
    I've never considered dk being op since 1.3 btw, in 1.5 nb was the best all the way imo. Also I am and have always been a magicka nb, I hate playing stamina so I have no personnal interest in defending stam build if you wanna know, just doing so for the sake of balance.



    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

    Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

    The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

    So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

    And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

    Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.

    Inb4 "You're probably one of those people who think magicka DK are still OP"
    Edited by Erondil on October 30, 2015 4:41PM
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  • Erondil
    Erondil
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

    Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

    The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

    So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

    And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

    Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.

    Is it BiS because it is the *only* magic-based offensive weapon or because it's actually good?

    You are going to tell me this isn't a bad weapon when it's CC doesn't work, it's DoT is lower than my health regeneration, it's AoE has one-fourth the area as steel torando (which also functions as an execute)? It's passives only apply to its mediocre skills unlike swords? It's channeled heavy attack can't even hit dodge rollers anymore? It's best skill was nerfed so it doesn't even proc elemental effects anymore? I disagree. That's bad. Just because you don;t have any other ranged or magical offensive option doesn't make it good.

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with someone who believes that a sorcerer + destro staff is best for their character, I am saying there are other considerations that need to be considered for balance aside from the commonly cited weave + skill attack is roughly equivalent in damage to a skill from dual swords.

    What if I'm not a DPS medium weaving? What if I am a healer?

    Here are my heals from the best Restoration staff in the game, a weapon that provides zero offensive benefit and its sole purpose i is to heal:

    ]staff%20heal_zpsrhzplbrv.jpg

    Here is what I can heal for using blackmsith's steel

    sword%20heal_zps2a6cjqaz.jpg

    Every skill I run on that resto bar, my shards, my jesus beams, my heals, etc that really have nothing to do with weaving attacks are all losing hundreds of spell damage.

    Why is it that a stamina dual wielder can maximize their weapon damage and weave in attacks that scale of their attribute and their Champion points but a magicka user can't do the same thing? Because people want to look cool using swords and not get overshadowed by the weapon mechanically intended for magicka users to employ? Why is it that for magicka users, it is deemed "balanced" that their weapon skills ought to get scaled down with less spell power but not for stam users? These inconsistencies make zero sense to me.



    If you had rode my last post you would know why destro staff isn't only a "not bad weapon" but also a good weapon.
    Don't forget all your heals gain 15 or 30% (can't remember sorry) strength on an ally under 30% hp. If you iincrease the hot of your first screenshot by 15%, its more than on your dw screenshot, so your class heals will heal for more allies under 30% on this bar. Also why do you use a resto staff is dw is so much better for healers? because you might use some spells of this tree, because you like the magicka back on heavy attack, and maybe for some others reasons I don't know. But at least you do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying staves are better than dw, I'm not saying that dw is bad, but I am trying to say that both are the best choice for different playstyles or for different situations, at the end there is not really one better than the other overall, the choice comes back to personnal tastes which is imo how the whole game should be. Balanced.
    Stamina build maximize their weaving damages with s&b and bash btw, so yeah they give up wep dmg for it... but you're right already with dw they have already strong weaving+strong weapon damage, it's one of their advantages over magika, magicka have some others... if both magicka and stamina were as strong everywhere then better to do only one ressource pool lol
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    Erondil wrote: »
    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Don't worry. I agree with this of course. All of this

    However speaking of magic, a melee weapon should not make your spells hit harder than a magical staff.
    During one of the ESO Live Episodes, Eric Wrobel said it's fully intentional. TLDR: His reasoning behind this was that by using DW/2H with your Magicka class abilities, you are already giving up some other options you could have with Destruction/Restoration-Staff line. So to cover the loss, they decided to leave Spell Damage bonus to buff those spells you might be using.

    Please also note, you don't want to use DW/2H for your main (single target) bar due to lack of ranged weaving, but on your AoE/execute/off-bar.

    Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    Why aren't stamina users punished for using their intended weapons? Why do I have to lose 700 spellpower to actually heal my group with a resto staff?

    And in many cases it is better to just dual wield swords because with so much spellpower out there and bonuses from stuff like Kena and spell power cure, you are losing so much spelldamage that weaving in light attacks won't make up for it.

    The only stamina ranged weapon is bow. And bow offers as much weapon damage as staves offer spell damage. Are you "punished" for using staves? No lol, destro staff has a lot of advantages particulary for sorcs a spammable abilitie almost essential. On my sorc I would never go without a destro staff as main dps bar (in both pve and pvp) after 1.6 changes while on my nb since I play him magicka melee dps in pvp, I prefer dual wield. I think the current system is quite fair and creates more diversity than if magicka users were restricted to s&b or staves in pvp as they used to.

    No.

    In ESO, I range attack with my swords. Dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - dark flare - Jesus beam, all from 28 meters away. Eric Wrobel has not thought this through.

    I most certainly am punished for using a staff:

    With swords:
    darkflaresword_zpsnoncr2bt.jpg

    With staff:
    darkflarestaff_zpsdslwjq2b.jpg

    This spell empowers itself, any light attack you weave is a dps loss.

    I can heal my group with this much spellpower using a sword:

    dual%20swords_zpsdh2y6zpn.jpg

    Or this much using a restoration staff:

    staff_zpsdosddlnd.jpg

    ESO is the only fantasy game ever magical healers are better off using the steel blacksmith weapons as oppesed to a magical staff specifically designed to heal.

    That goes beyond being not fair. That's just dumb.


    Templar is the only class for who dw/2h is better than staves in PvE magicka dps. Why? just because all templar's dps spells are channeled/cast so there is not much benefit from destro medium attack weaving, and templar got some classes spammable spells (contrary to sorc). Now look at every other class, they use a destro staff in pve dd, sorc for crushing shock, dk and nb for the medium attack weaving.
    In PvP why is there so many destro users, if as you seem to think dw is better all the way? don't tell me for rp please, it's just that it gives good spammable spells for both monotarget and aoe, good utility and a strong weaving compared to magicka dw (and in PvP channeled/cast are more dangerous to use). This means both dw/2h and destro staff are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenient.
    For heal templar dual wield is very good for the spell damage bonus, but resto offers strongs aoe heals, buffs and hot, 15% better heals on an ally under 30% hp and the possibility to regen magicka with heavy attack. From my experience 99% of PvE healers have at least one bar with a resto staff. This means both dw/2h and resto are quite balanced, with their advantages and inconvenients.

    Giving staves the same spell damages as dw would reduce the amount of viable build and reduce the diversity of cyrodiil because every single magicka user would use or staff or s&b. There is no point to do that when dw/2h is as good as staves. Its imo one of the rare aspect that is well balanced in this game, no need to destroy it.

    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon or that those who dual wield are RPing. LOL. Exactly what "good utility" is the destro staff offering? Do you mean to make me laugh while you try to melt me?



    Or how about the utility of wasting your mana on skills that don't work?



    People really got to stop with the "OMG I can medium weave spam" because to get those medium weaves in, the actually attacks you want to use are losing hundreds and hundreds of spell damage. Your light attack from a lighting staff wont kill me, a crystal frag from a high spellpower build will

    Answer me this, those who love to weave, why does a NB who also weaves are not punished with a loss hundreds of weapon power for their surprise attacks? That's not balanced, it's a joke.
    Look at the cost of webs. Look what spammable aoe sorcs use. You know whats the tooltip damage gain with 2h/dw instead of staff? Roughly 1k dmg. You know whats the damages of medium weave? Roughly 1.5-3k. Dw is better for full dmg burst setup, but in most situations I would use destro all the way on my sorc.
    Utility of destro? A strong ranged immobilize with cold staff (you will laugh because your mind seems a bit closed but I can say frost touch is very strong agaisnt melee builds) a decent knock back with fire touch, eventhough youre right useless agaisnt shield because of a bug. Also a way to have endless ressources with a full dmg build thanks to weakness of elements. Another chance to procc disintegration for sorcs thanks to shock light attack A heavy attack to give back some ressources...
    Already a good amout of advantages, that could worth the loss of spell damages.
    Again best sorcerers I know all use destro, and I have much more troubles agaisnt them than agaisnt a dw sorc (dw sorc burst is so easy to see and counter lol).

    Yes stamina got an advantage with anime cancel compared to magicka users, but magicka users also have a ton of other advantages over them.cba list them because its not at all the subject of the thread and magicka/stamina comparison is endless, but if you cant find one I hope zis will never listen to you about balance.

    You are probably one of those people who think magicka DKs are still OP.
    This meant "I have no arguments left and I want to appear smart with something that has nothing to do with the discussion"
    I've never considered dk being op since 1.3 btw, in 1.5 nb was the best all the way imo. Also I am and have always been a magicka nb, I hate playing stamina so I have no personnal interest in defending stam build if you wanna know, just doing so for the sake of balance.



    No dude.

    The first dual wielders who appeared in cyrodiil (the day 1.6 came out) were sorcs. You don't need crushing shock, just using entangling webs from the undaunted tree: it does the same damage, snares, and has a fear synergy that does 6K damage.

    Just because there are some people in Cyrodiil who use a destro staff doesnt mean it's a good weapon

    Having played a both DW Sorc and DW NB, I disagree.

    The main advantage of Destro is light attack weaving. That's another 1k-1.5k damage on every Force Shock that Entangling Webs doesn't have. On top of that it's 25% cheaper (1.5k cost compared to 2k cost).

    So you do more damage at cheaper cost and also you have better ult generation because you constantly weave. Then you also have enchants proccing as a result of light attacks. And adding weave to your spammable attacks (Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul) allows you to double the number of attacks you do and drain the stamina of perma-block builds at double the speed.

    And don't forget for Sorcs the only spammable AoE they have is Impulse. Streak and Proxy are not spammable in any way. Finally, a very nice thing to do is...when you get a Frag proc you can charge a full heavy and fire the insta-frag at the end. They land together and the burst can be well over 20k with lucky crits.

    Destro is far far from a bad weapon. It's just that some of the skills need a bit of a buff, like WoE. I personally believe Destro to be BiS for Sorc.

    Inb4 "You're probably one of those people who think magicka DK are still OP"

    You don't seem interested in an actual discussion.'

    You claimed that a Templar was the only class who benefited from dual wield. Two nightblades in this thread said they believed dual wielding was better.

    I showed video proof of how destructive touch *doesn't work*. You are telling me this very skill is strong. No it's not. It is unreliable because you can't count on it it work.

    You just say stuff like "dual wield easy to coutner lol" and insinutate the duel wielding is done for rp. Like it's not even possible. One of the best sorcs before he quit:



    You never bothered addressing the whole issue of healing with swords being better than a restoration staff. Those restoration staff passives will not exceed the amount offered by spellpower (plus the tempalr's own healing passives). Or why non-templar healers who use a restoration staff are stuck losing hundreds of spell damage to their utility spells. I am stuck using a restoration staff to heal in PvE not because it is balanced, but because I need the healing springs spell from it to do a trial.

    You just passed over the whole issue of stamina users not having to sacrifice their weapon damage and gaining the benefit of weaving that scales with their main attribute and with their champion points. You just say magicka "a ton of other advantages"? Like what? Like a passive that returns a small amount of resources if an enemy dies to a specific destruction skill when stamina users have a passive that is a cost reduction to the entire skill line? What are these tons of advantages that make it so magicka users losing hundreds of spellpower is balanced with stamina users?



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