Making Maelstrom Arena fun for everyone.

Soleya · October 2015

Balancing a game to cater to a large number of people is really hard to do. I wanted to make a suggestion on what I think would help Maelstrom Arena cater to the majority of players and make the most people happy.

Pre patch I was unable to beat the arena (Normal mode) on my V16 Nightblade (V14 gear) or my V12 Sorc (decent V12 gear). After the fix to damage mitigation, I beat it using a V16 Template Sorc and a Templar, haven't tried Nightblade yet, plan to do that this weekend.

I have not been able to beat the first boss on Veteran with V16 Nightblade (pre patch) or V16 Sorc (post patch). I don't consider myself to be a top notch player, but based on the comments and the very few people who are on the leaderboards, it seems the Vet mode is overly hard.

Here's what I think could make the arena more accessible to the majority of players but still be challenging to the best players.

Since I don't have access to my real characters it's hard to tell if Normal mode is good as it is, or if it was only completable because I had access to the best V16 gear. This should either stay the same or be made slightly easier.

Veteran mode, should be about 30-50% between what Normal and vet are now. With another mode, "Hard Mode" at the level Vet is now. Two sets of leaderboards, one for vet and one for Hard. Hard could be activated at the start similar to how Trials have a hard mode by activating some object/button/lever/etc.

This would allow more average players the ability to beat veteran and get decent gear. This would also allow the best players the really hard challenge they would enjoy, and show off on the leaderboards.

The thing I like most about ESO is being able to play with my wife. It would also be great if there was a dual mode where you could play with one other person through vet or hard, with it's own set of leaderboards. Personally I don't care about leaderboards, it would just be nice to be able to track your own score and see if you can do better.

I think these would cater to the largest number of players and give something to them all.

While I'm on the topic of the arena, one problem I've been having is if you die during a round and re-spawn you don't have enough time to switch out any skills to try something different. It would be nice if after re-spawning if you had to move to a circle in the arena to start. This would give you a chance to try a different strategy if something wasn't working.

Just my thoughts on how to make the arena more fun for everyone.

andy_s · October 2015

I don't know why ZOS don't make 3 difficulty levels: normal, veteran, hardcore. Normal is for storyline, veteran for gear and some challenge, hardcore is a harder version of the current veteran mode rewarded with some unique items (e.g. a mount).

Currently normal is too easy, and veteran is too hard long if I have 2 free hours.

Maybe the optimal solution is to make buffs on each arena a little stronger, but penalty higher. Currently if you want a good score, then you need to be fast and use damage buffs.

Dagoth_Rac · October 2015

andy.s wrote: »

I don't know why ZOS don't make 3 difficulty levels: normal, veteran, hardcore. Normal is for storyline, veteran for gear and some challenge, hardcore is a harder version of the current veteran mode rewarded with some unique items (e.g. a mount).

Currently normal is too easy, and veteran is too hard long if I have 2 free hours.

Maybe the optimal solution is to make buffs on each arena a little stronger, but penalty higher. Currently if you want a good score, then you need to be fast and use damage buffs.

ZOS, if the guy with the world first Sanctum Hard Mode clear feels Veteran Maelstrom is too hard/long, what are the 99.9% of players who are not that good going to think? Maelstrom is it for endgame solo content. If Normal is boring for a huge swath of your players and Veteran too hard, there is really no where else for solo players to go.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

My question is to ask why a solo-arena was made when most of the issues that are had with Maelstrom could have been avoided if the arena was another 4-person.

Morimizo · October 2015

I always agree with difficulty instances; there is just no way to appeal to every player in this regard, and it's one of the main reasons why folks either like or despise a game.

I also approve of the approach where incrementally better gear is earned as a player succeeds with each difficulty instance; that way even average players will have a better chance to complete the hardest setting.

ZOS should know better about making the forced solo content overly hard; The Doshia fight worked out REAL well, right? Instead of just ultimately nerfing the arena into the ground, please listen to the OP's suggestion!

ItsRejectz · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

My question is to ask why a solo-arena was made when most of the issues that are had with Maelstrom could have been avoided if the arena was another 4-person.

Because a massive part of the player base has been asking for solo content

Defilted · October 2015

Can we please just keep something that is difficult. Why does everything have to be easy mode?? That what normal is for.

Scyantific · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

My question is to ask why a solo-arena was made when most of the issues that are had with Maelstrom could have been avoided if the arena was another 4-person.

Because 90% of the playerbase hates "forced" group content.

Gyudan · October 2015

Is this another QQ thread about difficulty?
L2P maybe?

Soleya · October 2015

Defilted wrote: »

Can we please just keep something that is difficult. Why does everything have to be easy mode?? That what normal is for.

You don't get Maelstrom weapons from normal mode. I suggested 3 difficulty modes to cater to a larger amount of players.

Gyudan wrote: »

Is this another QQ thread about difficulty?
L2P maybe?

I"m guessing you didn't read my post. I clearly stated there should be a hard mode as well. I never once suggested nerfing the arena.

Not everything is a L2P issue. Some people actually aren't able to do hard content due to physical disabilities in the real world.

Farorin · October 2015

This would be a cool idea, only if the hard more also had a higher chance of reward than the normal vet mode.

cschwingeb14_ESO · October 2015

I think that this could be solved with larger/longer arena buffs, and steeper penalties to the leaderboard for using those buffs

People not going for score would have an easier time through it by just grabbing all 4 buffs. How easy that should be could be argued forever.

One important thing is that vet arena needs to save your progress just like non vet. 2 hour runs are going to be the norm, and many people don't want to/can't dedicate that time. But spend 1/2 an hour and getting past a couple rounsd is far more doable.

Again, score can be significantly lowered by not doing the marathon session, just like if you use a lot of buffs

Dymence · October 2015

andy.s wrote: »

I don't know why ZOS don't make 3 difficulty levels: normal, veteran, hardcore. Normal is for storyline, veteran for gear and some challenge, hardcore is a harder version of the current veteran mode rewarded with some unique items (e.g. a mount).

What's the point of this?

The difference between normal and hardcore in your suggestion is the same as the difference between normal and veteran currently. Even if you add another hardcore mode, the general population will always feel entitled to be able to complete very single mode.

andy_s · October 2015

Dymence wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

I don't know why ZOS don't make 3 difficulty levels: normal, veteran, hardcore. Normal is for storyline, veteran for gear and some challenge, hardcore is a harder version of the current veteran mode rewarded with some unique items (e.g. a mount).

What's the point of this?

The difference between normal and hardcore in your suggestion is the same as the difference between normal and veteran currently. Even if you add another hardcore mode, the general population will always feel entitled to be able to complete very single mode.

Well, a similar system works well in WoW. But since I doubt ESO will ever go this way, I think increase power/duration and score penalty of buffs is an easier solution. Want a fast run for gear? Use a damage buff and feel like an overload sorc, but don't expect a high score

Wollust · October 2015

I agree with above post. The problem isn't the difference of Normal and Veteran. The problem lies in the hands of the many players who think because they bought the games they should be entitled to be able to do everything, no matter what.
I haven't tried the vet yet, I heard it is really hard, which is why I'm looking forward to it. I do not care if I have to spend weeks till I get through, I want that challenge. But to be honest, I think it will be dumbed down. That's how much trust I have left in ZoS, a company that created this game with its huge potential, and then went off and started destroying it step by step.
Guess what, if there is a third, a hardcore mode, people will start complaining about how hardcore it is and how most of the players can't complete it (which would be the idea behind it). And guess further, ZoS will then start to cater to those, because ZoS is the most shortsighted company I have yet to see. An MMOs reputation does not come only from being attractive and all doable to and by casual players. Its reputation creates itself mostly through the hardcore player base. And a game like this won't survive in the long term the indifference of the hardcore player base towards it.

SleepyTroll · October 2015

Normal arena= casual veteran=hardcore players.

Dagoth_Rac · October 2015

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Normal arena= casual veteran=hardcore players.

But that does not seem to be the way it is playing. All the feedback from PTS seems to indicate Normal is for the bottom 10% of players, Veteran is for the top 10% of players, and the other 80% of players are out of luck. Too good for Normal, not good enough for Veteran.

The player base does not cleanly fall into this binary, black-and-white view of play styles. There seems to be this belief that everybody is either:

1). A casual player in mismatched green vendor trash spamming bow attacks while wearing heavy armor and putting all points into magicka.

or

2). A min/maxed player with 501 Champion Points in all best-in-slot VR16 legendary gear on 8 different VR16 characters of every class/race combo you can think of so they can jump on latest meta and FoTM build.

But the truth is a lot messier. Players run the whole gamut from awful, to bad, to OK, to good, to great, to elite. And the current Maelstrom Arena sounds like it is balanced around the two stereotypes I listed that actually make up a small portion of the players.

Normal needs to be a little harder and provide blue VR15 versions of the gear. Veteran needs to be a little easier and provide purple VR16 versions of the gear. The high end challenge for the top players should be leaderboard scores and getting gold VR16 jewelry mailed to them as weekly reward.

That gives something for everybody to aim for. But having content that anybody can finish on one setting and hardly anybody can finish on the only other setting is bad design. It leaves too many players out in the cold.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Normal, again, proves to be a snooze fest

Rayste · October 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Normal arena= casual veteran=hardcore players.

But that does not seem to be the way it is playing. All the feedback from PTS seems to indicate Normal is for the bottom 10% of players, Veteran is for the top 10% of players, and the other 80% of players are out of luck. Too good for Normal, not good enough for Veteran.

The player base does not cleanly fall into this binary, black-and-white view of play styles. There seems to be this belief that everybody is either:

1). A casual player in mismatched green vendor trash spamming bow attacks while wearing heavy armor and putting all points into magicka.

or

2). A min/maxed player with 501 Champion Points in all best-in-slot VR16 legendary gear on 8 different VR16 characters of every class/race combo you can think of so they can jump on latest meta and FoTM build.

But the truth is a lot messier. Players run the whole gamut from awful, to bad, to OK, to good, to great, to elite. And the current Maelstrom Arena sounds like it is balanced around the two stereotypes I listed that actually make up a small portion of the players.

Normal needs to be a little harder and provide blue VR15 versions of the gear. Veteran needs to be a little easier and provide purple VR16 versions of the gear. The high end challenge for the top players should be leaderboard scores and getting gold VR16 jewelry mailed to them as weekly reward.

That gives something for everybody to aim for. But having content that anybody can finish on one setting and hardly anybody can finish on the only other setting is bad design. It leaves too many players out in the cold.

This is well said. IMHO I agree that this would be the answer.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

"You can do normal mode and get better with that experience"

Only assuming people can actually get better when they are presented something of zero challenge to get better with.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Normal needs to be a little harder and provide blue VR15 versions of the gear. Veteran needs to be a little easier and provide purple VR16 versions of the gear. The high end challenge for the top players should be leaderboard scores and getting gold VR16 jewelry mailed to them as weekly reward.

This

The top players, who are never satisfied with the difficulty of the game and need it to be harder for their enjoyment, need to understand that the lowest common denominator of completion is time and learn to enjoy beating others or their own times rather than calling for enemies to hit harder and have more health.

Aletheion · October 2015

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Normal needs to be a little harder and provide blue VR15 versions of the gear. Veteran needs to be a little easier and provide purple VR16 versions of the gear.

For the record, normal mode is all blue VR15 versions of the named gear (several pieces per run) and vet is purple VR16 versions. Upon completing normal you get a random VR16 blue drop of the named gear - armor or jewelry (I'm not sure if the Maelstrom weapon can drop from normal or not, but I haven't seen anything saying it wont).

-Aletheion

Keepercraft · October 2015

Fun for everyone? That is worst idea ever.....

Soleya · October 2015

Aletheion wrote: »

I'm not sure if the Maelstrom weapon can drop from normal or not, but I haven't seen anything saying it wont).

I asked in the last ESO live stream and was told Maelstrom weapons only drop in Vet.

Leifnier · October 2015

Normal for casual play, veteran for more hardcore play. If someone is good enough for normal but not good enough for veteran they can either A:put in the effort to get better for veteran or B: Accept it and move on.

Buying the game does not entitle people to beat all of it's content. That's just a stupid concept.

Xjcon · October 2015

Wait for it........WAIT FOR IT........

The new thread trend will soon be about how crap the drop rate is on the Maelstrom weapons.

While I'm sure I will be able to complete the new Arena on Vet, I think the concept of a hard mode is exactly what this place needs. Players who want top spots would complete it on hardmode. They would have the bragging rights and better chances for drops.

It's kind of funny how easy ZOS could please their customers by giving the entire player base a better chance.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Don't forget bad traits.

How about that? Do vet mode, get a guaranteed good trait item.

Zinaroth · October 2015

What would the incentive be to completing "hard mode" other than leaderboards competition?
There would have to be some other incentive.
And I bet if that incentive was achievements or gear then people would want that nerfed aswell because they couldn't beat it.
And this threadmill would start all over.

Veteran is not for your average player, especially not new veteran content.

There's supposed to be content in MMOs which maybe only 2-5% of the player base ever beat.
This inspires people to do better and it's healthy for the game.

Normal mode is there if you want to experience the content.

Dymence · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You can do normal mode and get better with that experience"

Only assuming people can actually get better when they are presented something of zero challenge to get better with.

You can learn the mechanics of each stage in normal mode. The only thing that varies in vet is the amount of damage you take and the amount of health the mobs have.

eliisra · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You can do normal mode and get better with that experience"

Only assuming people can actually get better when they are presented something of zero challenge to get better with.

That's a good point. Normal is always to easy in ESO. You never really learn anything about the veteran version or how to improve as a player. There's no learning curve. Even if mechanics are similar or the same, you wont notice, because so low dmg or boss already dead.

I haven't tried Maelstrom Arena tho, so no clue about the difficulty. But if exceptional players have completed it on veteran already with crap templates(while still in beta), I'm sure less exceptional can complete it when live. Really not to worried about being unable to beat it. You can always do it the easy way, read a player guide and copy lol.

My only fear is that the instance will take an entire evening, while it needs to be "on farm" if you want anything besides well-fitted. Like with old vDSA before the nerfs, I could only run it once or twice on weekends because took 3 hours. Not enough spare time on weekdays.

Soleya · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

"You can do normal mode and get better with that experience"

Only assuming people can actually get better when they are presented something of zero challenge to get better with.

Based on the drastic difficulty difference, things that work in Normal mode do not work well for Vet. It's not a good learning experience.

I've now beaten normal on Templar, Sorc and NB. But I can't even beat the first level of Vet. My experience from Normal isn't helping me figure out why I can't beat the boss on vet, other than I'm hit by a bunch of adds at all once which pretty much one shots me.