paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

"Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB." perhaps not, but letting your teammates die because their AoE's caused agro means you also didn't care to try and pick the agro back up or CC the enemies, which would make you not a tank. Keeping agro on large enemies and bosses is the main purpose of a tank, failing that or refusing to do so makes you, again, not a tank, just a selfish dps with a sword and board.

It's not selfish. It's an alternative to the utter borefest of RMB mastery. The guy said he hates meatshield tanking, I've offered him a viable solution - it's selfish of you and other dude to just *** on it with your WOW experience before you even investigate or give it a whirl.

First I just like to say that I think its hilarious that in every fantasy MMO I have played to date calling people WoW players or to tell them to go back to WoW is always a common insult. I have never played it so I couldn't care less about what you perceive as "WoW experience". And secondly, nowhere in your last comment did you respond to the fact that you admitted to letting your teammates die from not taunting, which again, would mean you are not a tank. Being able to soak up dmg is not the only thing tanks do, interrupting special attacks, CC'ing and agroing stuff away from the squishy healers and dps is however what makes you a tank or not. Now there are multiple ways to do that, sadly with the stamina regen nerf those options are now a lot fewer than they were. But not doing all that and calling yourself a tank is not helpful.

Let me post a simple graphic for you to understand what the word "tank" means.



Anywhere in front of the tank is generally a place you do not want to be, and often times where you will find most dead DPSers.

all they needed to do was tweak/tune block reduction and dodge reduction within the champion system.

tanking USED to be comprised of two systems block/dodge, and mashing 1-5 and an ultimate on occasion depending on your build. the problem now, is that you really only need to worry about mashing 1-5 and using your ultimate as a tri-pot if you are a DK. thats the beef... its been watered down to the standard MMO tank- hold aggro, absorb damage, and occasionally block/dodge.

blocking and dodging is what i enjoyed about tanking, it really made you have to make quick decisions on what to do. its much more mindless now...

Anyone tried the "Guard" ability from the Support skill line? I havent dare to check it so far, as it seems to cost a ton of stamina draining it constantly, however the idea behind it sounds lovely for a different tank role in PvP.
Offering protection to your teammates intercepting projectiles, or whatever. Though with the infernal stamina costs I am yet to see any tanks trying this route.

If we had more skills like this, affordable, that would give team mates some passive protection or active ones, dunno, like when moving over your friend with a shield up, the enemy blow could only land on your shield, I'd be happy with the tanky role in PvP, and would give us tanks some glory.

Winterpsy wrote: »

Anyone tried the "Guard" ability from the Support skill line? I havent dare to check it so far, as it seems to cost a ton of stamina draining it constantly, however the idea behind it sounds lovely for a different tank role in PvP.
Offering protection to your teammates intercepting projectiles, or whatever. Though with the infernal stamina costs I am yet to see any tanks trying this route.

If we had more skills like this, affordable, that would give team mates some passive protection or active ones, dunno, like when moving over your friend with a shield up, the enemy blow could only land on your shield, I'd be happy with the tanky role in PvP, and would give us tanks some glory.

no but i did get vigor, and its pretty good for my S&B PVE set up. i replaced absorb magic with it. a lot more fitting for my line up. i haven't been able to test it extensively with my PVP S&B set up, but it seemed a bit better there too. ill get to more serious tests some other time... probably after orsinium drops.

guard looks to costs too much for it to be particularly valuable unless you are a magicka tank, and even there it may not be worth it.

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

"Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB." perhaps not, but letting your teammates die because their AoE's caused agro means you also didn't care to try and pick the agro back up or CC the enemies, which would make you not a tank. Keeping agro on large enemies and bosses is the main purpose of a tank, failing that or refusing to do so makes you, again, not a tank, just a selfish dps with a sword and board.

It's not selfish. It's an alternative to the utter borefest of RMB mastery. The guy said he hates meatshield tanking, I've offered him a viable solution - it's selfish of you and other dude to just *** on it with your WOW experience before you even investigate or give it a whirl.

First I just like to say that I think its hilarious that in every fantasy MMO I have played to date calling people WoW players or to tell them to go back to WoW is always a common insult. I have never played it so I couldn't care less about what you perceive as "WoW experience". And secondly, nowhere in your last comment did you respond to the fact that you admitted to letting your teammates die from not taunting, which again, would mean you are not a tank. Being able to soak up dmg is not the only thing tanks do, interrupting special attacks, CC'ing and agroing stuff away from the squishy healers and dps is however what makes you a tank or not. Now there are multiple ways to do that, sadly with the stamina regen nerf those options are now a lot fewer than they were. But not doing all that and calling yourself a tank is not helpful.

Let me post a simple graphic for you to understand what the word "tank" means.



Anywhere in front of the tank is generally a place you do not want to be, and often times where you will find most dead DPSers.

First, I like how you seem to think that words can only have one meaning. The meaning of a word can change depending on the context of which it is used. Tank is a nickname of the 3rd part of the so called holy trinity of fantasy mmo's, the different parts referring to each of the specific role that exists in group based content. Of course there are hybrids but if one is to be a good hybrid one would need to successfully accomplish the tasks that each roles is required to do not just one of the roles one claims to do.

Secondly, I still think its funny how you have yet to actually talk about the fact that you admitted to letting people in your group die because you were more focused on doing damage to the enemies, something that is meant for another part of said trinity. The DPS or DD, the roles which very name is the concept of dealing damage.

Address what now? The fact that I don't want to play babysitter so the DPS can stare at his FTC stat bar the whole fight? I don't personally care to wipe the ass of anyone who wants to solo-play in a dungeon. Fortunately for me, the role isn't called babysitter - it's called tank. A competent DPS on my team won't die because a competent DPS on my team knows where his safe area is from which he can employ his damage. I will break my back for anyone doing their job and maintaining the presence of how to best employ their role. I won't bat an eye for a DPS chasing numbers by pushing ahead of the tank and ruining my ability to maintain the tempo and location of the battle.

OH please enlighten us with your knowledge of what is and what is not a "safe area" for dps to do their job from, cause I'm pretty sure for melee dps for example is right in the thick of it and in large groups of trash the same can be said for magicka staff users. While I can agree with you that dps that run ahead of their tank deserves whatever comes their way I also know that a lot of people of all roles like to take their sweet time handling loot after every encounter making it look like whoever did not do that is simply rushing ahead, while in reality they just didn't notice that the rest of the team is just slow as F. And while standing in giant red circles of doom is bad for any player that was not what was being spoken about, AoE's is something you can't taunt away and the bosses are nine times out of ten not interruptible but the big trash that can be and everything with very few exceptions can be taunted. And while sure you are not a babysitter, it is however your job in synergy with the healer to keep the team alive, you can take more dmg than the dps, they don't build to take dmg they build to do it. While even just a little bit into survivability will go a long way taking away even the slightest from dps will drop their overall dmg quite significantly, that is why the healers and the tanks are so important in fights with lots of hard hitting mobs. vWGT and vICP for example is very unforgiving, even the smaller mobs can dish out lots of pain.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Address what now? The fact that I don't want to play babysitter so the DPS can stare at his FTC stat bar the whole fight? I don't personally care to wipe the ass of anyone who wants to solo-play in a dungeon. Fortunately for me, the role isn't called babysitter - it's called tank. A competent DPS on my team won't die because a competent DPS on my team knows where his safe area is from which he can employ his damage. I will break my back for anyone doing their job and maintaining the presence of how to best employ their role. I won't bat an eye for a DPS chasing numbers by pushing ahead of the tank and ruining my ability to maintain the tempo and location of the battle.

Preach it; no sympathy for the 16k HP DPS spinning around the perimeter like a leather ballerina, rounding up mobs out of turn and freaking out when they maintain aggro for a hot second. Maybe fight all the trash in my caltrops first?

For some reason, a lot of people have this idealized dungeon in their head where they don't have to think, pay attention to their surroundings, or synchronize with the other players in their group. They want to stand there, do one thing, and not have anything bad happen to them. That's not even fighting; that's just pushing buttons. No respect for people who prioritize their attention on floating numbers instead of the red circles on the ground.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Well, if they can do extra things, and do them while maintaining their primary role, then I don't see why they shouldn't at least try and see how doing extra things works.

There is no way around the fact that sometimes DPS die and it is their own fault.

vWGT (check)
first boss (check)
aggro free ability (check)
dead DPS (check)

paulsimonps wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Well, if they can do extra things, and do them while maintaining their primary role, then I don't see why they shouldn't at least try and see how doing extra things works.

I got no problem with people doing extra stuff as much as they can, what bugs me is the fact that so many expect or demand it.

Do you mean that there are many tanks who expect and demand it from themselves?

Personofsecrets wrote: »

One thing to consider is that with the IC PVE/PVP zone, people are desiring to have the same build that works in both PVE and PVP.

I think that @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @zos_ericwrobel's comments on gear and skills being cosmopolitan has sort of backfired. They say how one vision for the game is for players to be able to go back and forth from PVE to PVP and be just as effective with the same gear.

I don't think that this works for tanks when going from PVE to PVP and to still be part of the developers vision, tanks found something that they could use in PVP and try to adapt it to PVE.

I don't mean to explain away what is occurring, but just frame things as I see them. I get how being multi-role can be frustrating. It would be nice if people would preface their posts with their primary way of playing (pve or pvp) so that we could gauge their actions from that point.

I use roughly an identical build, swapping maybe 1-2 skills out.

In PVP as a Templar Tank I usually use the following:

Pierce Armor - Toppling Charge - Heroic Slash - Radiant Aura - Purifying light - Dawnbreaker. I've got 2.1k weapon damage with S&B to ensure that I don't hit like a wet noodle, with 36k buffed HP, 20k stam and a healthy 16k Magicka. 2300 health regen. 1.2k stam and 800 magicka regen means I'm deceptively hard to kill in an attrition fight and I have enough pew pew to get the respect of my ganker.

In PVE my rotation will always have Pierce Armor and Radiant, the other 3 skills and ulti are interchangeable depending on what the team needs.

Gear remains the same: 5PC Ashen's, 2PC Engine Guardian, 3PC Endurance, 2PC Agility.

kupacmac wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Address what now? The fact that I don't want to play babysitter so the DPS can stare at his FTC stat bar the whole fight? I don't personally care to wipe the ass of anyone who wants to solo-play in a dungeon. Fortunately for me, the role isn't called babysitter - it's called tank. A competent DPS on my team won't die because a competent DPS on my team knows where his safe area is from which he can employ his damage. I will break my back for anyone doing their job and maintaining the presence of how to best employ their role. I won't bat an eye for a DPS chasing numbers by pushing ahead of the tank and ruining my ability to maintain the tempo and location of the battle.

This really should be the topic of a different thread because regardless what you call your approach, it's not tanking. The role and responsibility of the "tank" has been consistent across all MMO's (news flash, WoW didn't invent it) that have any semblance of the trinity, and what you're doing is trying to get people to accept some other definition for that role. Why? because ZOS has neutered tanks so now we need to reinvent it? Not gonna happen, nor should it.

Good luck with your crusade though.

No, it hasn't been. It was reinvented by WOW when the tank turned into nothing more than a self-buffing damage sponge. Every tank in every other popular MMO prior to that I've seen has always had a significant portion of damage contributed to the team. Ever seen a 26k HP DPSer? That's a character that doesn't need to be babysat.

Spamming inner fire/puncture was never the primary intent in the game else they would have given us AOE taunts. And neither was 0/0/63, but people do it cuz FTC chat data. Twisting ESO mechanics to meet the WOW requirements is simply not why I bother to play ESO.

Play the game the way you want to play it. Develop your character to what fits your play style. If you have reservations to my build and how I play then put your money where your fingers are and come check it out.

Until then, hold the hamster wheel theories.

Sorry but the tank in WoW is no different than tanks in DAoC or FFXI, both of which came before WoW was released.

As far as your offer to see you in action... yeah I'm just dying to group with you on my healer while you let the mobs swarm me trying to keep your DPS numbers high and ignoring taunts to keep them off me. I'll stick with real tanks thank you very much.

This PVE/PVP issue that tanks deal with reminds me of a problem with a lot of other games. In STO there was a phase of the game where Tanks aka the Ships known as Cruisers did ludicrous amounts of damage and couldn't die. Most players didn't know how to do this, but the ones who did could Fire at Will and aoe bomb the crap out of enemies. The Devs didn't like this on STO, so they nerfed the Cruiser into nigh uselessness. The Cruiser had no damage, and could barely tank. Everyone gravitated toward DPS. The Science ship (healer/controller) in the game never did good damage, and wasn't really good at its role once its control effects were gelded. What this meant was that the DPS role became the only role, and it was clear from videos of the devs playing the game that they favored DPS to the other roles, and it was clear in design. I've seen this happen in many other games past, which is why I was upset about such sweeping changes to the Tank role. Do the devs just favor DPS over Tank? I have decided I don't want to wait and find out, and just changed my role. I certainly don't want to hold my breath over some hopeless dream or delusion that they'll see the light. I am upset though about the amazing silence on the matter, and the giddiness with which they seem to take the nerfs ruining a whole class of players playstyle (tanks) as an improvement.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but here it is: There's no reason to be a tank in pvp unless you're a masochist. In PvE its not particularly helpful either except in .01% of the content that very few players (other than competitive ones) do anyway. So what are we left with? We're left with a system I consider to be bad or flawed design. They should get back to the drawing board. Make the stamina costs for blocking significantly lower if you wear predominately heavy armor and a sword and board, but increase the costs for blocking significantly for other weapons. Put regeneration back to what it was on blocking. Voila, problem solved. Everyone wins, no more dresses and shields builds, at least not permablocking ones. I can not fathom why people think its okay that a mage build can cast hardened ward all day long, but a tank build can't hold up a shield. What is so confusing about this?

Evandus wrote: »

Not sure that I agree universally with @usmcjdking. But I will say that it's damn annoying to do some pug runs of Undaunted Pledges with dps that has 12-14k hp that sprint ahead of you, attack things, and die while you are holding 6 + mobs.

I have seen this alot lately.

Yeah I think everyone who tanks a lot knows about this kind of dps, and yes we've probably all let them die just so they can learn their lesson. There is a difference between letting bad gameplay die, and flailing about hopelessly because all your resources are at zero and you've got nothing to give. I like a challenge like the next guy, which is why I enjoy tanking, but there's a difference between a challenge and something that is extremely annoying.

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

"Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB." perhaps not, but letting your teammates die because their AoE's caused agro means you also didn't care to try and pick the agro back up or CC the enemies, which would make you not a tank. Keeping agro on large enemies and bosses is the main purpose of a tank, failing that or refusing to do so makes you, again, not a tank, just a selfish dps with a sword and board.

It's not selfish. It's an alternative to the utter borefest of RMB mastery. The guy said he hates meatshield tanking, I've offered him a viable solution - it's selfish of you and other dude to just *** on it with your WOW experience before you even investigate or give it a whirl.

First I just like to say that I think its hilarious that in every fantasy MMO I have played to date calling people WoW players or to tell them to go back to WoW is always a common insult. I have never played it so I couldn't care less about what you perceive as "WoW experience". And secondly, nowhere in your last comment did you respond to the fact that you admitted to letting your teammates die from not taunting, which again, would mean you are not a tank. Being able to soak up dmg is not the only thing tanks do, interrupting special attacks, CC'ing and agroing stuff away from the squishy healers and dps is however what makes you a tank or not. Now there are multiple ways to do that, sadly with the stamina regen nerf those options are now a lot fewer than they were. But not doing all that and calling yourself a tank is not helpful.

Let me post a simple graphic for you to understand what the word "tank" means.



Anywhere in front of the tank is generally a place you do not want to be, and often times where you will find most dead DPSers.

First, I like how you seem to think that words can only have one meaning. The meaning of a word can change depending on the context of which it is used. Tank is a nickname of the 3rd part of the so called holy trinity of fantasy mmo's, the different parts referring to each of the specific role that exists in group based content. Of course there are hybrids but if one is to be a good hybrid one would need to successfully accomplish the tasks that each roles is required to do not just one of the roles one claims to do.

Secondly, I still think its funny how you have yet to actually talk about the fact that you admitted to letting people in your group die because you were more focused on doing damage to the enemies, something that is meant for another part of said trinity. The DPS or DD, the roles which very name is the concept of dealing damage.

Address what now? The fact that I don't want to play babysitter so the DPS can stare at his FTC stat bar the whole fight? I don't personally care to wipe the ass of anyone who wants to solo-play in a dungeon. Fortunately for me, the role isn't called babysitter - it's called tank. A competent DPS on my team won't die because a competent DPS on my team knows where his safe area is from which he can employ his damage. I will break my back for anyone doing their job and maintaining the presence of how to best employ their role. I won't bat an eye for a DPS chasing numbers by pushing ahead of the tank and ruining my ability to maintain the tempo and location of the battle.

OH please enlighten us with your knowledge of what is and what is not a "safe area" for dps to do their job from, cause I'm pretty sure for melee dps for example is right in the thick of it and in large groups of trash the same can be said for magicka staff users. While I can agree with you that dps that run ahead of their tank deserves whatever comes their way I also know that a lot of people of all roles like to take their sweet time handling loot after every encounter making it look like whoever did not do that is simply rushing ahead, while in reality they just didn't notice that the rest of the team is just slow as F. And while standing in giant red circles of doom is bad for any player that was not what was being spoken about, AoE's is something you can't taunt away and the bosses are nine times out of ten not interruptible but the big trash that can be and everything with very few exceptions can be taunted. And while sure you are not a babysitter, it is however your job in synergy with the healer to keep the team alive, you can take more dmg than the dps, they don't build to take dmg they build to do it. While even just a little bit into survivability will go a long way taking away even the slightest from dps will drop their overall dmg quite significantly, that is why the healers and the tanks are so important in fights with lots of hard hitting mobs. vWGT and vICP for example is very unforgiving, even the smaller mobs can dish out lots of pain.

at the mobs back. i have for the last 15 years, rotated mobs so that DPS can take the mobs back. why? frontal AOE.... gotta keep that crap on me-, and mob mechanics in past MMOs were set that they couldn't block/parry from the rear, so your DPS would go up slightly, as a result. the other aoe is more or less everyone elses problem as i have little to no control over it, but i do move mob clusters as i can. i used to dodge roll to do that in ESO, now..... now i typically just walk the mobs like any other MMO.

since WoW and the rise of the "omg DPS!!!" group, yes, i do go out of my way to protect the ones in group that want to work as a team, and sometimes kill off the player that hinders the group. they are the ones that randomly flail about shout "DPS, DPS, DPS. mad skillz baby", spamming their stupid DPS counters, while pulling aggro left and right, taking far more healing than they should, then lecture about zone mechanics and how everyone is doing it wrong, and the tank sucks cuz he "knows a guy that can....". im the tank and i say "fall in line or be a corpse, don't like it then we can put each other on ignore and never have to deal with each other again"

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This PVE/PVP issue that tanks deal with reminds me of a problem with a lot of other games. In STO there was a phase of the game where Tanks aka the Ships known as Cruisers did ludicrous amounts of damage and couldn't die. Most players didn't know how to do this, but the ones who did could Fire at Will and aoe bomb the crap out of enemies. The Devs didn't like this on STO, so they nerfed the Cruiser into nigh uselessness. The Cruiser had no damage, and could barely tank. Everyone gravitated toward DPS. The Science ship (healer/controller) in the game never did good damage, and wasn't really good at its role once its control effects were gelded. What this meant was that the DPS role became the only role, and it was clear from videos of the devs playing the game that they favored DPS to the other roles, and it was clear in design. I've seen this happen in many other games past, which is why I was upset about such sweeping changes to the Tank role. Do the devs just favor DPS over Tank? I have decided I don't want to wait and find out, and just changed my role. I certainly don't want to hold my breath over some hopeless dream or delusion that they'll see the light. I am upset though about the amazing silence on the matter, and the giddiness with which they seem to take the nerfs ruining a whole class of players playstyle (tanks) as an improvement.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but here it is: There's no reason to be a tank in pvp unless you're a masochist. In PvE its not particularly helpful either except in .01% of the content that very few players (other than competitive ones) do anyway. So what are we left with? We're left with a system I consider to be bad or flawed design. They should get back to the drawing board. Make the stamina costs for blocking significantly lower if you wear predominately heavy armor and a sword and board, but increase the costs for blocking significantly for other weapons. Put regeneration back to what it was on blocking. Voila, problem solved. Everyone wins, no more dresses and shields builds, at least not permablocking ones. I can not fathom why people think its okay that a mage build can cast hardened ward all day long, but a tank build can't hold up a shield. What is so confusing about this?

uh... the proper term is sadist..... i go out of my way to annoy the hell out of the enemy and torment them in their efforts as much as possible =P. all in seriousness, i tried a few gear changes, and found i prefer my tank set. my skill line is dot heavy (yes i know purge thats why i dot), with fiery chain on my S&B line, and dot+DD with fiery chain, on my 2hander line. the point of my build is specifically to pull targets to the group or out of theirs, soften them as much as possible for DPS, and to kill if able. i think thats the key to tanks in ESO, you soften targets for others and disrupt the enemy. you certainly can't use your PVE skill lines that you use in tanking. its just like all PVP where you need to build for it. Proper CPs, and abilities are the key to having any worthwhile contribution in PVP.

that being said..... since i don't have block and dodge roll maxed in the champion system..... block... eeeeeh im probably dead so might as well, and dodge, twice and im done (well maybe more like 2.5 but who cares about .5). the cap concerns me cuz now i may have to make sure i build for PVE which will make me suck more in PVP.

usmcjdking wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Address what now? The fact that I don't want to play babysitter so the DPS can stare at his FTC stat bar the whole fight? I don't personally care to wipe the ass of anyone who wants to solo-play in a dungeon. Fortunately for me, the role isn't called babysitter - it's called tank. A competent DPS on my team won't die because a competent DPS on my team knows where his safe area is from which he can employ his damage. I will break my back for anyone doing their job and maintaining the presence of how to best employ their role. I won't bat an eye for a DPS chasing numbers by pushing ahead of the tank and ruining my ability to maintain the tempo and location of the battle.

This really should be the topic of a different thread because regardless what you call your approach, it's not tanking. The role and responsibility of the "tank" has been consistent across all MMO's (news flash, WoW didn't invent it) that have any semblance of the trinity, and what you're doing is trying to get people to accept some other definition for that role. Why? because ZOS has neutered tanks so now we need to reinvent it? Not gonna happen, nor should it.

Good luck with your crusade though.

No, it hasn't been. It was reinvented by WOW when the tank turned into nothing more than a self-buffing damage sponge. Every tank in every other popular MMO prior to that I've seen has always had a significant portion of damage contributed to the team. Ever seen a 26k HP DPSer? That's a character that doesn't need to be babysat.

Spamming inner fire/puncture was never the primary intent in the game else they would have given us AOE taunts. And neither was 0/0/63, but people do it cuz FTC chat data. Twisting ESO mechanics to meet the WOW requirements is simply not why I bother to play ESO.

Play the game the way you want to play it. Develop your character to what fits your play style. If you have reservations to my build and how I play then put your money where your fingers are and come check it out.

Until then, hold the hamster wheel theories.

I would love to follow your recommendation above in bold letters.... but i am unable to play my way and still be viable to endgame content. Its "play your way... while you level"... end game doesn't count i guess.

Let's talk about it and try it out dude! We can make it work.

I do like your attitude... but with orsinium coming out soon... tanking will be pretty much dunzo. I've already switched to a hybrid build that can't tank the heavy stuff, but can help deal damage. Group play is going to be sidelined... real hard.
I feel like that's my best bet for getting through the mal arena anyway. (and actually right now only magic/range have beaten the vet arena so i might be screwed either way)