kupacmac wrote: »

Well it didn't last long, but I've shelved my tank until the stamina regen is addressed. Sure tanking is "doable"... yeah that's really appealing isn't it? Meh.

I rolled a Sorc and will just do 3dps/1healer dungeon runs if there aren't any tanks available. Kiting bosses is a heck of a lot more interesting than tanking is now. At least I'll be useful in PvP.

I just stopped "tanking" with the DK in the general term of the word....
Went with sword and shield for 1 bar...
- pierce armor
- heroic slash
- unstable flame/flame breath (depending on what you want more)
- absorb magic
- volatile armor
- ult - dragon leap (dmg shield morph)

2hander (or dw for other bar depending on what you need - i have enough skill points to fill all these in plus every crafting skill at 9/10)
- wrecking blow (DW - rapid strikes)
- execute (DW - steel tornado)
- cleave - dmg shield morph (DW - unstable flame/flame breath)
- rally (DW - evil hunter)
- ingeneous shield
- ult - flawless dawnbreaker

If you want to do pure dps just use the DW and 2H bars (get rid of the sw&sh)
For gear i use 5 medium and 2 heavy (all medium has stam enchants, 2 heavy have health enchants)
Make sure to use the medium and heavy armor passive skills.
5p hundings rage
3p (jewelry) footmans - rings reduce stam cost/neck add stam recovery
1h&shield are endurance set
2H or DW is nightmothers, fill in the head and shoulders with a monster set or more nightmothers pieces.

All 64 points in stamina
warrior stone for weapon damage
blue v15 food (health and stamina)
I only have 100 cp. they are all put into dps help (almost nothing in terms of blocking and healing)

I end up with around 2k for sw&sh weapon damage (45% crit), 2400 for 2h (43% crit) and around 2800 for DW (64% crit).
22k for health, 23k for spell and phys resist, 10k for magic, 28k for stam. (with buffs and food)
You won't top the dps charts but can still solo any quest content and/or cut through dungeons... you can also take more than average damage. (not to say a boss wont 1 shot you... it happens if you're not careful)

We were able to do vet spindle and vet wayrest last night with me as the tank. Just keep your buffs up, keep taunts going, and use cleave to get damage shield. as soon as the ultimate is up... hit it. (i usually use dragon leap because the shield after is massive) Its very helpful in boss fights.

Its a lot more fun than regular tanking (as it is right now)... but you can't take as much as a regular tank either. So the harder vet dungeons are probably off limits. (which sucks) I understand that doing this isn't for everyone... i don't even really like it. but i just like to play the game so i had to find a way to work with not having any real tanks around.

The enjoyment people had from tanking took an arrow in the knee.

I am not looking for builds here. I am looking for the problems, solutions and counterarguments about the nerf. I have yet to see a compelling counterargument in favor of the nerf but hey it could happen. Please do not say it is more challenging because it is not. The shield is there for a reason they may as well have just cut it out with the current logic.

Vaelen wrote: »

They won't fix the Stam Regen problem until they figure out how the Battle Spirit buff works. It must have been one of their senior master developers that as since retired from ZOS since no one can currently figure out how to make some nerfs apply ONLY in PVP and leave PVE alone.

That's a big load if I have ever heard one. IC came out with many PvP specific changes.

Tanking is awful now... those who claim it is fun fall into one of 3 categories.

1. Didn't tank pre-patch.
2. Tanked lazy (i.e., Taunt+Block+Wait+Repeat)
3. Don't tank at all, but heard it from a friend of a friend.

I have tanked since pc closed beta, hell my twitch channel is "TotterTanks". I worked my ass off to become the best NA AD tank on PC.

The only time I tank now is when a guild (or friend's guild) absolutely needs a tank. Otherwise, you can find me on my new v16 Sorc, ripping through content with 30k dps.

usmcjdking wrote: »

TotterTates wrote: »

Tanking is awful now... those who claim it is fun fall into one of 3 categories.

1. Didn't tank pre-patch.
2. Tanked lazy (i.e., Taunt+Block+Wait+Repeat)
3. Don't tank at all, but heard it from a friend of a friend.

I have tanked since pc closed beta, hell my twitch channel is "TotterTanks". I worked my ass off to become the best NA AD tank on PC.

The only time I tank now is when a guild (or friend's guild) absolutely needs a tank. Otherwise, you can find me on my new v16 Sorc, ripping through content with 30k dps.

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

The whole point here is that isn't a tank anymore. That's a dps or healer with some survivability. It really isn't the same thing at all. Competitive PVE requires more from a player, and I don't really think its worth building a competitive pve tank that also pvp's. If I can't pvp with my main character effectively, then I will change my build appropriately, and that's what I've had to do along with many other players. This just means i can't tank like I did before in PVE, and I don't really care. I just think its a shame they did that to the systems of the game. My own solution to the issue from a systemic analysis is here:

Balance between Health, Magicka and Stamina.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I don't really see the changes as being good for pvp or pve. No offense to dungeon crawlers, but PVE is pretty mindless. Its interesting the first few runs through, but eventually once you have mastered a dungeon and gotten the gear, its just not interesting (apart from maybe trying to beat time objectives or personal bests on something). Playing against players on the other hand is interesting precisely because you DON'T KNOW what they will do.

First off Elder Scrolls should never be about PvP. Second PvP in Elder Scroll Online is wildly unbalanced and broken. Finally you PvP players copy the strongest built fight in the same pattern, use the same exploits and copy each others builds. Talk about mindless. #Haven'tYouHeardThatZergIsTheWord.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Why force the other members of the team to compensate or tack on the responsibility of supporting and replenishing the tank. You guys that come on here without reading the thread and post comments based off a title and a glance. We discuss this at length if you would bother to pay attention.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Debuffing and Crowd Control are part of the jobs of the tank as you say but I don't think that's what people are asking for. The issue is more than the Tank is pretty well a lame duck that has to choose between gaining Agro or staying alive, unless he's a extremely high CP character with top line gear. Even then the tank is huffing and puffing to do his job. What the changes have done is completely neutered the Tank in pvp, and have made the tank extremely annoying to play.

The PVP tank is meant to create trouble and annoyance and draw hate through that annoyance (debuffing and controlling). The PVP tank is meant to win a battle by attrition and over time, and is not a burst build. The problem with the latest change to game rules is that they've given DPS a significant improvement over Tanking in this arena. The point is simply that the Tank is losing far too much damage output in Cyrodiil (and I would argue even in the pve map) in relation to minimal benefit toward survivability. The point is that people are calling a Templar healer build the 'tank' because the tank build is so shoddy as is.

I have no problem agroing everything in an encounter and staying alive while doing it, I would not consider myself having high Cp at only 320sih and please define "top line gear". I think we are discussing two different things since your arguments seem to all focus on PvP from what I have read in the thread, while I was asking more for an answer in the regards of PvE.

nordsavage wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Why force the other members of the team to compensate or tack on the responsibility of supporting and replenishing the tank. You guys that come on here without reading the thread and post comments based off a title and a glance. We discuss this at length if you would bother to pay attention.

With that argumnet why bother to heal the dps. Why give the dps a regen boost with say elemental drain. Let them heal themselves and give themselves their own buffs. heck I know stamina dps's that cry for shards more than I do, lets not give them any either. Working as a team and giving out necessary buffs that synergies the roles is in my opinion preferable to everyone who just think selfishly.

paulsimonps wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Debuffing and Crowd Control are part of the jobs of the tank as you say but I don't think that's what people are asking for. The issue is more than the Tank is pretty well a lame duck that has to choose between gaining Agro or staying alive, unless he's a extremely high CP character with top line gear. Even then the tank is huffing and puffing to do his job. What the changes have done is completely neutered the Tank in pvp, and have made the tank extremely annoying to play.

The PVP tank is meant to create trouble and annoyance and draw hate through that annoyance (debuffing and controlling). The PVP tank is meant to win a battle by attrition and over time, and is not a burst build. The problem with the latest change to game rules is that they've given DPS a significant improvement over Tanking in this arena. The point is simply that the Tank is losing far too much damage output in Cyrodiil (and I would argue even in the pve map) in relation to minimal benefit toward survivability. The point is that people are calling a Templar healer build the 'tank' because the tank build is so shoddy as is.

I have no problem agroing everything in an encounter and staying alive while doing it, I would not consider myself having high Cp at only 320sih and please define "top line gear". I think we are discussing two different things since your arguments seem to all focus on PvP from what I have read in the thread, while I was asking more for an answer in the regards of PvE.

In my own enjoyment of the game I like to do the dungeon/raid (whatever you want to call it) content. I don't consider myself in the 'pve' camp but I think its preposterous to assume that someone is all in on one or the other. Many players like myself favor PVP but also enjoy PVE/PVE End game as well in varying degrees and shades. I'm actually looking forward to the solo arena in Orsinium for a chance to test my build in a solo environment, and I suspect a lot of players including PVP'ers look forward to this as well. My argument does focus on the balance between playing the Tank as a PvE and PvP. It annoys me greatly that to play as a solid PVE tank, that I pretty much have to reduce my character to wearing a big kick me sign in Cyrodiil. A proper pve tank is a fragile thing out there, and can whack on a dps all day long and never injure him. This is in large part due to the asinine changes both to Cyrodiil as well as the ridiculous removal of stamina regeneration while blocking. I personally think if you're wearing 5pc's heavy and a sword and shield you should still get your stamina regen while blocking. I think if they want to stop the non tanks (people not in that configuration) from blocking a lot, they should simply make the stamina costs for blocking SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER on non-Shield Non-Heavy configurations. That is my opinion. They need to make the armor, the weapon, and the skills more related to this.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't really get what it is people expect a tank to do here. Sure keeping agro on bosses and as many trash mobs and adds as possible is a given, but why is it that everyone want them to also either be giving out heals as strong as a dedicated healer or to be able to dps as much as a full on dps? When I tank I taunt all that I can see with the pierce armor, that gives out 2 of the 5 possible debuffs, then I either use choking talons or deep slash so in total 3 out of the possible 5 debuffs, and on bosses or other targets that heal themselves I use reverberating bash so 4 out of the 5 possible debuffs the last one being mangle which few uses and doesn't work on bosses. Above that I support the team with aggressive warhorns and igneous shield that also gives out mountains blessing. Is that not enough? Why does everyone feel the need to tack on extra responsibilities on the tank?

Debuffing and Crowd Control are part of the jobs of the tank as you say but I don't think that's what people are asking for. The issue is more than the Tank is pretty well a lame duck that has to choose between gaining Agro or staying alive, unless he's a extremely high CP character with top line gear. Even then the tank is huffing and puffing to do his job. What the changes have done is completely neutered the Tank in pvp, and have made the tank extremely annoying to play.

The PVP tank is meant to create trouble and annoyance and draw hate through that annoyance (debuffing and controlling). The PVP tank is meant to win a battle by attrition and over time, and is not a burst build. The problem with the latest change to game rules is that they've given DPS a significant improvement over Tanking in this arena. The point is simply that the Tank is losing far too much damage output in Cyrodiil (and I would argue even in the pve map) in relation to minimal benefit toward survivability. The point is that people are calling a Templar healer build the 'tank' because the tank build is so shoddy as is.

I have no problem agroing everything in an encounter and staying alive while doing it, I would not consider myself having high Cp at only 320sih and please define "top line gear". I think we are discussing two different things since your arguments seem to all focus on PvP from what I have read in the thread, while I was asking more for an answer in the regards of PvE.

In my own enjoyment of the game I like to do the dungeon/raid (whatever you want to call it) content. I don't consider myself in the 'pve' camp but I think its preposterous to assume that someone is all in on one or the other. Many players like myself favor PVP but also enjoy PVE/PVE End game as well in varying degrees and shades. I'm actually looking forward to the solo arena in Orsinium for a chance to test my build in a solo environment, and I suspect a lot of players including PVP'ers look forward to this as well. My argument does focus on the balance between playing the Tank as a PvE and PvP. It annoys me greatly that to play as a solid PVE tank, that I pretty much have to reduce my character to wearing a big kick me sign in Cyrodiil. A proper pve tank is a fragile thing out there, and can whack on a dps all day long and never injure him. This is in large part due to the asinine changes both to Cyrodiil as well as the ridiculous removal of stamina regeneration while blocking. I personally think if you're wearing 5pc's heavy and a sword and shield you should still get your stamina regen while blocking. I think if they want to stop the non tanks (people not in that configuration) from blocking a lot, they should simply make the stamina costs for blocking SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER on non-Shield Non-Heavy configurations. That is my opinion. They need to make the armor, the weapon, and the skills more related to this.

That is something I could agree on, making blocking cost more in its base form and up the block cost reduction of wearing heavy armor and or sword and board. That would limit block casting of dps and healers not only in pvp but in pve as well. which would make things interesting in a fun way I think

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

"Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB." perhaps not, but letting your teammates die because their AoE's caused agro means you also didn't care to try and pick the agro back up or CC the enemies, which would make you not a tank. Keeping agro on large enemies and bosses is the main purpose of a tank, failing that or refusing to do so makes you, again, not a tank, just a selfish dps with a sword and board.

Yet another reason why I wish Caltrops were not the only real CC worth using for masses of mobs on my Templar tank build. Templars need an aoe cc back, but that's another issue.

usmcjdking wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Full on damage sponge is AWFUL, which is why I no longer try to just be a sponge. But tanking in general isn't, bro. Just respect your tank to be more like an offensive warrior with a sword and shield and a tad bit of sustainability.

I have no problem letting the 16khp Magicka XYZs die because of their big AOE agro bombs. They need to learn to play the game just like everyone else.

Sounds like you are saying screw the team you need to look out for yourself. A result of the nerf no doubt on top of the wrong personality for a tank. Learn to play is not a valid argument.

That's not anti-tank personality. That's anti-damage sponge/WoW personality. I have a sword, thus I am going to use my sword. I went from EQ -> COH

---

> ESO. Tanks in those games were unstoppable behemoths that could beat the everloving *** out of everything. They did anywhere between 60-80% of the damage DPSers did. Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB.

"Tanks in ESO are not regulated to sit there and stalwartly hold RMB." perhaps not, but letting your teammates die because their AoE's caused agro means you also didn't care to try and pick the agro back up or CC the enemies, which would make you not a tank. Keeping agro on large enemies and bosses is the main purpose of a tank, failing that or refusing to do so makes you, again, not a tank, just a selfish dps with a sword and board.

It's not selfish. It's an alternative to the utter borefest of RMB mastery. The guy said he hates meatshield tanking, I've offered him a viable solution - it's selfish of you and other dude to just *** on it with your WOW experience before you even investigate or give it a whirl.

First I just like to say that I think its hilarious that in every fantasy MMO I have played to date calling people WoW players or to tell them to go back to WoW is always a common insult. I have never played it so I couldn't care less about what you perceive as "WoW experience". And secondly, nowhere in your last comment did you respond to the fact that you admitted to letting your teammates die from not taunting, which again, would mean you are not a tank. Being able to soak up dmg is not the only thing tanks do, interrupting special attacks, CC'ing and agroing stuff away from the squishy healers and dps is however what makes you a tank or not. Now there are multiple ways to do that, sadly with the stamina regen nerf those options are now a lot fewer than they were. But not doing all that and calling yourself a tank is not helpful.