Fix the macro users

Ackwalan · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

Do you have a link for that quote? I seem to remember them saying they didn't have a fix for it, so they weren't going to call it an exploit.

Perhaps this would enlighten you? From one of the ESO Lives last year:

That is a lot different then saying its "emergent gameplay" When something is "Not exactly intended" it is broken gameplay.

That was the first thing I could find. There's a number of other dev responses on the forums if you want to look for them. At this point you're just splitting hairs over diction and phraseology, what matters is that ZOS does not deem this a bug or exploit and has not plans to change it.

I did look for them. And they all say it is unintended, and not a single one says "they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay". Animation canceling ruins the emersion of combat. Instead of parrying and fighting, it just a button mash.

hammayolettuce · October 2015

We live in a land full of exploits. I don't see macros anywhere near the top of the list. Regardless of how embarrassing it is that you let a script kill you that has no reaction to you moving/blocking/dodging/rolling/resetting your router.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

Did I say I didn't like it?

I actually think it's pretty pathetic that the devs are effectively endorsing it and makes one wonder why there's animation at all if this is the stance one takes.

Please say you have this in writing somewhere? A lot in my guild are already questioning the value of IC DLC and are pretty upset that another DLC is already coming so soon. I'd love to hear their reaction when I tell them that to be effective at end game and PvP that they have to cancel the animation of their characters.

I loved the bit where you said ZOS stated it was unforeseen yet end game content requires it And they see it as emergent gameplay. The new skill lines are going to be awesome, they will just happen, no silly things like swing your arms in the air anymore. In fact there will be more animation in Pac Man then there will be in this game. Can't wait for the new mounts. I want to ride a 2x4, no chance of animation there.

The action should not be completed until the animation has completed, if the animation is cancelled then the action is cancelled. Try opening a bottle of cool aid to drink but cancel opening the bottle.

Actually, I just thought of a new DLC for you ZOS....

We need more of this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEEDKZDRri4

This will end that pesky animation.

Teargrants · October 2015

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

Did I say I didn't like it?

I actually think it's pretty pathetic that the devs are effectively endorsing it and makes one wonder why there's animation at all if this is the stance one takes.

Please say you have this in writing somewhere? A lot in my guild are already questioning the value of IC DLC and are pretty upset that another DLC is already coming so soon. I'd love to hear their reaction when I tell them that to be effective at end game and PvP that they have to cancel the animation of their characters.

I loved the bit where you said ZOS stated it was unforeseen yet end game content requires it And they see it as emergent gameplay. The new skill lines are going to be awesome, they will just happen, no silly things like swing your arms in the air anymore. In fact there will be more animation in Pac Man then there will be in this game. Can't wait for the new mounts. I want to ride a 2x4, no chance of animation there.

The action should not be completed until the animation has completed, if the animation is cancelled then the action is cancelled. Try opening a bottle of cool aid to drink but cancel opening the bottle.

Actually, I just thought of a new DLC for you ZOS....

We need more of this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEEDKZDRri4

This will end that pesky animation.

First off, your post that I replied to implied you don't approve of animation cancelling, through your sarcasm.

Secondly, I already posted the screenshot of Gina's reply on Twitch stating that they do not see animation cancelling as an exploit. Gina also said it was an unintended mechanic.

Third, none of that conflicts with what I said about the design of end game content. My only guess why you would disagree with that is that you weren't around back before Craglorn. You see, the end game content for the last year was Craglorn trials. those were added to the game long long after the initial queries about animation cancelling and ZOS's statements that it was essentially here to stay. Yes, animation cancelling was something the devs did not anticipate (just goes to show what amateurs they are, really) and yes, the PvE end game is balanced around using animation cancelling. Why are these two seemingly contradictory facts true? Because the end game was added after release, after animation cancelling had become the meta. From that point on, all new PvE end game content was designed with that in mind.

If you're worried about your guild not liking animation cancelling in PvP, all I can say is, that should be the least of your worries. PvP has so much other more pressing balance issues: LAG, zerg blobbing and all the mechanic/skill changes that ZOS has made over the past year which only strengthened the blob & weakened smaller groups, ect.

Teargrants · October 2015

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

Do you have a link for that quote? I seem to remember them saying they didn't have a fix for it, so they weren't going to call it an exploit.

Perhaps this would enlighten you? From one of the ESO Lives last year:

That is a lot different then saying its "emergent gameplay" When something is "Not exactly intended" it is broken gameplay.

That was the first thing I could find. There's a number of other dev responses on the forums if you want to look for them. At this point you're just splitting hairs over diction and phraseology, what matters is that ZOS does not deem this a bug or exploit and has not plans to change it.

I did look for them. And they all say it is unintended, and not a single one says "they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay". Animation canceling ruins the emersion of combat. Instead of parrying and fighting, it just a button mash.

Typo, or were you perhaps confused by my use of the word 'emergent'? I'm not calling it immersive gameplay, if that's what you thought.

e·mer·gent
əˈmərjənt/
adjective
1. in the process of coming into being or becoming prominent.

Vanzen · October 2015

From what I have seen in chat. Its obvious many people use the light attack/skill macro. Cause its simple and efficient. Then you can do the bash cancel manualy. So it goes like 1click/Bash. Efficient ... As for other macros, seeing how dynamic is pvp, I dont think its worth it.

Maulkin · October 2015

Those who think that animation cancelling is not endorsed by ZOS need to look at the stuff that has been added to the game in the last 8 months or so...

- Grim Focus (aka Spectral Bow) the NB skill that triggers a spectral bow after 4 light attacks.
- Shield Breaker procs irresistible damage on light attacks
- Maelstrom Destruction Staff. Adds1k extra damage to your light attacks against targets sitting inside your Wall Elements
- Molag Kena procs damage boost on two light attacks

You mean to tell me they added these skills/sets/weapons as a DPS boost, but they don't expect you to animation cancel those light attacks?

That for example the new maelstrom staff, they expect you to put a WoE down and then just spam light attacks instead of animation cancelling them? But that would lead to worse DPS than just spamming Force Pulse. These sets/weapons/skills were designed to be DPS boost, not DPS loss, and therefore require you to animation cancel to get that boost.

And you're still here debating if ZOS approves of animation cancelling? Wake up. They are basing their end-game sets around it. Of course they are endorsing it.

Mumyo · October 2015

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Minnesinger · October 2015

Mumyo wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Ever heard of animation cancelling without macros? Just press light attack/ block. Working since BETA.

Minnesinger · October 2015

It is easy to cry macros!! But as said in this thread humans are very well capable of pressing few buttons fast enough. Can´t really say who is macroing and who is just a good player.

Mumyo · October 2015

Minnesinger wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Ever heard of animation cancelling without macros? Just press light attack/ block. Working since BETA.

u are 10 times faster with macros. macros skip it before u even gave the command to block on ur finger.

Alcast · October 2015

Almost Nobody uses macros, its always animation canceling...its faster..macros get f up due to delay/lag

Muizer · October 2015

Tbh, I think many of us have had instances where we were killed before we even became aware we were under attack, and then saw in the death recap a whole series of attacks.

I agree macroing does not explain it. Even animation cancelling can only shave off so much. But latency cannot explain it either. Sometimes even with animation cancelling such a series would take seconds to complete. Latency is a whole order of magnitude less.

I'm not enough of an expert on how mmos handle information streams, but something seems off besides animation cancelling and the latency we're shown in-game.

Sharee · October 2015

Muizer wrote: »

Tbh, I think many of us have had instances where we were killed before we even became aware we were under attack, and then saw in the death recap a whole series of attacks.

I agree macroing does not explain it. Even animation cancelling can only shave off so much. But latency cannot explain it either. Sometimes even with animation cancelling such a series would take seconds to complete. Latency is a whole order of magnitude less.

I'm not enough of an expert on how mmos handle information streams, but something seems off besides animation cancelling and the latency we're shown in-game.

The thing is different categories of attacks have separate cooldowns. Using an ability triggers a cooldown that will prevent you from using another ability for a certain period of time, but it does not prevent a light attack. Using the light attack does not prevent a followup bash. And using the bash does not prevent a followup ultimate.

So you can do an ability, then a light attack, then a bash, and then an ultimate, all in the fraction of a second. If the first ability has a cast time, you can even do ability+ability(because the CD for first ability will expire by the time the cast finishes)+LA+bash+ult, so 5 attacks landing all virtually at once.

And while this is possible to do without a macro if you are really fast at pushing buttons, a macro will do it perfectly, everytime, no matter how distracted, sleepy, drunk, under pressure etc. you happen to be at that moment. That's the problem with macros. Not that you can do 5 attacks at once perfectly, but that you can do 5 attacks at once perfectly everytime.

FriedEggSandwich · October 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Tbh, I think many of us have had instances where we were killed before we even became aware we were under attack, and then saw in the death recap a whole series of attacks.

I agree macroing does not explain it. Even animation cancelling can only shave off so much. But latency cannot explain it either. Sometimes even with animation cancelling such a series would take seconds to complete. Latency is a whole order of magnitude less.

I'm not enough of an expert on how mmos handle information streams, but something seems off besides animation cancelling and the latency we're shown in-game.

The thing is different categories of attacks have separate cooldowns. Using an ability triggers a cooldown that will prevent you from using another ability for a certain period of time, but it does not prevent a light attack. Using the light attack does not prevent a followup bash. And using the bash does not prevent a followup ultimate.

So you can do an ability, then a light attack, then a bash, and then an ultimate, all in the fraction of a second. If the first ability has a cast time, you can even do ability+ability(because the CD for first ability will expire by the time the cast finishes)+LA+bash+ult, so 5 attacks landing all virtually at once.

And while this is possible to do without a macro if you are really fast at pushing buttons, a macro will do it perfectly, everytime, no matter how distracted, sleepy, drunk, under pressure etc. you happen to be at that moment. That's the problem with macros. Not that you can do 5 attacks at once perfectly, but that you can do 5 attacks at once perfectly everytime.

For reasons you highlighted in your final paragraph it would be very hard to tell if someone was a macro user or just had very well developed muscle memory.

Being distracted, sleepy, drunk, under pressure would negatively affect other aspects of your game, such as situational awareness, positioning etc. negating much of the advantage of being able to pull off the perfect rotation while compromised.

I personally have a rotation which relies on timed explosions (curse) and procs (frags), and struggle to see how either of those could be easily used in a macro. I know there are other high damage insta-cast skills, but my point is that the type of macro you describe sounds very situational and not for every build.

I'm sure there are players out there who have a macro or two programmed into their mice, but how often do they get to use them effectively I wonder? Maybe I'm just naiive, but for the reasons I've highlighted I still believe macros to be a non-issue in this game. And they certainly don't warrant the kind of hysteria in the op. Maybe if this was pro starcraft it would be an issue. There is so much wtf bs in eso pvp that getting wound up about the possibility of someone using macros seems so pointless. If you're convinced someone is macroing then you convinced yourself.

Manoekin · October 2015

Too many posts to respond to, so I'll just make a general post...

ZOS is in favor of animation cancelling for two reasons:

ZOS wants the player to be in control of their character as much as possible. Putting in a system where you're stuck in an animation for the given spell is a clunky mechanic that infuriates players who wonder why they can't move on to the next step after casting their instant cast spell.
ZOS has a mechanic in place to prevent abuse of this. You cannot cast another spell instantly after animation cancelling your previous spell. Why is this? Every time you cast a spell or light attack your character performs an animation that you can cancel, but you are also put on an internal global cooldown. Only three things I can think of are actually usable during this cooldown: block, bash, dodge roll. Those are what you can use to cancel the animation, right? However, you're still on cooldown albeit for a ridiculously short amount of time that most players seem to not notice. All animation cancelling allows you to do is bash, block, or dodge roll at any time you want. This has been reinforced by ZOS early on in the game putting these three options at the top of the game's priority list over any cast/animation/cooldown, so that they could be used when needed and not after. What we get is gameplay that feels responsive, and less people breaking their mouse/keyboard because the game wouldn't let them block a big attack because they were in the middle of an animation. If you think you can cast another spell before the cooldown is over I suggest you recheck (last I remember, you can't animation cancel with another ability, for example mashing your breath of life button doesn't make you heal faster than if you perfectly timed it with the cooldown, your 2nd button mash doesn't interrupt the first).

If you want a more thorough answer on animation cancelling, search for responses on this subject from Tripwyr Manawrath. He explains it better than I can.

kevlarto_ESO · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

July 22nd ESO live there was an animator who said changes were coming to animation canceling, but did not go into detail, but who knows that could have been scraped, I would say they do have plans to change it if does not impact the game play in a negative way, just something to think about down the road.

Nijjion · October 2015

So the people defending is it ok for all of us to start macroing then? because that what it sounds like.

With my lag it would be great to be able to create macros to help... I always thought they were banned.

danno8 · October 2015

The only time I find animation cancelling and it's propensity for 2-3 button macroing annoying is the 1-shot from stealth mechanic.

That is probably the only real big negative it has lead to due to it's "unforeseen" nature.

Soris · October 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Almost Nobody uses macros, its always animation canceling...its faster..macros get f up due to delay/lag

Nobody? Lol dont be so naive. Adding that la+skill+bash cancel to your mouse is like child toy. And if there are no huge lag spikes, it works just fine and fluent.
I'm sure most ppl who use a stamina s/b build have that macro setted somewhere in their mouses.

Crown · October 2015

Consider that just about every single person using a Razer product is using macros. Technically, mapping the letter Q to button #12 on a Razer Naga Epic is a macro.

I have a friend who broke his left hand. There was no possible way that he could do anything other than mash keyboard with his left hand for about a month until his cast came off (this was about 6 months ago). What we did for him was buy a Razer Naga Epic, and set up macros for his 12 buttons. We plugged in a second keyboard that could go under his cast hand, and modded it so that the only working button was SHIFT. This gave him 24 effective buttons (in addition to left and right click) to use. We then set macros for everything in game so that either one of the native 12 buttons or SHIFT-button would map to something usable. This includes skills, movement, roll dodging, opening character window, skills window, even the crown store. Ignoring the fact that he's a filthy casual who doesn't PvP, he wouldn't have been able to play at all without the use of macros.

Here's a second scenario: In PvE, light or medium attack weaving will net you the most damage. We knew this back at the beginning of the game, so there's no complaining about unfair advantage. The time between when you click for a light attack and when you can get your skill off (cancelling the light attack animation) is about 0.18 seconds. How do I know this? I spent about 6 hours back in patch 1.4 playing with mammoths and macros trying to work out the timing. Once I got the timing, watching my toon macro for 10 seconds, then trying to replicate that timing manually (on the next mammoth). After enough practice, I was manually able to get that timing almost perfect (my average is about 0.25 seconds so close enough). Once I got the light weaving down, I did the same for medium weaving (fire staff), then cancelling skills with a roll, then with a block, then with a bash. Overall, I probably spent about 20 hours working on my timing and skills. This resulted in my having one of the highest magicka NB DPS numbers for Sanctum when it was first released, and as I got into PvP the muscle memory and training carried over.

If you're a horrible player - for argument's sake let say you're in the bottom 10% of all players, using macros in PvP might get you to the bottom 50% just because it allows you to not-think about things and hope that your opponent is stupid and/or can't hit a button to mitigate your damage. After that point, as @Yonkit implied, macros will hinder you in PvP. If you hit a macro that takes 3.5 seconds to get off, and you need to move, roll, or cast something else at the 1.75 second point, then you lose. As anyone in an FPS shooter will tell you, reaction times are critical, and tying yourself up in a few seconds of automated activities is more than likely the reason many people who rely on macros fail.

The moral of the story is, stop crying about "macros are bad". Understand what the technology is, how it works, and what it's used for. If you want to cry about people who apparently chain macros to get multiple skills off without having to hit the buttons, that's really a "learn to play" issue. If an opponent hits you with a salvo of one skill after the other, roll, put up a shield, hit them back, cc them, do something. If you're just going to whine and complain, then all that you're going to get from your peers is contempt.

Soris · October 2015

Crown wrote: »

The moral of the story is, stop crying about "macros are bad". Understand what the technology is, how it works, and what it's used for. If you want to cry about people who apparently chain macros to get multiple skills off without having to hit the buttons, that's really a "learn to play" issue. If an opponent hits you with a salvo of one skill after the other, roll, put up a shield, hit them back, cc them, do something. If you're just going to whine and complain, then all that you're going to get from your peers is contempt.

So you're saying one person using one single button to chain command 3 buttons, and the other guy manually pressing all 3 buttons as the way it is supposed to be, and you call that l2p issue? /facepalm

Macros dont make bad players to be any good, right. But they give advantages when a skilled player use them. And they arent slow like some of you said.They dont require 3.5 seconds to get off. Where did you see that?
If you adjust them right, they work perfectly clear and fast. So what the hell are you talking about seriously, dont defend this ***.

And btw, you dont need to pay 500 bucks for 12 buttons Razer mouse. Even cheap ones are more than enough.

Crown · October 2015

Soris wrote: »

So you're saying one person using one single button to chain command 3 buttons, and the other guy manually pressing all 3 buttons as the way it is supposed to be, and you call that l2p issue? /facepalm

There is no "supposed to be". If you're lazy and want to macro three buttons together, I'll probably see what the combo is, and time my interrupt just right to get in the middle of your first and second spell, likely killing you as you couldn't react in time being dependent on your macro finishing. Talk to ANY skilled player (duellists are better candidates than large group players) and I'm sure they'll tell you the same.

Soris wrote: »

Macros dont make bad players to be any good, right. But they give advantages when a skilled player use them. And they arent slow like some of you said.

They hinder skilled players in PvP where split second decisions make the difference. In PvE where in many fights you can move a bit and use the exact same rotation, they can increase your damage. Note the difference between PvE and PvP.

Soris wrote: »

They dont require 3.5 seconds to get off. Where did you see that?

Note what @Manoekin wrote:

Manoekin wrote: »

ZOS has a mechanic in place to prevent abuse of this. You cannot cast another spell instantly after animation cancelling your previous spell. Why is this? Every time you cast a spell or light attack your character performs an animation that you can cancel, but you are also put on an internal global cooldown. Only three things I can think of are actually usable during this cooldown: block, bash, dodge roll.

They take the amount of time that each of the skills take per the GCD (global cool down) with light attacks inter spaced. The light attacks (1-2k damage for most magicka classes) add about a quarter of a second for each instead of the 3/4 second full cast time.

Soris wrote: »

If you adjust them right, they work perfectly clear and fast. So what the hell are you talking about seriously, dont defend this ***.

I'm not defending macro users, I'm attacking the people who complain about macros without understanding them. Macros work in the time it would normally take a skilled player to get off the same skills, though limit the player to the specific set of skills in the macro. In the case where the macro is only 1-2 skills (such as a light attack weave), it makes no difference. In the case where it's 4-5 skills in a row, see my above comments - it can only hinder a skilled player.

Soris wrote: »

And btw, you dont need to pay 500 bucks for 12 buttons Razer mouse. Even cheap ones are more than enough.

$50 for a refurb at Newegg. I personally find the Razer mice to be the best. If there's something better, I'd be happy to try it.

riverdragon72 · October 2015

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

Yonkit · October 2015

I'm typing this message with a macro right now.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO · October 2015

@Teargrants I'll put this in the same format as you put, just so that we are both on the same page....

Firstly, implying and knowing are two completely separate things. My initial post pointed out the stupidity of the comment, not that I didn't like it. Now that we've cleared that up we can move on to....

Secondly, sorry for not following every single one of your posts and digesting every single comment on every single bit of media where ZOS representatives make a comment just as I don't expect, sorry, just as I know that not everybody on this forum is here waiting for my next comment. Even so, whatever has been said in the past seems to be more comical the more I hear it. Hearing we are "totally committed to removing Veteran Ranks" gets more hilarious each time I hear it. The running joke in my guild is that they are going to remove the Veteran Ranks, and on the same patch they are going to increase character level cap to 65 and the forum are going to say that's amazing and claim a win for getting rid of Veteran Ranks.

And finally, third. You see I don't have to worry too much about my guild. That problem is squarely on the shoulders of ZOS. You see, my guild are not paying me money to play the game. They are paying ZOS money. As you rightly pointed out, there are many things to be concerned about. The thing is, one subject my guild talks about is armour, specifically the look of the armour. We look at the seducer poly morph and what some of the NPCs wear and wonder why we can't craft similar to that. The argument comes down to people would complain that it will ruin their immersion to combat because how would a bikini protect you against a sword (even though they are quite happy with someone firing electricity from their fingertips). Well, part of that immersion also extends to fighting, how can an action be cancelled yet still have a positive result. One thing that stood The Elder Scrolls series out from the rest of the RPGs is it's immersion.

So, animation cancelling is part of the problem. It's not the highest priority, but it still needs to be addressed in a timely manner as the longer it goes on, the less the immersion argument holds weight.

From what I can see in this thread so far, there are more then a few that are questioning the use of macros and animation cancelling. I think the matter is stupid that it has got this far. I've paid for the game, paying for the DLCs, and encouraging people I know to get the game. So this is making me look stupid. Makes one question is the game worth it. And as I should be logged into the game now in IC sewers but not really in any rush to do it, it seems it's having a sub concious effect already.

Soris · October 2015

Crown wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

So you're saying one person using one single button to chain command 3 buttons, and the other guy manually pressing all 3 buttons as the way it is supposed to be, and you call that l2p issue? /facepalm

There is no "supposed to be". If you're lazy and want to macro three buttons together, I'll probably see what the combo is, and time my interrupt just right to get in the middle of your first and second spell, likely killing you as you couldn't react in time being dependent on your macro finishing. Talk to ANY skilled player (duellists are better candidates than large group players) and I'm sure they'll tell you the same.

Soris wrote: »

Macros dont make bad players to be any good, right. But they give advantages when a skilled player use them. And they arent slow like some of you said.

They hinder skilled players in PvP where split second decisions make the difference. In PvE where in many fights you can move a bit and use the exact same rotation, they can increase your damage. Note the difference between PvE and PvP.

Soris wrote: »

They dont require 3.5 seconds to get off. Where did you see that?

Note what @Manoekin wrote:

Manoekin wrote: »

ZOS has a mechanic in place to prevent abuse of this. You cannot cast another spell instantly after animation cancelling your previous spell. Why is this? Every time you cast a spell or light attack your character performs an animation that you can cancel, but you are also put on an internal global cooldown. Only three things I can think of are actually usable during this cooldown: block, bash, dodge roll.

They take the amount of time that each of the skills take per the GCD (global cool down) with light attacks inter spaced. The light attacks (1-2k damage for most magicka classes) add about a quarter of a second for each instead of the 3/4 second full cast time.

Soris wrote: »

If you adjust them right, they work perfectly clear and fast. So what the hell are you talking about seriously, dont defend this ***.

I'm not defending macro users, I'm attacking the people who complain about macros without understanding them. Macros work in the time it would normally take a skilled player to get off the same skills, though limit the player to the specific set of skills in the macro. In the case where the macro is only 1-2 skills (such as a light attack weave), it makes no difference. In the case where it's 4-5 skills in a row, see my above comments - it can only hinder a skilled player.

Soris wrote: »

And btw, you dont need to pay 500 bucks for 12 buttons Razer mouse. Even cheap ones are more than enough.

$50 for a refurb at Newegg. I personally find the Razer mice to be the best. If there's something better, I'd be happy to try it.

I'm sorry but I haven't born yesterday. I know Zos has a mechanic to prevent skill spam. And I know at the end of the 3-way animation canceling (after bash) there is a global cooldown to prevent you start off your next 3-way animation cancel that you cannot bypass with any ingame mechanic. But that cooldown is only for a second as the every other skill and action. Macros have nothing to do with this issue. I think you are the only one who doesn't understand how they work.

Secondly there is no reason for macros to hinder skilled players when they use. They don't slow people down. As you said, they work in time that it would normally take when a skilled player to get off the same skills manually. But the difference is, player A has less thing to deal with it while the player B is actually pressing all those buttons while scanning his enemy movement and his surroundings. And he actually working to gain that amount of skill required to successfully execute his animation cancel combo while the other guy does not.

And the other reason why macros do not hinder skilled players is that you don't add macros to all your skills and movement. Macro is only in your main attack, and you also have a un-macroed version of that skill in case if lag happens.
If you ever need to block an attack or dodge or interrupt or even breakfree whatever, you can just do that since all those actions have priority over light attacks and spells. And you know what, since most macros include bash cancel, so you automaticly interrupting your oppotent or break free.

Lastly, the "supposed to be" gameplay is supposed to be playing 100% legit without using a macro or any 3rd party program. But I think, since you are fine with that fact "lazy ppl can use macros", then I just sending my words into the void.

eliisra · October 2015

Yes, because you really need a macro to Camo Huntard, crouch and heavy attack + light attack.

It's a very complicated dps rotation

Poxheart · October 2015

It's like every few months a new wave of dumb sweeps into ESO and this argument crops up.

danno8 · October 2015

Crown wrote: »

Consider that just about every single person using a Razer product is using macros. Technically, mapping the letter Q to button #12 on a Razer Naga Epic is a macro.

No this is wrong. When people talk about "macros" they are not talking about remapping of keys to different keys or buttons. They are talking about circumventing the "1 key press, 1 action" rule by making it "1 key press, 3 actions" for instance.

You can debate their effectiveness if you wish. I agree that in normal combat they can be more of a liability than helpful. But I still think the out of stealth combo of Ambush, Light Attack, Soul Harvest, Bash should be easily macroable due to the animation/travel time on Ambush, and when done with Camo Hunter active it is basically an instant lethal combination.

So in that kind of case, a macro can make it extremely easy and you don't have to worry about your opponent fighting back at all.

In the end it is animation cancelling that makes it possible at all. But I like the idea of being able to roll, block or bash immediately so running into the odd macro user is just something we have to live with.