Fix the macro users

RedTalon

Ok the marcos that are being talked about here, are lets say you press one key, then that one key triggers a set of commands each perfectly timed out to be auto triggered after like a second or such has past. Can even script it so if your hit with a certain thing the needed key is pressed auto so you don't miss cleansing yourself from my understanding and researching the problem.

Basically, it makes sure you don't have to keep your fingers moving from key to key, or in case of a razer mouse thumb.

In fact you don't need any special keyboard or such to use them, seems they are still not enforcing those rules against such third party programs, but bleh its a losing battle.

Anyways just my two crowns.

Crown

@Soris If your macros contain a block or bash to cancel the spell/skill use, then that is the same priority as the block/bash/roll that you would use to counter whatever you're paying attention to. You sound as though you've never actually tried to manually use 5 skills sequentially with optimal timing.

@danno8 Proxy, Dark Cloak (optional), Lotus Fan, Fear, Soul Harvest, (Proxy Explosion), Light Attack, Concealed Weapon will kill almost anyone macro or not. To test this, my wife got on her DC toon, and I used the combo on her 6 times macro'ed, then 8 times manually (I messed up twice because of cat-on-keyboard-wanting-attention). There was less than 0.3 seconds difference in her time to death macro vs manual (excluding cat-related-delays on two attempts).

Setting up macros is EASY. I really don't understand why this is such an issue - unless the people doing all the complaining are not very good in PvP and just need an excuse.. I die more to wrecking blows spam than anything that could be construed as macro related.

@Redtalon Scripting auto key presses to cleanse/purge is not something that can be macro'ed using normal software (such as Razer). That would require an addon to do the work for you and is very different from what we're discussing here.

SirAndy

Ackwalan wrote: »

Most macro users don't string together long macros. They tie animation cancelling into individual attacks, or have follow up abilities after some attacks. Like have cloak macro'd in with ambush.
For the people screaming 'L2P', we know you are desperately trying to deflect and protect your macro use.

SirAndy

Crown wrote: »

@Redtalon Scripting auto key presses to cleanse/purge is not something that can be macro'ed using normal software (such as Razer). That would require an addon to do the work for you and is very different from what we're discussing here.

@Crown
You don't need an AddOn for that, you can (fairly easily) do that with 3rd party software ...

danno8

Crown wrote: »

@Soris If your macros contain a block or bash to cancel the spell/skill use, then that is the same priority as the block/bash/roll that you would use to counter whatever you're paying attention to. You sound as though you've never actually tried to manually use 5 skills sequentially with optimal timing.

@danno8 Proxy, Dark Cloak (optional), Lotus Fan, Fear, Soul Harvest, (Proxy Explosion), Light Attack, Concealed Weapon will kill almost anyone macro or not. To test this, my wife got on her DC toon, and I used the combo on her 6 times macro'ed, then 8 times manually (I messed up twice because of cat-on-keyboard-wanting-attention). There was less than 0.3 seconds difference in her time to death macro vs manual (excluding cat-related-delays on two attempts).

Setting up macros is EASY. I really don't understand why this is such an issue - unless the people doing all the complaining are not very good in PvP and just need an excuse.. I die more to wrecking blows spam than anything that could be construed as macro related.

EDIT: WAIT! THOSE WRECKING BLOW SPAMMERS MUST BE USING MACROS! ZOS SHOULD BAN THEM!

You won't notice much of a difference at all if you are using only skills that start the GCD. I am betting the .3 second difference was because the macro cancelled the light attack a little better. Throw in a bash after concealed weapon and you would probably notice a similar increase of another .3, so now you are at .6 seconds.

It's not a lot, for sure, but I tell you what, I would love to get a .6 second decrease in my cast time of Dark Flare.

The WB spammers don't use macros. They use some kind of hidden heavy attack weirdness and messed up distance checks. Get with it man.

Teargrants

Whatever your opinion about macros, you have to understand that there's very little a game company can do to police them.

Options are limited to:
- Have a gameguard type program that monitors processes on your PC and blocks known macro programs. This will always fail because ZOS can never track down all macro programs. At the very best it would require constant updating of a known macro program database, meaning more resources pulled away from game development and upkeep.
- Have a server or client side check to see the timing between your keystrokes. If the timing between certain ability chains is always the same over X number of repetitions, then the game institutes some sort of automated punishment - ie. boot from server, skill lock out, ect. If the check is server side, it will increase the lag, no and or ifs or buts about it. If the heck is client side, it's potentially vulnerable to hacking, ie. hacked client tells server different skill interval times each rotation using a random number generator.

So if you hate macros and want ZOS to "do something" about them, please request one of those two features rather than raging on and on.

Crown

@SirAndy For auto response to debuffs (break free or purge) it would be a lot easier with a simple addon. Addons can read character state and buffs/debuffs, so all that you'd need to do is look for the state change on particular named debuffs, and cast based on that. I'm not much of a coder these days (it's been 20+ years since the days I could breathe assembly), but even I could probably put that together in an hour or two.

Manoekin

SirAndy wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Redtalon Scripting auto key presses to cleanse/purge is not something that can be macro'ed using normal software (such as Razer). That would require an addon to do the work for you and is very different from what we're discussing here.

@Crown
You don't need an AddOn for that, you can (fairly easily) do that with 3rd party software ...

He was responding about an ability being auto pressed depending on whether or not the character was debuffed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something like that existed we would already have damage meters using the same concept. Forget about the fact that such a thing would be really impractical since you want to have control over your character at all times, and not just have your character overriding your own actions to respond to a set of rules at all times. In PvE such a thing would just be botting, and in pvp it would be a free kill :P

Crown

@danno8 The 0.3 second difference was exactly that - the better light cancel and it cut off the end of the Lotus Fan animation a bit tighter than I did. Block cancelling any of the skills that I'm using don't really help much, as the animations are quick enough to begin with. Where most people cry wolf is when they get hit with 4-5 skills within 1 second, and that's more a matter of lag catching up that someone macro'ing. I challenge anyone to come up with a sequence of attacks that will make a significant difference when macro'ed (other than the 0.1-0.2 second difference per skill).

SirAndy

Manoekin wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something like that existed we would already have damage meters using the same concept.

That, and more, already exists.

What most people don't realize is that under Windows, your application memory is NOT protected from being read or modified(!).

Any programmer with rudimentary experience with machine code can write a 3rd party app that can monitor (and modify) ESO's application memory at runtime.
In fact, it would be trivial to write a small app that looks for new incoming debuffs and interjects a keystroke to initiate a purge.

Everything you have access to in-game is open for a 3rd party app to be read or manipulated.

Crown

@SirAndy We already know about applications that are modifying the stacks for incoming damage, and resource utilization. Why even bother to automate a purge if you can just remove debuffs from your toon like that.. I've been saying for months that they should encrypt memory contents instead of just obfuscating locations so that the coders of said applications have to change little things each time there's a major update.

Manoekin

SirAndy wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something like that existed we would already have damage meters using the same concept.

That, and more, already exists.

What most people don't realize is that under Windows, your application memory is NOT protected from being read or modified(!).

Any programmer with rudimentary experience with machine code can write a 3rd party app that can monitor (and modify) ESO's application memory at runtime.
In fact, it would be trivial to write a small app that looks for new incoming debuffs and interjects a keystroke to initiate a purge.

Everything you have access to in-game is open for a 3rd party app to be read or manipulated.

Right, I remember Crown telling me about this a while ago now. As for damage meters I think there was more to it, but disregarding that part for now... I deny any practical use of an addon/program that purges for you unless you're going to bot. It would just get in the way. I don't see why it would be brought up in a serious discussion.

Sharee

Crown wrote: »

Consider that just about every single person using a Razer product is using macros. Technically, mapping the letter Q to button #12 on a Razer Naga Epic is a macro.

Technically, ZOS does not forbid macros, ZOS forbids automation.

As long as a single button press by you results in a single action performed by your character, there is nothing wrong with mapping the letter Q to button #12.

Soris

Manoekin wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Redtalon Scripting auto key presses to cleanse/purge is not something that can be macro'ed using normal software (such as Razer). That would require an addon to do the work for you and is very different from what we're discussing here.

@Crown
You don't need an AddOn for that, you can (fairly easily) do that with 3rd party software ...

He was responding about an ability being auto pressed depending on whether or not the character was debuffed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something like that existed we would already have damage meters using the same concept. Forget about the fact that such a thing would be really impractical since you want to have control over your character at all times, and not just have your character overriding your own actions to respond to a set of rules at all times. In PvE such a thing would just be botting, and in pvp it would be a free kill :P

Exactly. This is more like a script which presses buttons automaticly if certain conditions are met whether you want or not. In this case, it can kill you since you cant control your character.

A small set of macro is not like this since you activate it each time at your will. And that's only for animation cancelling -half a second long- not a huge lines of abilities or repetitive like bots.
Imagine a stamina dk with s/b la-puncture-bash spam build with this macro @Crown

Ackwalan

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The ZOS devs have specifically stated that while unforeseen during development, they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay. They have no plans to remove or alter it in the future, not to mention, end game PvE content is balanced around DPS checks that require animation cancelling so...

If you don't like animation cancelling, take it up w/ Eric Wrobel.

Do you have a link for that quote? I seem to remember them saying they didn't have a fix for it, so they weren't going to call it an exploit.

Perhaps this would enlighten you? From one of the ESO Lives last year:

That is a lot different then saying its "emergent gameplay" When something is "Not exactly intended" it is broken gameplay.

That was the first thing I could find. There's a number of other dev responses on the forums if you want to look for them. At this point you're just splitting hairs over diction and phraseology, what matters is that ZOS does not deem this a bug or exploit and has not plans to change it.

I did look for them. And they all say it is unintended, and not a single one says "they approve of animation cancelling and see it as emergent gameplay". Animation canceling ruins the emersion of combat. Instead of parrying and fighting, it just a button mash.

Typo, or were you perhaps confused by my use of the word 'emergent'? I'm not calling it immersive gameplay, if that's what you thought.

e·mer·gent
əˈmərjənt/
adjective
1. in the process of coming into being or becoming prominent.

Nope not a typo. Two different words being used differently.

SirAndy

Crown wrote: »

Why even bother to automate a purge if you can just remove debuffs from your toon like that..

@Crown The purge was just an example. There's a host of other possibilities.
Just FYI, that was also how the "teleport" hack was accomplished right after the PC launch. The source code for that is still available online if you know where to look.

ZOS's decision to ignore the "never trust the client" mantra really came back to bite them big time back then. Took them weeks to figure out how to fix something that should have never been there in the first place.

Xexpo

Soris wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Redtalon Scripting auto key presses to cleanse/purge is not something that can be macro'ed using normal software (such as Razer). That would require an addon to do the work for you and is very different from what we're discussing here.

@Crown
You don't need an AddOn for that, you can (fairly easily) do that with 3rd party software ...

He was responding about an ability being auto pressed depending on whether or not the character was debuffed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something like that existed we would already have damage meters using the same concept. Forget about the fact that such a thing would be really impractical since you want to have control over your character at all times, and not just have your character overriding your own actions to respond to a set of rules at all times. In PvE such a thing would just be botting, and in pvp it would be a free kill :P

Exactly. This is more like a script which presses buttons automaticly if certain conditions are met whether you want or not. In this case, it can kill you since you cant control your character.

A small set of macro is not like this since you activate it each time at your will. And that's only for animation cancelling -half a second long- not a huge lines of abilities or repetitive like bots.
Imagine a stamina dk player with s/b la-puncture-bash spam build with this macro @Crown

It's a real thing.
It may only be saving .3-.6 seconds or whatever
but, it's perfect every time.
( Even attention starved cats can't mess it up. )

That being said,
if you use combat macros in ESO , you are bad and should feel bad.

Galalin

Mumyo wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Why is it every single post you make i find myself saying the same dam thing? you clown do you understand and single part of this game in any way shape or form?

Macros are very unreliable unless to space the gaps between skills so big that they are pointless... the lag and delays in the game make using macros a slight increase for weak player and a hindrance to the good players... seeing how you don't understand this i would assume your the latter. If you increase the macro functions speed every little hiccup in the server will screw you over... this is a total l2p issue. I animation cancel without macros... and its far more effective. Have i tried to use a macro... not going to lie but it lasted for about 30 min trying to make it work remotely as good as i can do it not using one... complete waste of time to macro unless you are unskilled in which case will give you a minimal improvement... the funny thing is most ppl don't macro are the ones being accused because the ppl using macros suck.


DK SCRUB OUT

Teargrants

Galalin wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Why is it every single post you make i find myself saying the same dam thing? you clown do you understand and single part of this game in any way shape or form?

Macros are very unreliable unless to space the gaps between skills so big that they are pointless... the lag and delays in the game make using macros a slight increase for weak player and a hindrance to the good players... seeing how you don't understand this i would assume your the latter. If you increase the macro functions speed every little hiccup in the server will screw you over... this is a total l2p issue. I animation cancel without macros... and its far more effective. Have i tried to use a macro... not going to lie but it lasted for about 30 min trying to make it work remotely as good as i can do it not using one... complete waste of time to macro unless you are unskilled in which case will give you a minimal improvement... the funny thing is most ppl don't macro are the ones being accused because the ppl using macros suck.


DK SCRUB OUT

Don't lie, you macro your 'DK scrub' to every post. Srsly man, sooo reporting you.

Galalin

Teargrants wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Macros don't let you cast anything faster, in fact, they're usually much slower than actual human speed. So. L2P.

LOL, ever heard of animation cancelling? Guess not.

U clown!

Why is it every single post you make i find myself saying the same dam thing? you clown do you understand and single part of this game in any way shape or form?

Macros are very unreliable unless to space the gaps between skills so big that they are pointless... the lag and delays in the game make using macros a slight increase for weak player and a hindrance to the good players... seeing how you don't understand this i would assume your the latter. If you increase the macro functions speed every little hiccup in the server will screw you over... this is a total l2p issue. I animation cancel without macros... and its far more effective. Have i tried to use a macro... not going to lie but it lasted for about 30 min trying to make it work remotely as good as i can do it not using one... complete waste of time to macro unless you are unskilled in which case will give you a minimal improvement... the funny thing is most ppl don't macro are the ones being accused because the ppl using macros suck.


DK SCRUB OUT

Don't lie, you macro your 'DK scrub' to every post. Srsly man, sooo reporting you.

Lol truth be told i don't even macro that.... i type it each and evey time

DK SCRUB OUT

IxSTALKERxI

Wall repair macro OP.

Erock25

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is legitimate? Sweet, tomorrow I'm going to win the Grand Prix, I'll just cancel the animation of me driving the car.

This is the post of the year right here.

Ezareth

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

Ishammael

Ezareth wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

I tried to use it once in the store. Awful.

Erock25

Ezareth wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

My thumb is quite normal, even a bit large and unruly, and I managed on a Naga just fine for years and now use



It takes a bit to get used to but you can basically keep your thumb in one spot and just by angling it a bit while pressing down you can hit whatever button you want.

Maulkin

I'm using this and I fecking love it for ESO. 5 skills + 1 ultimate fitting perfectly on the side and they are big and far apart enough that I never press the wrong button.

Razer Hex

Xexpo

Ezareth wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

Wow , what an utterly sexist and racist comment, topped off with confirmed rage potato-ness.
Forum hat-trick!

Bezilar

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm using this and I fecking love it for ESO. 5 skills + 1 ultimate fitting perfectly on the side and they are big and far apart enough that I never press the wrong button.

Razer Hex

Blinxey Endorsed (L2M)

FriedEggSandwich

Soris wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

The moral of the story is, stop crying about "macros are bad". Understand what the technology is, how it works, and what it's used for. If you want to cry about people who apparently chain macros to get multiple skills off without having to hit the buttons, that's really a "learn to play" issue. If an opponent hits you with a salvo of one skill after the other, roll, put up a shield, hit them back, cc them, do something. If you're just going to whine and complain, then all that you're going to get from your peers is contempt.

So you're saying one person using one single button to chain command 3 buttons, and the other guy manually pressing all 3 buttons as the way it is supposed to be, and you call that l2p issue? /facepalm

Macros dont make bad players to be any good, right. But they give advantages when a skilled player use them. And they arent slow like some of you said.They dont require 3.5 seconds to get off. Where did you see that?
If you adjust them right, they work perfectly clear and fast. So what the hell are you talking about seriously, dont defend this ***.

And btw, you dont need to pay 500 bucks for 12 buttons Razer mouse. Even cheap ones are more than enough.

500 bucks? My naga cost £50 from amazon. I love it with all my heart. I even bought one for my brother who is a macbook user. He loves his naga with all his heart too. Clicking the little buttons is more satisfying that popping bubble-wrap.

Ezareth wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

Razer naga user here, male, Caucasian, 5'11" with fairly large hands. It's a great mouse but did take a few weeks to get used to. The hardest part to get used to was just having the buttons always there under my resting thumb without pressing them by accident. Don't notice it now though. You have to actually put some effort into getting used to something, like wearing a wrist watch; it will feel uncomfortable and unatural for a couple of weeks bit then just becomes part of you. I'm no razer fanboy; I think their products are plasticky, overpriced and unreliable. The naga 2014 is an exception though. It's a work of genius imo.

Manoekin

kaer426 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

luv my razer. 140 KB's yesterday, and some nasty tells

The sad part is I actually bought that mouse at 2AM at Walmart because I rage-smashed my beloved GX9 when I died to a weapon swap delay. It was the only damn mouse they had that wasn't a throwaway and to date I haven't used a single side button. It is the most uncomfortable and annoying mouse I've ever owned but I keep using it as penance for my lack of control.

If people are able to play the game by clicking the buttons on that mouse they are either female, or have a tiny or malformed thumb, I swear it was designed for Asians and Koreans that I could probably pick up with one arm by palming their skull.

Wow , what an utterly sexist and racist comment, topped off with confirmed rage potato-ness.
Forum hat-trick!

Right on queue, the forum White Knight!

I don't think he's necessarily wrong anyway. I don't understand how people play with those mice either, but that 6 button one looks pretty nice.