Shield Breaker needs to go

Talcyndl · October 2015

LegendaryChef wrote: »

shields are sorcs main defence and that's a fact.

And the effectiveness of that "defense" is the issue. As we have discussed in numerous threads, the issue is that huge damage shields, that are spammable, combined with mobility and dps creates a vastly unbalanced PvP class/build.

Garion · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

shields are sorcs main defence and that's a fact.

And the effectiveness of that "defense" is the issue. As we have discussed in numerous threads, the issue is that huge damage shields, that are spammable, combined with mobility and dps creates a vastly unbalanced PvP class/build.

If anyone thinks that sorcs are OP this patch then they need to L2P

CP5 · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

shields are sorcs main defence and that's a fact.

And the effectiveness of that "defense" is the issue. As we have discussed in numerous threads, the issue is that huge damage shields, that are spammable, combined with mobility and dps creates a vastly unbalanced PvP class/build.

Sorc's as a class only have the one shield, DK's have more damage shields (2). The huge shields you see are a combination of ward, annulment, and healing ward. Have you tried killing a decent magicka nb who has healing ward slotted? It all comes back to a player using healing ward then defending that ward until the heal goes off.

LegendaryChef · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

@Talcyndl maybe it was not clear but i said in this thread something like "For Shield Breaker, while we have a very balanced shield mecanic, the set shall give, instead of giving damage through the shields, it can give "100% more damage on shields with any attack (10s cooldown)". It can break shields effectively, as its name suggest."

Even that would not be very effective against shield stacking sorcs with 20-30K spammable shields and bolt escape.

My hardened ward + Harness = 17k. Sometimes to be honest I only use hardened so thats a 10k shield.
Bolt escape also got nerfed and stacks! If your gona jump on to blow off steam about sorcs then thats fine! But at least come with a valid argument and some actual figures.

Nafirian · October 2015

LegendaryChef wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

@Talcyndl maybe it was not clear but i said in this thread something like "For Shield Breaker, while we have a very balanced shield mecanic, the set shall give, instead of giving damage through the shields, it can give "100% more damage on shields with any attack (10s cooldown)". It can break shields effectively, as its name suggest."

Even that would not be very effective against shield stacking sorcs with 20-30K spammable shields and bolt escape.

My hardened ward + Harness = 17k. Sometimes to be honest I only use hardened so thats a 10k shield.
Bolt escape also got nerfed and stacks! If your gona jump on to blow off steam about sorcs then thats fine! But at least come with a valid argument and some actual figures.

Apply rip to rekt area

rokrdt05 · October 2015

I usually try and stay off the shield breaker threads because a lot of what is said falls on deaf ears, however I feel I need to add my experience with this set.

I have tried several builds, dueled many great and bad players alike using shield breaker attempting to find a way to counter the set.

Let me clear some finer points:

Those that believe sorcs are still getting 20K+ shields? Wrong depending on your build.

Hardened Ward is averaging 10K for most sorcs.
Harness/Dampen is another 10K roughly.

The difference? Anyone using shield breaker is 99% chance they are a stamina build and would only be hindered in damage to the Hardened Ward. Harness/Dampen having no hindrance on damage mitigation to the sorcs health bar. Those 20K shields only affect magicka users or magic damage based abilities.

Power Surge was given the magicka version of this ability and the stronger morph given to stamina sorcs. Meaning that the heal proc chance is 40% of the damage done versus the 60% the stam version gets. Couple that with the Battle Spirit debuff and this heal is just awful and/or non existent (enough to not matter).

Let's also compare Vigor and Springs.

Vigor is a 5 sec hot that can be casted from stealth without breaking and is instant cast without having to be targeted while being more cost efficient.

Healing Springs (cheaper morph) is a 3 sec hot that DOES break stealth, must be ground targeted slightly longer animation and less cost efficient than vigor.

The stam version has the much better morph especially coupled with a stam NB who goes stealth to avoid further damage and heals up before going back in.

Let's also talk about Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration. Both high cost abilities, BoR giving a larger heal and CP giving minor beserk. The heals are laughable at best and must be spammed in order to feel like you've done anything to your health bar.

Let's also talk about Mutagen and Rapid Regen... Both decent hots, but very minor in the grand scheme of things.

I could use all of these abilities on a "healing bar" and spend the majority of the fight healing and lose the resource battle.

I've tried different combinations of heals and gear going from a heavy armor sorc with no shield (as a magicka user). That was a joke... to mixing it up and going 2 Heavy 5 Light with one shield (current set up).

Let me put it this way, my fights with people using shield breaker favor the fight heavily towards the shield breaker with a K/D ration averaging 3/7. Meaning against GOOD pvpers I will die 7 out of 10 times. Yes I understand that the casuals have this set as well and they are joke, but even then the fight can get iffy. Stamina users have some amazing dps that can eat my shield with no issues... couple that with this set and they are always hitting my health bar no matter what... I can use every heal in the game and not out heal the damage. My only hope is to put some pressure on and hope the hots can keep up. Templars I generally have no issues with, NB's give me a lot of issues because of cloak, and stam DK's? Forget about it. Spam reflect and light attacks and you win.

The 1 times I was able to beat a stam DK was with both pets and lots of heals... all he had to do was hit reflect and my spammables effective was curse and my execute?

@TheBull has seen me duel good players with shield breaker with various set ups and can confirm that there really is no viable option.

@Acts is another sorc that has tested multiple set ups and runs into the same issues.

This is not a QQ post, but more on the lines that this set is broken in it's current state and should be adjusted with some of the fixes that people have suggested. There also does need to be an effective Magicka counter to shields or some balance placed on them... and yes I know many will say there is an L2P issue, but there isn't. It's a lack of counters and/or fixes to this set.

/endrant

Soulac · October 2015

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I usually try and stay off the shield breaker threads because a lot of what is said falls on deaf ears, however I feel I need to add my experience with this set.

I have tried several builds, dueled many great and bad players alike using shield breaker attempting to find a way to counter the set.

Let me clear some finer points:

Those that believe sorcs are still getting 20K+ shields? Wrong depending on your build.

Hardened Ward is averaging 10K for most sorcs.
Harness/Dampen is another 10K roughly.

The difference? Anyone using shield breaker is 99% chance they are a stamina build and would only be hindered in damage to the Hardened Ward. Harness/Dampen having no hindrance on damage mitigation to the sorcs health bar. Those 20K shields only affect magicka users or magic damage based abilities.

Power Surge was given the magicka version of this ability and the stronger morph given to stamina sorcs. Meaning that the heal proc chance is 40% of the damage done versus the 60% the stam version gets. Couple that with the Battle Spirit debuff and this heal is just awful and/or non existent (enough to not matter).

Let's also compare Vigor and Springs.

Vigor is a 5 sec hot that can be casted from stealth without breaking and is instant cast without having to be targeted while being more cost efficient.

Healing Springs (cheaper morph) is a 3 sec hot that DOES break stealth, must be ground targeted slightly longer animation and less cost efficient than vigor.

The stam version has the much better morph especially coupled with a stam NB who goes stealth to avoid further damage and heals up before going back in.

Let's also talk about Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration. Both high cost abilities, BoR giving a larger heal and CP giving minor beserk. The heals are laughable at best and must be spammed in order to feel like you've done anything to your health bar.

Let's also talk about Mutagen and Rapid Regen... Both decent hots, but very minor in the grand scheme of things.

I could use all of these abilities on a "healing bar" and spend the majority of the fight healing and lose the resource battle.

I've tried different combinations of heals and gear going from a heavy armor sorc with no shield (as a magicka user). That was a joke... to mixing it up and going 2 Heavy 5 Light with one shield (current set up).

Let me put it this way, my fights with people using shield breaker favor the fight heavily towards the shield breaker with a K/D ration averaging 3/7. Meaning against GOOD pvpers I will die 7 out of 10 times. Yes I understand that the casuals have this set as well and they are joke, but even then the fight can get iffy. Stamina users have some amazing dps that can eat my shield with no issues... couple that with this set and they are always hitting my health bar no matter what... I can use every heal in the game and not out heal the damage. My only hope is to put some pressure on and hope the hots can keep up. Templars I generally have no issues with, NB's give me a lot of issues because of cloak, and stam DK's? Forget about it. Spam reflect and light attacks and you win.

The 1 times I was able to beat a stam DK was with both pets and lots of heals... all he had to do was hit reflect and my spammables effective was curse and my execute?

@TheBull has seen me duel good players with shield breaker with various set ups and can confirm that there really is no viable option.

@Acts is another sorc that has tested multiple set ups and runs into the same issues.

This is not a QQ post, but more on the lines that this set is broken in it's current state and should be adjusted with some of the fixes that people have suggested. There also does need to be an effective Magicka counter to shields or some balance placed on them... and yes I know many will say there is an L2P issue, but there isn't. It's a lack of counters and/or fixes to this set.

/endrant

Healings Springs stacks and Vigor doesn´t.
My Vigor inside cyrodiils heals around 1k per second, that´s not much more than any other HoT.
You can´t spam it.. it won´t get more heal no matter how often you cast it.

rokrdt05 · October 2015

Soulac wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

I usually try and stay off the shield breaker threads because a lot of what is said falls on deaf ears, however I feel I need to add my experience with this set.

I have tried several builds, dueled many great and bad players alike using shield breaker attempting to find a way to counter the set.

Let me clear some finer points:

Those that believe sorcs are still getting 20K+ shields? Wrong depending on your build.

Hardened Ward is averaging 10K for most sorcs.
Harness/Dampen is another 10K roughly.

The difference? Anyone using shield breaker is 99% chance they are a stamina build and would only be hindered in damage to the Hardened Ward. Harness/Dampen having no hindrance on damage mitigation to the sorcs health bar. Those 20K shields only affect magicka users or magic damage based abilities.

Power Surge was given the magicka version of this ability and the stronger morph given to stamina sorcs. Meaning that the heal proc chance is 40% of the damage done versus the 60% the stam version gets. Couple that with the Battle Spirit debuff and this heal is just awful and/or non existent (enough to not matter).

Let's also compare Vigor and Springs.

Vigor is a 5 sec hot that can be casted from stealth without breaking and is instant cast without having to be targeted while being more cost efficient.

Healing Springs (cheaper morph) is a 3 sec hot that DOES break stealth, must be ground targeted slightly longer animation and less cost efficient than vigor.

The stam version has the much better morph especially coupled with a stam NB who goes stealth to avoid further damage and heals up before going back in.

Let's also talk about Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration. Both high cost abilities, BoR giving a larger heal and CP giving minor beserk. The heals are laughable at best and must be spammed in order to feel like you've done anything to your health bar.

Let's also talk about Mutagen and Rapid Regen... Both decent hots, but very minor in the grand scheme of things.

I could use all of these abilities on a "healing bar" and spend the majority of the fight healing and lose the resource battle.

I've tried different combinations of heals and gear going from a heavy armor sorc with no shield (as a magicka user). That was a joke... to mixing it up and going 2 Heavy 5 Light with one shield (current set up).

Let me put it this way, my fights with people using shield breaker favor the fight heavily towards the shield breaker with a K/D ration averaging 3/7. Meaning against GOOD pvpers I will die 7 out of 10 times. Yes I understand that the casuals have this set as well and they are joke, but even then the fight can get iffy. Stamina users have some amazing dps that can eat my shield with no issues... couple that with this set and they are always hitting my health bar no matter what... I can use every heal in the game and not out heal the damage. My only hope is to put some pressure on and hope the hots can keep up. Templars I generally have no issues with, NB's give me a lot of issues because of cloak, and stam DK's? Forget about it. Spam reflect and light attacks and you win.

The 1 times I was able to beat a stam DK was with both pets and lots of heals... all he had to do was hit reflect and my spammables effective was curse and my execute?

@TheBull has seen me duel good players with shield breaker with various set ups and can confirm that there really is no viable option.

@Acts is another sorc that has tested multiple set ups and runs into the same issues.

This is not a QQ post, but more on the lines that this set is broken in it's current state and should be adjusted with some of the fixes that people have suggested. There also does need to be an effective Magicka counter to shields or some balance placed on them... and yes I know many will say there is an L2P issue, but there isn't. It's a lack of counters and/or fixes to this set.

/endrant

Healings Springs stacks and Vigor doesn´t.
My Vigor inside cyrodiils heals around 1k per second, that´s not much more than any other HoT.
You can´t spam it.. it won´t get more heal no matter how often you cast it.

This may be true, but you get the benefit at most 2 stacks as it is still extremely clunky to use. I've seen some stam users who get way more than a 1k tick.

Derra · October 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

You can outheal the damage. Blessing of restoration + rapid regen is enough to outheal it with some CP into increased healing.

If you're facing multiple players? Well, ZOS don't want 1vX.

Once someone uses healdebuffs you need purge also. Three extra abilities addet to normal defense spells just to counter the set. Nice one.

Master_Kas · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

You can outheal the damage. Blessing of restoration + rapid regen is enough to outheal it with some CP into increased healing.

If you're facing multiple players? Well, ZOS don't want 1vX.

Once someone uses healdebuffs you need purge also. Three extra abilities addet to normal defense spells just to counter the set. Nice one.

What can nbs do to counter a pot ? Try to run away. You didn't read the rest of my posts?

That I hate it on my magicka builds. It is enough to outheal the damage from 1 shieldbreak spammer. Didn't say anything about how its balanced or not to have to slot them.

Ezareth · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Personally, being a Sorc and all, I of course am not the biggest fan of the set (Cpt Obvious).

I've kinda learned to live with it. I don't really mind the melee damage (unless it's coming from a DK) but the ranged with the bow.

Speaking of the DK... a stamina S&B DK with Shield Breaker and good sustain both magicka and stamina wise is the hard counter to almost any Sorc build:
- Very strong physical damage with double anim cancel (la+skill+bash) and the only phys dmg ultimate (Take Flight)
- Shield Breaker bypassing shields
- Reverberating Bash cutting whatever pitiful heals you have
- Scales reflecting all your hard hitters.

Hell, I'm leveling one myself

Well they´re basically hardcountering every ranged build available while having the best stamina sustain in the game if redguard...
For dueling there is no better class to be found.

Which is why I'm leveling a Redguard Stamina DK.

Maulkin The Rastafarian is coming like a wrecking ball

*cough* fotm *cough*

I know, I know

I need a break from the Sorc man, I've been Sorcing for 90% of the time for the last 14 months. Went from rank 1 to rank 33 playing solo.

I brought up that manablade for a bit of variety. It's super strong, especially in IC, but pressing that Cloak button every 2" is not for me it seems. I know it's not much different on Sorc applying shields all the time, but it's a preference thing.

I prefer being in peoples faces than weaving in and out of view constantly. I prefer having them screaming "Focus that fecking Sorc!" than "Where is that fecking NB?". I think, being a Sorc yourself, you know what I mean.

Also, I'm keen to try my first stam build. I think it'll make me see some things from a different PoV too.

No reason to go DK when you can go NB and do everything better...without cloak.

I just don't understand how people are having issues with this set unless they're fighting 2 or more players with it or something.

People can't counter this in a 1 v 1? And what are you doing while this player is spamming light attacks at you? Are you use degeneration? Power Surge? Tri-stats? Any of these things will counter 3-4 seconds of shield breaker spam while you're doing far more damage to the other player.

If you cant do more than 4K DPS to another player spamming you with light attacks then you're doing it wrong. Every time they cast or do anything they're not attack you. This is where dodge roll becomes more useful.

I'm just not seeing it.

Lucky28 · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

Talking about changing the SB set without addressing the problem of 20-30K damage shields is silly. If you want to change (or remove) the set what is your solution to deal with Sorcs who were basically unkillable because of their combination of high damage shields and mobility.

There is not really much of an issue with damage shields, they give us survivability, shield stacking sorcs aren't unkillable Shield stacking plus bolt is where the issue was. however look at the champion systems how many areas are the there to reduce the damage you take from Magicka builds?. Now, how many area's are there to reduce the damage you take from stamina builds?. yeah, the champion system favors Stamina and the only real mitigation it offers is bastion.

however, even putting that aside. removing shield stacking wouldn't hurt the players who shield stack (and who are considered the problem) near as much as it would hurt the newer players who don't have much CP. I speak from experience on that score.

Mumyo · October 2015

Other solution, redesign sorc since its so boring anyway... they all look the same, play the same and so on.

Acts · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

People can't counter this in a 1 v 1? And what are you doing while this player is spamming light attacks at you? Are you use degeneration? Power Surge? Tri-stats? Any of these things will counter 3-4 seconds of shield breaker spam while you're doing far more damage to the other player.

If you cant do more than 4K DPS to another player spamming you with light attacks then you're doing it wrong. Every time they cast or do anything they're not attack you. This is where dodge roll becomes more useful.

I'm just not seeing it.

In the 1v1 tests I have have ran, Which are 1v1 situations, Shield breaker will come out ontop.

What really makes this set OP is when a NB can Weave 8k Surprise attacks with the light attacks and throw in an Ulti.
That cannot be outhealed or Mitigated.
You cannot do anything against a Strong player who does this.

You cannot out pressure them when There Heals with Vigor and Rally can Out heal Most Sorc Builds DPS, while still being able to do massive damage and even CC with Fear.

Talcyndl · October 2015

Garion wrote: »

If anyone thinks that sorcs are OP this patch then they need to L2P

Well this patch has the SB set - which according to this thread people want to nerf/remove.

Talcyndl · October 2015

LegendaryChef wrote: »

My hardened ward + Harness = 17k. Sometimes to be honest I only use hardened so thats a 10k shield.
Bolt escape also got nerfed and stacks! If your gona jump on to blow off steam about sorcs then thats fine! But at least come with a valid argument and some actual figures.

I routinely see 20-30K shields on sorcs.

And despite the escalating cost of bolt escape, the sorcs I see on the populated NA servers have no problem using it enough to disengage to recast their shields.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

Ppl saying sorcerers have viable heals and don't need shields for survivabilty lol roll a sorc and duel me with that sorc and see if those "heals" are useful at all. Let's not get into an argument over how the class is designed. Shields are our main source of survivabilty with supplemental healing from passives and a couple skill that sound good in theory but are terrible in practice. Giving players a set that literally bipasses our main defensive mechanic because players a about not being able to drain a Sorcs stam and burst when a sorc can't cc or apply dots to eat the shields while you do a
Your dps rotation sounds like a L2P issue with everyone else not Sorcs. There were plenty of ways to deal with Sorcs shields besides just handing players a set that does damage through our shields and profs other abilities. If shields really were OP and more effective than intended the most simple solution is to lower the shields capacity and or increase the cost and or make them crit able.

k2blader · October 2015

The shields nerf affected the underpowered/low CP'd shield users-- NOT the shield users who can and will still make others' blood boil. Too bad people forget this when they start yammering about additional ways to nerf shields or the sorc class if they are honest.

[edit]
My Hardened Ward is ~8k with food. If you think that is somehow too much shield, not sure what to say. lol

Lucky28 · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

My hardened ward + Harness = 17k. Sometimes to be honest I only use hardened so thats a 10k shield.
Bolt escape also got nerfed and stacks! If your gona jump on to blow off steam about sorcs then thats fine! But at least come with a valid argument and some actual figures.

I routinely see 20-30K shields on sorcs.

And despite the escalating cost of bolt escape, the sorcs I see on the populated NA servers have no problem using it enough to disengage to recast their shields.

And?. Yesterday i ran into a Stamina DK who i couldn't catch even while using boundless storm plus streak. i got over it.

BrassRazoo · October 2015

Here's my two cents worth.

I will qualify firstly that I don't really care anymore as I have pretty much left this game. Been around since beta and just can't be bothered anymore.

This set is really designed to force Sorcerers to not be Sorcerers anymore.

Firstly to be effective, Sorcerers need to wear light armour and stack Magicka, simple as that.
This causes two problems, a low health pool and low resistances to both physical and magical damage.
This is the reason why we were given shields in the first place, to be able to wear the required equipment but still survive.

Shield breaker counters this. If we use shields we get damage to out already low health pool, if we don't use shields, wearing light armour, we also then get damage to our low health pool.

So basically all this set does, if you plan on countering it, is make Sorcerers weaker and or easier to kill, period.
Even if you come across someone without shield breaker you still may think twice before casting a shield, it's not as if they have a sign on their head saying "don't use shields, I have shield breaker!"

It's a die if I do die if I don't situation.

Sure, I can put points into Health and wear Heavy Armour but why? Just so I can survive an extra second or two?
If I do, sure, I'll survive, but as a Magic user I won't be killing anyone.
Most of the passives for Sorcerers come from Magicka and Light Armour, and they inturn increase our damage or magic recovery, so now I have to lose them as well.

This set does a lot more damage just by being in the game not just by someone possibly wearing.

Anyway, that's about it for me. Enjoy your arguing and complaining, I'm off.

Mr_Nobody · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

You can outheal the damage. Blessing of restoration + rapid regen is enough to outheal it with some CP into increased healing.

If you're facing multiple players? Well, ZOS don't want 1vX.

Once someone uses healdebuffs you need purge also. Three extra abilities addet to normal defense spells just to counter the set. Nice one.

Thats what all magicka templars use to PvP since we were not given the pleasure to use a good class based damage shield. Considering the amount of times i spam the BoL button, i would take equivalent strength blazing shield of hardened ward. Even if it was with 6 second duration. The idea of shields negating execute damage and crits and denying damage before its done is worth alot. Sorcs just want it the easy way.

Galalin · October 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

shields are sorcs main defence and that's a fact.

And the effectiveness of that "defense" is the issue. As we have discussed in numerous threads, the issue is that huge damage shields, that are spammable, combined with mobility and dps creates a vastly unbalanced PvP class/build.

Sorc's as a class only have the one shield, DK's have more damage shields (2). The huge shields you see are a combination of ward, annulment, and healing ward. Have you tried killing a decent magicka nb who has healing ward slotted? It all comes back to a player using healing ward then defending that ward until the heal goes off.

Are you seriously comparing DK shields to that of sorc shield stacking and claiming DK have more shields? you gonna sit here and say a DK can produce a higher shield than a sorc?

and if your not saying that then wth would you even make that comment?

DK SCRUB OUT

Talcyndl · October 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

And?. Yesterday i ran into a Stamina DK who i couldn't catch even while using boundless storm plus streak. i got over it.

Did he run away enough to cast [another] 20K damage shield, so he could turn around at his advantage to reengage you?

Lucky28 · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

And?. Yesterday i ran into a Stamina DK who i couldn't catch even while using boundless storm plus streak. i got over it.

Did he run away enough to cast [another] 20K damage shield, so he could turn around at his advantage to reengage you?

if you chased him to the point where he managed to turn the situation in his favor, then that's on you, that was your mistake, he outplayed you.

LegendaryChef · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

LegendaryChef wrote: »

My hardened ward + Harness = 17k. Sometimes to be honest I only use hardened so thats a 10k shield.
Bolt escape also got nerfed and stacks! If your gona jump on to blow off steam about sorcs then thats fine! But at least come with a valid argument and some actual figures.

I routinely see 20-30K shields on sorcs.

And despite the escalating cost of bolt escape, the sorcs I see on the populated NA servers have no problem using it enough to disengage to recast their shields.

The biggest sorc shield stack i have seen in this patch was when i got emp last week and the shield got to about 28k.

You get the odd sorcs that seem to think that its worth their time of day and magicka stacking on the healing ward at 100% health which might only be worth like 2k of a shield. Unless many of the sorcs you have seen happen to be running the 3 shields and barrier at the same time i really struggle to believe you can get much higher than 20k even with 100 points into my favourite tree, Bastion.

Also for streaking away, all it takes is 1 stamina build to throw a little dagger in your back and your slowed to walking speed and the rest of them just catch you. Then i streak again, say goodbye to about half my magicka pool and the group catch up and im sitting with 10% magicka.

Ezareth · October 2015

Acts wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

People can't counter this in a 1 v 1? And what are you doing while this player is spamming light attacks at you? Are you use degeneration? Power Surge? Tri-stats? Any of these things will counter 3-4 seconds of shield breaker spam while you're doing far more damage to the other player.

If you cant do more than 4K DPS to another player spamming you with light attacks then you're doing it wrong. Every time they cast or do anything they're not attack you. This is where dodge roll becomes more useful.

I'm just not seeing it.

In the 1v1 tests I have have ran, Which are 1v1 situations, Shield breaker will come out ontop.

What really makes this set OP is when a NB can Weave 8k Surprise attacks with the light attacks and throw in an Ulti.
That cannot be outhealed or Mitigated.
You cannot do anything against a Strong player who does this.

You cannot out pressure them when There Heals with Vigor and Rally can Out heal Most Sorc Builds DPS, while still being able to do massive damage and even CC with Fear.

So you are being Melee to death by a nightblade running this? Makes zero sense to me. I guess I just have to run into a good nightblade using it. It seems to me that people are just stuck on the whole max shield, no other defense meta who are having problems here. The suprise attack damage is hitting the shield, as is the ulti. The only thing hitting behind your shields is shield breaker which is 2K a second at best(since using a SA weave).

Mines heal you for close to 1K and there is 5 of them that NB should be eating while he's attacking you. Then if he is SAing your face he's going to be eating fragments or overload and if degen procs or I get a crit I'm at 100% health again. I'd love to see a NB out DPS my overload while trying to heal himself.

Talcyndl · October 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

if you chased him to the point where he managed to turn the situation in his favor, then that's on you, that was your mistake, he outplayed you.

Didn't say I chased him. That's the point...the sorc can control the engagement with high defense, mobility and [ranged] dps. The SB set, as is, provides a counter in some situations. Remove it (or nerf it into uselessness) and you have to address the imbalance.

LegendaryChef · October 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

if you chased him to the point where he managed to turn the situation in his favor, then that's on you, that was your mistake, he outplayed you.

Didn't say I chased him. That's the point...the sorc can control the engagement with high defense, mobility and [ranged] dps. The SB set, as is, provides a counter in some situations. Remove it (or nerf it into uselessness) and you have to address the imbalance.

So just to be 100% clear, you don't think there is anything wrong with SB in its current state?

Xsorus · October 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

So...all you naysayers, how exactly is sorc supposed to "adapt"? Like do you have any concrete suggestions beyond "stop relying on shields haha"?

Let's see, normal circumstances:

- Shield Breaker proc is ~2k (ignoring Battle Spirit 50% reduction, btw).
- The only large heal I have is Healing Ward which being a shield, means I effectively cannot heal myself with someone spamming Shield Breaker light attacks on me.
- The only way to deal with a Shield Breaker bot is to go full dps on it or run away immediately. Encouraging people to run away from fights isn't something I think ZOS should be doing.
- And let's not forget that Shield Breaker procs can also proc Expert Hunter procs which also ignore your shield and directly hit your health. Please spare me the claims of this being balanced/OK, after months of stam users complaining about skills hitting through dodge roll. This is the same thing, damage ignoring a primary defensive mechanic.
- Oh and you thought that was it? Haha no, Shield Breaker also procs on Harness Magicka even though it doesn't block physical damage to begin with! I can have Harness Magicka up, and someone can start spamming Shield Breaker light attacks one me - I'm stuck taking the full light atk + Shield Breaker dmg on my health for the next 20 seconds. Think about that.

So, let's adapt?

- Reroll to stam sorc?
- Reroll to NB?
- Block the dmg? HAHAHAHAH can't block unresistable damage.
- Don't use shields as a magicka build? Templars can get away with it with their numerous heals (BOL, Purify which is also a purge and removes incoming spell projectiles - even Meteor - because ZOS, Jabs heals and Repentence). NBs have Cloak and Double Take. DKs had GDB, now they're almost as bad off as sorc. Oh and sorc has uhm, nothing viable. Dark Exchange? That's a joke. Clanfear? Suffers the same problem as GDB + cast time. Crit Surge? Entirely RNG dependent and not a sufficient source of heals w/ Battle Spirit. Blood Magic? HAHAHAHA.
- That leaves us with non class heals for sorc. Rapid Regen? Crits for about 1k, you won't out heal Shield Breaker. Combat Prayer? This one will actually outheal Shield Breaker, but you'll basically just be spamming it in between refreshing your shield. At that point, why aren't you just going all out dps on them? Even with this you'll still have to run away if there's other people involved in the fight. Energy Orb? It's uselessly expensive.

So far I'm mostly hearing "stack more into health". What does that do for me when my primary heal (Healing Ward) becomes a non-heal because of Shield Breaker spam, and other heals are pretty much lack luster. If I stack 10k more into health, I can last through 5 more seconds of Shield Breaker spam, yay.

Perhaps this will help the stam builds out there understand the predicament? Let's say you're having an evenly matched 1v1 and I come over and start popping off random light resto attacks at you like a mouth breather and doing nothing else. Does that instantly turn your 1v1 into an "I'm screwed unless I start running away right now or kill the mouth breather" situation? No, it doesn't, does it? Should it though? That's basically what sorcs experience with Shield Breaker.

Unresistable damage through shields is not the way to go as a counterplay to shields. There are so many possibilities for fair alternatives:

- Increased damage on shields.
- Add bleed effect that only damages shields.
- Add a CC effect that procs on people with shields.
- Debuffs that lower the time left before shield expires.
- Debuffs that affect shield users, such as reduced dmg done, reduced healing received, ect.

The Shield Breaker set we have now is simply the embodiment of lazy programming.

A few things teargrant, healing ward is not the only large heal you got, it might be the best one when you consider shield stacking mechanic but it's not the only one. combat prayer for example is very effective for healing.
Also you say Zos shouldn't encourage running from fights, yet you were the first person to defend bolt escape allowing you to run from fights...

Also if you see a bow user, don't pop harness magicka.. As they most likely are using shield breaker.

In the end you defended sorcs for months while posting videos of your sorc tanking multiple people with ease.. Now you have to watch for one set and be on your toes.. Try adapting

I already explained how Combat Prayer holds up you can use it to keep your health up against someone who's just spamming Shield Breaker. But in most situations, it's subpar simply because you have to waste GCDs casting it multiple times for a one time heal that isn't all that big - similar to how GDB is lacking w/ the Battle Spirit debuff.

You're twisting my words about Bolt Escape, I know you know better than that. I never said anything at all the effect of "Bolt Escape lets you run from all the fights, Bolt Escape is fine." I have always been of the position that Bolt Escape didn't need some stupid nerf a la 1.7 infinite stacking cost, because the game is replete with counters to it in the form of gap closers - which all have a greater range than Bolt Escape. And don't tell me you can't keep up w/ a bolting sorc, I'm sure you remember Crit Rushing me non stop all the way from Glade to Aleswell. Or go ahead and ask Ezareth how many times he's chased down sorcs on his stamblade by sprinting after them.

In regards to "The only way to deal with a Shield Breaker bot is to go full dps on it or run away immediately. Encouraging people to run away from fights isn't something I think ZOS should be doing", it means exactly what it says and nothing more. Either I drop the dps on the Shield Breaker or I try to run away. The competent ones use gap closers and the fight continues. It's very similar to the impetus put on NBs to just try and run away for 15 sec when people pop detect pots now, since ZOS removed the ability of Cloak to cause force miss when detected. What happens now when I pop detect pots on NBs? Most of them just try to run away for the duration because their main defensive ability has become useless.

And seeing a bow user? You mean the one that's hiding in stealth 30m away? Very funny.

So wait, you never said bolt escape is fine? You just didn't want it nerfed because you managed to eat crit charge after crit charge because you bolted every time in one direction (and stopped a few times to fight mind you) and you still managed to make it from glade to ales just fine.. Oh and you know how I caught up with you during that fight? By popping a 40 second speed pot and sprinting after you...

Talcyndl · October 2015

LegendaryChef wrote: »

So just to be 100% clear, you don't think there is anything wrong with SB in its current state?

I think the "friendly fire" issue can be annoying - ie, where an ally gives you a shield that ends up killing you.

I also think the SB set was a poor way to attempt to balance too powerful (mostly sorc) shields. But, that being said, I don't feel bad that light armor sorcs are no longer more tanky than heavy armor DKs.