For every guy who likes the change there are twenty or more who do not. If you are for the change post a video so we can see if you do anything more than lack luster basics or invite me to a difficult run and I'll see what you are made of in person . . . then I'll post the video. You want to come on here in favor of the change put your money where your mouth is, developers included. I'm calling all of you types out. Don't be surprised if I invite you in in game.

jakeedmundson wrote: »

I have less than 100 cp... i play on ps4 and have been playing a lot since the release on console...
Since that time... i have been a tank. Always wore heavy armor... used sword and shield... made tank builds.

I had no issues tanking most dungeons if i had the right gear, skills, and rotation. (there was always the occasional death... but hey, that happens)
After this last patch... i tried to keep tanking. My old build didn't work well so i tried new armor sets, new skills, new rotations...
But, i have to say... i cannot try certain builds because i don't pvp... its a huge time dump when i already spend so much time playing pve. I have no time for it... and no interest in it.... which sucks because i cannot get that gear.
Also, i cannot make 9 trait armor/weapons yet... i have 7 or 8 traits for all my gear... still waiting on that 23+ days

BUT... having all of that gear should not completely dictate failure or success in a dungeon. (There should be other sets that still allow someone to get through dungeons)

Because of this 1.7 patch... and the limited access to gear i can obtain... i completely dropped tanking.
I am DPS now. I will not go back to tanking until there are some gear changes and/or skill changes to benefit tanks.

This is the crux of the problem now. The builds between PvP and PvE are too disparate now for the tanker. If you are built to be a tank in pve, even with alternate gear/skills for both pvp and pve, you grossly underperform in pvp. It is just better to go dps in pvp, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling you something because it has actually always been like that. Just because people wore a shield doesn't mean they were a tank. I'm going to hammer this issue til the cows come home because I think it needs to be heard. Mages have magicka. Rogues have Stamina. Warriors have ... what health? hahahah.

Magic damage scales well with magicka and also supplies extreme resiliency to players as well as sustainability. Stamina does the same thing for the rogue (dps weapon builds). The Warrior aka the Knight aka the Tank gets a lifeless stat that neither scales damage nor resiliency,. There is no synergy here and it has gotten worse. Health needs to reduce costs of blocking, rolling, sprinting, bashing, and return more on light and heavy attacks. Health needs to scale/improve the magnitude of shields and the quality of resistance powers. It should also potentially enhance incoming heals. I'm not talking about something overpowered, but I'm talking about something where an all health character, a Warrior is actually viable. Such a character would not spam powers, and would be based more upon his mouse and light attacks, with occassional to moderate usage of abilities. In order for a playstyle (the tank) to be viable, health needs to be more viable. Non-Tanks should not get equal benefit from tanking powers and skills, its that simple. A player who goes all-in on magic should not get greater regen, resiliency, and damage output than someone who goes all in on Health.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

I have less than 100 cp... i play on ps4 and have been playing a lot since the release on console...
Since that time... i have been a tank. Always wore heavy armor... used sword and shield... made tank builds.

I had no issues tanking most dungeons if i had the right gear, skills, and rotation. (there was always the occasional death... but hey, that happens)
After this last patch... i tried to keep tanking. My old build didn't work well so i tried new armor sets, new skills, new rotations...
But, i have to say... i cannot try certain builds because i don't pvp... its a huge time dump when i already spend so much time playing pve. I have no time for it... and no interest in it.... which sucks because i cannot get that gear.
Also, i cannot make 9 trait armor/weapons yet... i have 7 or 8 traits for all my gear... still waiting on that 23+ days

BUT... having all of that gear should not completely dictate failure or success in a dungeon. (There should be other sets that still allow someone to get through dungeons)

Because of this 1.7 patch... and the limited access to gear i can obtain... i completely dropped tanking.
I am DPS now. I will not go back to tanking until there are some gear changes and/or skill changes to benefit tanks.

This is the crux of the problem now. The builds between PvP and PvE are too disparate now for the tanker. If you are built to be a tank in pve, even with alternate gear/skills for both pvp and pve, you grossly underperform in pvp. It is just better to go dps in pvp, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling you something because it has actually always been like that. Just because people wore a shield doesn't mean they were a tank. I'm going to hammer this issue til the cows come home because I think it needs to be heard. Mages have magicka. Rogues have Stamina. Warriors have ... what health? hahahah.

Magic damage scales well with magicka and also supplies extreme resiliency to players as well as sustainability. Stamina does the same thing for the rogue (dps weapon builds). The Warrior aka the Knight aka the Tank gets a lifeless stat that neither scales damage nor resiliency,. There is no synergy here and it has gotten worse. Health needs to reduce costs of blocking, rolling, sprinting, bashing, and return more on light and heavy attacks. Health needs to scale/improve the magnitude of shields and the quality of resistance powers. It should also potentially enhance incoming heals. I'm not talking about something overpowered, but I'm talking about something where an all health character, a Warrior is actually viable. Such a character would not spam powers, and would be based more upon his mouse and light attacks, with occassional to moderate usage of abilities. In order for a playstyle (the tank) to be viable, health needs to be more viable. Non-Tanks should not get equal benefit from tanking powers and skills, its that simple. A player who goes all-in on magic should not get greater regen, resiliency, and damage output than someone who goes all in on Health.

Well said !

as you say....
Magic damage scales well with magicka and also supplies extreme resiliency to players as well as sustainability. Stamina does the same thing for the rogue (dps weapon builds). The Warrior aka the Knight aka the Tank gets a lifeless stat that neither scales damage nor resiliency,. There is no synergy here and it has gotten worse. Health needs to reduce costs of blocking, rolling, sprinting, bashing, and return more on light and heavy attacks. Health needs to scale/improve the magnitude of shields and the quality of resistance powers. It should also potentially enhance incoming heals.

My 2 cents:
If more Magicka and Stamina increase the pool available to do damage AND have damage scaled from the pool, something similar should apply to Health.
Something was mentioned from ZOS that the TTK Time To Kill should increase.... why does that not start with making Health more attractive and add scaling benefits from a bigger Health pool..

a.skelton92 wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

For every guy who likes the change there are twenty or more who do not. If you are for the change post a video so we can see if you do anything more than lack luster basics or invite me to a difficult run and I'll see what you are made of in person . . . then I'll post the video. You want to come on here in favor of the change put your money where your mouth is, developers included. I'm calling all of you types out. Don't be surprised if I invite you in in game.

Once again someone talking a load of s**t and making it out to be fact. "for every guy who likes the change there are twenty or more who do not".. Where did you pull that one out from?.. No actually dont tell me, i can guess.. And no, before you say it; the few randoms in your guild that agree do not add value to your uninformed argument.

On console my friends and guild members have a hard time getting a tank for dungeons... we've been 3 dps'ing regular dungeons because we're tired of waiting for a tank.

I also dropped tanking because it's either
A) too boring play to when you just have to stand there taunting and try not to die and/or lose your resource pool because you taunt, keep up buffs, and try to help with dps or
You can't make the 9 trait gear needed and/or buy the pvp gear that people use to be successful now.

The fact is... histbark and footmans doesn't work well anymore. I've tried...
They do well for regular dungeons... but when you get into vet ones and other high end game material... it's a little ridiculous to work with.

Hmmm....

I think we are all agree that some player having more fun and some player having less fun with the new change.
The number, I think we are all agree we don't know the number.

The only number we have right now is 17 agree from 2.7k view.

"I also wanted the rest of the dissatisfied players to have room to voice their concerns"
This statement is so true, that's why we have a forum, and thank you for initiated this topic.

However, we can't use the "number" because of the same reason:
"dissatisfied players to have room to voice their concerns"
The number of satisfied players in a room for dissatisfied players is not representative at all.

I think ZoS is already aware with many complaint against blocking's stamina regen. They will do their job, good or bad.

---

And yes, I also tanking since the games out. (I also build a blocking tank in one of my 3 tank, so I think my opinion is still relevant in this thread)

I agree no stamina regen is not a good solution or at least it's not a complete solutions, It's not give a content to the devoted tank & team, but at least it's encourage more team playing.
However I feel people's reaction is exaggerated.

The complaint with no stamina regen is: "tanking is easily doable but just not fun, not fun because we no longer can do damage, CC, heal, AoE, etc while tanking... umm, actually we still can do it, but it will make us depends on other and not self sufficient, and that will make us looks bad in team..."

And if you tanking in a lot of MMORPG you'll realize that even now, tanking in ESO is not hard and still luxurious.
A self-sufficient tank that can do Damage, CC, heal, support, while have top tier mitigation (Jack of all trades, master of tanking), i personally think it's not really fit the MMORPG world that encourage teamwork.
Most of the time in many games, the main tank is just do aggro management, positioning, and desperately staying alive and/or protect their team, even when supported with buffer and/or healer and/or secondary/off-tank...
As a main tank become efficient is essential.. Good timing, positioning, and read opponent pattern becomes the habit even for an average main tank.

In ESO we have a self-skill that can provide more than 80% mitigation to all type of attack, from all angle, stack with other defensive thing, no cooldown, can be very low cost, give some cc immunity, still can be healed, and (pre 2.1) activated and deactivated anytime without penalty, only with average investment: 1h&S, 5 heavy, 3 jewelry enchantment, decent stamina regen, 1 slot of slotted passive skill.
Pre 2.1 tank don't really need good timing, positioning, and read opponent pattern, with this skill we don't really need to concern about our survival in a fight, we just block most of the time to survive and do other think between the block like damage, cc, heal, support, etc..

When I do theorycrafting when ESO still beta, I almost don't believe blocking is this good, even templar's sun shield that have far lower resource to mitigation ratio still have penalty of no magicka regen at that time.
Mist form that have similar mitigation makes you can't do anything, can't be healed, and need you to become a vampire that vulnerable to fire & many fighter's guild skill (and now it stopped your magicka regen).
Combine with easy single target aggro management, I think blocking will be too easy for boss tanking...
But when it's go live.. wow, it's true!
With the removal of soft cap (include the stamina regen), the blocking build survival is goes crazy.

Now, just one simple penalty for one method of tanking, for the first time tank need little help from others to survive (maybe, just in some case) ... and for some people the whole world of ESO tanking is crumble.

---

Last, I think Dodgehopper have very good argument:
"Non-Tanks should not get equal benefit from tanking powers and skills"
So, tanks should not get equal benefit from non-tanking power and skills

So, a tanks should focus on tanking, an leave damage, control, support, and heal to their teammates.
With this, specialist build will get better place in team playing than jack of all trades build, even in PvP.

But of course ZoS will really need to redesign many think (and received many complaint) to make this works.
Good luck for them, and for us all...

Hahaha!! What a good title!

posthumecaver wrote: »

Are you really having that much hard time.

Sure I had to change my tanking style, now I am only blocking the heavy hits or my healths go so low that I can give my healer a break and directly go to my 2nd bar to cast Igneous Shield/Dragon Blood while blocking.

For this reason I dedicated gear and CP points to the Magicka Regen/Reduction, when I am above %60 HP I am always casting Shields/Self heals, magicka too low, pop ultimate (dragon leap) get resources, rinse repeat, it feels much more active and fun.

I always run out of magic if i use ing. shield and dragon blood (shield runs out so quick and uses a lot of magic)... i can only get to around 15k magic 30k health 17k stam (using footmans and histbark)
If i replace histbark with seducer... i have survival issues (less health,phys resist, and no dodge)
I have to use hardened armor and dragon blood just to stay alive most of the time. and the stamina you get back from dragon leap isn't nearly enough to help with much for me to keep blocking and taunting groups.

I also dedicated some cp (of my 100) to magicka regen/reduction.... but its not even close to enough.

End game material shouldn't rely on 500+ cp and 9 trait gear... if that's the only way to make a DK worth using as a tank after you hit v16.... then i will probably get bored of the grind and stop playing... i'm guessing many others will end up doing the same.

They really need to give the stamina regen back for PvE at least.. I don't have a lot of experience in the game yet with it but I know it will become a problem the higher I level and the stronger the fights get. I heard before buying the PS4 game that the community was dying but I still wanted to try it out. After reading this thread about nerfing one of the most important roles in the game I can see why it would be dying..

So let's just take it to the next step of nerfing and reduce the regen for our healers as well. That would be fun.

usmcjdking wrote: »

It's a combination of things.

Block nerf speaks for itself. Health doing *** all is another issue that's been addressed here.

Removal of soft caps has lead to out of control healing/DPS (25k average DPS; Breath of Life's healing for 17K+) which has in turn caused developers to make content that hits harder and has more HP to compensate for over healing leaving the poorly scaling tank with almost nothing substantial to add to the team.

Inclusion of massive broken DPS checks I.E. that essentially lock the casual players out of content: enraging flesh Atronachs, CoA gold key once again leaving the poorly scaling tank as little more than dead weight.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't know how to put what i was thinking into words....
That about does it... I dont' know how many dungeons my guild friends can't do on console because of these dps checks.
seems to always come down to champion points lacking or unobtainable gear for casuals.

Anorak wrote: »

When it comes to this I think it is good. All my friends who tank say it is more fun and more of a challenge. 9/10 you are running with a templar healer too as everyone knows they are superior in every way and the sorc nb and dk healers usually go more dps or off heal. I know templar should not have such power but that is the way ZoS has it atm.

Now in terms of needing team support and potions I like that aspect as it MAKES SENSE. 1 dude vs a giant snakes spirit with the power to destroy tamreil good thing his shield is so strong and he is always protected -_- It interesting when the tank calls for a shard when running across vdsa final boss room and the healer throws one as he is full. It shows teamwork and that you help each other and not that the tank is a walking god.

The problem with this is that it further separates the elite players from the casual/average players. Mmos need a casual playerbase to survive. When the game gets so hard that only the very best can beat vet dungeons, then the casuals will just quit and play destiny. A loss of casual playerbase will kill the lifeblood of the game and zos will have no choice but to shut the game down.

PvE Pug tanking is almost dead, nice PvP Nerf ZO$.

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Anorak wrote: »

When it comes to this I think it is good. All my friends who tank say it is more fun and more of a challenge. 9/10 you are running with a templar healer too as everyone knows they are superior in every way and the sorc nb and dk healers usually go more dps or off heal. I know templar should not have such power but that is the way ZoS has it atm.

Now in terms of needing team support and potions I like that aspect as it MAKES SENSE. 1 dude vs a giant snakes spirit with the power to destroy tamreil good thing his shield is so strong and he is always protected -_- It interesting when the tank calls for a shard when running across vdsa final boss room and the healer throws one as he is full. It shows teamwork and that you help each other and not that the tank is a walking god.

The problem with this is that it further separates the elite players from the casual/average players. Mmos need a casual playerbase to survive. When the game gets so hard that only the very best can beat vet dungeons, then the casuals will just quit and play destiny. A loss of casual playerbase will kill the lifeblood of the game and zos will have no choice but to shut the game down.

You take that back....

I will never play destiny! i refuse...i'll go back to D3 before i pull that desperate move.

Lol. Ok, SOME casuals will quit and play destiny. The rest will goto star wars battlefront

That's probably more accurate

Tanks should understand this: No more Ransack+Block siesta.

The game demands these from you: Use your magicka taunt and magicka pool. Think about self-heals, think about dps, think about solutions.

So, Hakeijo says "hello".

jakeedmundson wrote: »

(unless you have the master armor set... then you use the immovable skill from the heavy armor line)

There is a discussion about this, people suppose that evasion from the medium armor is better to slot (%20 dodge chance) then Immovable for Armor Master Set.

I still didn't researched 9-piece craftables so I can't say it is better or not.

nordsavage wrote: »

@bigereard thank you for actually putting thread related input as opposed to @a.skeleton92. You guys need to stop taking what I said "for every one guy there are twenty more" as an exact number. It is like being stuck in heavy traffic and saying its gonna take years to get home at this rate. It is not really going to take years but it sure will take a long time. There may not be one for every twenty against, in my experience it is higher, but the majority are against. Do not forget the many threads filled with players against this change not only after the fact, but before the patch as well. I hope I do not have to explain the "number" again. As for the rest of your comment if I can read through your bad English is that you are for the change. Let us see you post a video tanking Molag Kena in vet mode at v16 or do you stick to simple runs. Anyone with windows 10 can record so lets see it. I was recently asked to replace a tank in that boss fight and the healer could not keep up with healing much less support the tank. Since they were friends I was rotated out in favor of a sorcerer tank to take advantage of the negate glitch. Even with the glitch they went to bed without finishing the dungeon. So the way I see it is taking away individual self reliance was not a good idea as there are too many variables and imbalance in and between classes. Had I not been hobbled by no stamina regen I may have been able to compensate and pull the team through as I had been able to more often in the toughest situations before the update. Why should the tank be co-dependent when the other classes are very much self sufficient. They did not want players hiding behind shields but that's pretty much what it has been twisted into. There is little room for much else compared to before the change at least for stamina prominent builds such what I run. I have an off dps set that I rotate because you cannot always be the tank so I have to balance my stats to do both adequately if not well so I cannot jamb my health up super high like the punching bag builds you see now. A final note on your comments is if you think that it was never a tanks job to do crowd control, healing, supplemental damage and other "support actions" I cannot say I would have considered you a good tank. Good tanks taunted, blocked and cycled continuous peripheral actions of every type as I noted in my main body at the top.

Oh I can assure you that I do not take your drivel for gospel. But I assume you believe there is some element of truth behind your, "for every one guy there are 20 more" comment? Yeah there may not be (as you said it) "20 more". But that is just an exaggeration of the truth and you still believe there is more who dislike than who approve.. It does not matter how many calculations you try and fluff your uninformed argument up with, it does not make it any more credible. Yet again, preaching like a mad man. Your latest input did not add anything. You just continue to believe what you want to believe.. However, this time you added some past experiences in with your argument that mean nothing to anyone except yourself.

Your talking out your arse.