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I used to be a tank like you . . .

nordsavage
nordsavage
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No Stamina regen while blocking is still a bad idea. I have waited a while after the update to write this so it would come from experiencing the change and not seem like a knee jerk reaction. Let us start with the philosophy of it before the mechanics of it. This was done in part to punish PvP players who "perma block". These players have most assuredly shifted into other exploitable avenues so focusing in on that one style of play was pointless. Unless the entire scope of PvP was going to be adjusted this was just biased. Then we have the PvE aspect. Yes there were some tanks that only block but there are healers who only heal and Dps that only damage. Only the tank is truly being penalized.

Now for what is wrong with it mechanically. The foundation of tanking is taunting and blocking to keep the enemies off the other players. For the most part if you were to tag all the enemies and block them at the same time you run out of stamina. This reduction in functionality limits peripheral actions such as crowd control, buffing/debuffing, supplemental Dps and heals. More so now since extra health/magicka is needed so you can just flat out take direct hits or try and fill stamina manually. "Why not use shards and other abilities" you say. The self sufficiency of the tank has been eroded into being dependent on the occasional potion and other players who may not have, cannot use or out right will not share abilities or resources for the tanks benefit. As for options like using other abilities and spells to replenish stamina lets look at the DK's Earthen Heart line . Super expensive spells for a stamina build (Roughly 4k magicka for a 5% stamina return) half of which are useless to a tank. Stone fist or Petrify on a boss? Yeah right. Molten weapons? Too short and I dare you to take the time for a heavy attack on the hardest bosses. That skill line was ruined long ago but that is another coming forum thread. The other roles are not bound by this as they have personal and team resources AND their regens available to do their jobs. Every time you block even for the briefest period you start an up to 4 second delay in regen. The two seconds in between ticks before the shield goes up and the two seconds after it goes down. So its not just a regen nerf while blocking its a regen nerf on both sides of the action as well. Not even the courtesy of an instant stamina tick after the shield drop given two seconds have passed. I could list more but I feel like I gave you enough to chew on right there and you let you readers, if any, post what you noticed is wrong with the change.

Now for what they got right about that change . . . just kidding this was a bad idea from top to bottom. It was born PvE wise from what I feel are combat and enemies not being adjusted or designed to reflect how the game has been reinvented, yet again, and from PvP standpoint of allowing players to abuse unchecked Champion Points and the removal of balancing soft caps. I could think of many other solutions that I feel would trump this extremist change such as increasing cost of block or reducing effectiveness of damage reduction over time when bock is held for EXCESSIVE amounts of time or using an ability cancels the block effect for the moment of activation.

Why bother removing soft caps and adding CP only to end up once again imposing limitations. Tanking is less about the art and finesse and has become more about being punching bag trying to fill a gas tank. At the very least this should have been kept out of PvE and made part of the PvP Battle Spirit. But I never had any problem with a player who blocked until the timing to attack was right. Here is a good read on that subject http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Mirror. Please don't quote the whole post if you are going to reply and thank you for reading my treatise if you did.
Edited by nordsavage on September 25, 2015 4:58PM
I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • myrrrorb14_ESO
    myrrrorb14_ESO
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    Sometimes I forget and try to block attacks still. You get used to following the combat mechanics: block, roll, etc. Havent run my tank since the update, but on my other characters it can get ugly while blocking. Cant imagine tanking atm.

    I know it can be done still. Or so they say. But its a different setup / equipment / playstyle that I haven't put much effort into. Going to eventually do it when I get motivated.
  • frenchyuk86
    frenchyuk86
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    This amongst a dying player Base on the ps4 eu has made me leave. The changes make everything stupidly hard. Too hard for majority of hardcore players let along casuals
    Frenchyuk86 - PSN
    Vet 14 DragonKnight
    The Forlorn Hope Main Tank
  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    A big part of the tank problem is dps.

    Things take longer to take down now.

    It's a dps check as well.

    Their gear, stats, skills and CP need just as much work as tanks.

    Adds need to be burned down quick so the stam regen isn't as much of an issue.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not shifting blame. Tanks need to be good, their gear and stats in order and on top of their game. But dps roles need to adapt too.
    Edited by Brrrofski on September 24, 2015 4:25PM
  • Soleya
    Soleya
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    I never played at tank before IC release. After the release we had so much trouble finding tanks, that I decided to get some tank gear and start taking on my nightblade. For stamina regen I used siphoning strikes, which for some bosses works well. I can time light attacks in between blocks to regen. However on bosses with multiple adds all hitting me, you can't drop your guard without taking a bunch of hits. In some bosses it's nearly impossible to do.

    Also note they changed how potions work. They used to give a large amount of a resource and then a small amount over time. Now it's large amount + % regen. This means if you block after drinking a potion, you get no benefit from it other than that first large resource chunk from drinking it.

    I've heard the comment that before IC, all tanking was was standing around holding a shield up. I've run groups with a bad tank before so I know it was more involved than that. It was buffing players, healing, damage, keeping mobs off the DPS/Healer, all while blocking the incoming damage. Not sure why this change was needed for PVE. And like OP said, the change could have been put in PVP only.

    Not sure even what the issue was in PVP. Was easy to defeat perma blockers. NB fear made them drop guard and die nearly instantly if you had a few good people on them.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    Ran with plenty of tanks since the patch with zero issues....the changes make content more challenging and force tanks to actually work and make their job a lot more interesting. I am 100% for these changes. I have seen many unique strategies used such as popping ward and heavy attacking for regen..there are so many options though, now tanks can be more creative. Also now no one can complain how DK's have the best AoE taunt. Grind out that shiny new set from I CP that AOE taunts on a gap closer...
  • nordsavage
    nordsavage
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    There is a difference between challenging and tedious and boring. Real tanks did work but now the ones who didn't do it "professionally" are made to suffer. You ran with tanks but obviously were not one yourself before and after patch.
    I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • Jim_Berry
    Jim_Berry
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    nordsavage wrote: »
    *SNIP*

    ...For the most part if you were to tag all the enemies and block them at the same time you run out of stamina. This reduction in functionality limits peripheral actions such as crowd control, buffing/debuffing, supplemental Dps and heals. ...

    *SNIP*

    I agree with the tenfold, which is why, sadly, I now limit my usage of {Puncture} when in a dungeon against 4+ mobs. Funny part is, I tank better using {Brawler} from the Two-Handed tree since I can hit multiple enemies in front of me AND get a temporary shield buff.

    Honestly, this wasn't how I wanted to tank, though; wanted to full utilize it with my One-Hand & Shield.
    Edited by Jim_Berry on September 25, 2015 12:47AM
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    My tank use to be able to jump to the DPS with a Sap heal and Vigor and pull 100% Agro with no problem. Now I have to a build so boring it made me completely stop tanking it was all health if their was a health option I took it 38k health in PvE land use Siphoning Attacks yes it work but was boring and limited.

    My Nightblade brought a new favor to tanking now it may as well just be a Dragon Knight. It lose it's sexiness as a Tank that could self heal, little DPS all while still tanking and now it's just taunt, taunt full heavy every five seconds and recheck Siphoning Attacks.
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • bigereard
    bigereard
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    I tank with my blocking tank before and after patch, no problem, even without shard, and not boring, but maybe it's just me.

    And no, the only foundation of PvE tanking is taunting and staying alive, you don't have to block to be a tank.
    Block is only the easiest mechanism to concept because it's so obvious, my main char is also a tank, (I have 3 tank) and never block, I already have up to 66% damage mitigation before armor without blocking, and more if there's more than 1 enemy in my melee range.
    My other tank only do block 20%-30% of his tanking time.

    In every MMO tank always dependent to other job, healer, buffer.. Every class is, that's why it's an MMO, isn't it?
    Tank, healer, buffer's job is to make sure damage build have 100% DPS uptime, means the damage build don't have to heal, dodge, block, dead, reviving, only focus on damage. They dependent on us, why we don't have to dependent to other? If templar's shard can give me almost 100% block uptime, why not?

    I think i start to understand why good sets for teamplaying (aside for healing) is so unpopular compared to individual sets, maybe most people here think this game is like other TES series, just maybe, I don't know.


    Compared to other MMORPG I've played, I don't think tanking in ESO is hard.
    We can build a character with high armor, high damage resistance, have dodge, self healing, immunity to hard CC, have cleansing, and still have a decent damage, no limitation, no penalty.
    Last game I played with so much freedom is Path of Exile, and there's still heavy penalty & weakness for every good skill.
    Compared to TES series, of course ESO is hard, TES is single player, we can be solo immortal mighty god in TES game.

    Block itself it's super over power, reduce all type of damage up to 82.5%, from all angle, still can be heal, immune to some CC, can be activate and deactivate almost anytime (2.1) without penalty (pre 2.1). In my opinion, without regen is small price to pay for this overpowered mechanism.

    If the tank is rarer, then is good. Ideally tanks is only 20% of the total population, maybe less since not every player do team PvE.


    Last, I never said that this change is good, the real problem of tanking pre 2.1 is there's no content for the devoted tank (and devoted team of course). So the best solution I can think is: let's the casual tank have their regen, and introduce the certain hard content that only can be beaten with the devoted team. It's okay to make it so hard or even seems impossible at first, it's like an ultimate challenge of PvE, if it's at some point become to easy, just introduce the new one, with better reward.
    So, no one get boring, especially ZoS, lol.

    Dumb example to encourage tank creativity: A boss/mob's skill that can do 20+ small attack in a second for some times (or a boss summon many mobs or even environmental damage, I dunno), even with regen while blocking + good stam regen, blocking regen tank will still run out stamina easily, so they will forced to do other survivability thing other than blocking when the boss uses this skill.
    And for the team, maybe makes some of this barrage ranged, so you will need a secondary tank a with guard skill and/or beckoning steel set to reduce the load of the main tank that cannot block for a moment.

    I'm not a game developer, so i'm sure ZoS have far far better concept than my dumb idea.
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Not saying it was hard to Tank at all but my Tank could drop 6k sustainable DPS and 3k heals not great numbers for DPS or healing but when you get that from your Tank it's different I would have my Killer's Blade on my off bar taunts hold for 15 seconds why not help kill the boss after 25%.

    Now I had to double my health and stop healing on the DPS. My Nightblade Shadow Tank was a whole different beast then a Dragon Knight now it's the same what's the point with it now just roll a DK. I don't think you are accounting for peoples unique tanking style that were killed with this update
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    You get everything pretty much right OP.
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Not sure why this change was needed for PVE. And like OP said, the change could have been put in PVP only.

    It wasn't needed in PVE and I have an informed suspicion that the change was part created by a small sect of the streaming community only to be later implemented by ZOS after, at least, half of voiced opinions denounced the change.
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Fun and interactive. Right @ZOS_RichLambert ?
  • code65536
    code65536
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    @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO, I have a magicka nightblade saptank too. I was dreading Update 7 because it was a double-nerf for us NB tanks, with the nerf to stam regen and the big nerf to Siphoning Attacks. I wasn't sure if I was going to keep tanking after the update, and before the update, I responded to pretty much every "LF1M tank" that I saw so that I could "savor the final moments of nb tanking".

    These days, I've gone from "I'm not sure if I'd still be a viable tank" to "I'm tanking more than ever."

    It took some adjustment, and the first week was pretty rough. Siphoning Attacks now need to be constantly refreshed (still trying to get the hang of that--I wish I could get an on-screen notification for that) and it doesn't return nearly as much resources as it used to, particularly for magicka. One major adjustment that I made was to use Engine Guardian. I didn't need EG before the update, but the tough resource management post-update made it necessary (ugh, all those hours farming the helm!). I'm also using spear shards (if we have a Templar healer) and/or tri-stat potions (mostly for the stamina+magicka; I'm fine on health) a lot more than I was before the update.

    Now that I've geared up and adjusted, I feel like my nb saptank is even more powerful than before.
    • 5H/1M/1L with S+B on both bars
    • 5p Whitestrake (since Blur gives me 26 seconds of Major Evasion, Hist Bark just seems redundant)
    • 2p Engine Guardian
    • 2p Torug's Pact (for the spell damage)
    • Jewelry: 3p Footman (1x block reduct and 2x mag reduct enchants) or 3p Willpower (1x spell power and 2x mag reduct enchants), depending on the situation (I usually use the Willpower for its awesome DPS, but for situations where I'm under lots of pressure, I use the Footman)

    With 3p Footman, I have around 27K health, 24.7K mag, and 18K stam, after purple food buffs, with 1464 unbuffed spell damage. With 3p Willpower, I have 24.5K health, 30K mag, and 16K stam, after purple food buffs, with 1824 unbuffed spell damage. I don't have many CP--just 176--and it's not optimized for tanking since I also do dps/healing on the same character (I swap to a light Kagrenac gear set for those roles).

    I play mostly the same way I used to play. While I do drop block a lot more, in tough battles, I still hunker down behind my shield. I spam Sap Essence and Funnel Health and have very high DPS and self-healing. I do have to be more careful about resources, and I am chugging a lot more potions than I used to, but my tank is also doing even more DPS/healing now than before the update.

    So don't give up on that nightblade "unique tanking style". It needs a little adjustment, and it is a bit tougher than before, but it's definitely still viable. And fun.
    Edited by code65536 on September 25, 2015 10:30AM
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

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  • nordsavage
    nordsavage
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    Well there are exceptions to every rule but haven't you noticed how many tanks have given up or switched builds. This was supposed to "good for the long term health of the game". You know what is good for the game? Not having to eat changes that the majority do not like and having fun playing our preferred roles without half cocked changes tying our hands behind our backs.
    Edited by nordsavage on September 25, 2015 5:14PM
    I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • vladimilianoub17_ESO1
    vladimilianoub17_ESO1
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    I was one of those complaining about the no stam while blocking before it went live.Now that is live,I barely notice the difference while running vet dungeons.I just put,just a little bit of stam regen and now i do more heavy attacks on fights.Also added some points to that champ passive that increase magi/stam gain when heavy attacking(forgot name).But really the change it was not as bad as I though at first.

    Where i really feel the change is when im soloing grp content solo.My stam go down very fast as i dont have a healer with me and need to block more.But o well at least its not bad for grp content.
    Edited by vladimilianoub17_ESO1 on September 25, 2015 5:15PM
  • nordsavage
    nordsavage
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    Forget that its still doable, forget that a few builds survived intact. The fact is that they opened everything up with soft cap removal and CP only to turn around and put arbitrary limits on certain play styles. Give it enough time and a few players will abuse something you like then before you know it you they will restrict or nerf what you do and you will have bend your class and race into something less fun and attractive.
    I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • tpanisiakb16_ESO
    tpanisiakb16_ESO
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    Tanking is... meh right now.

    It's "doable" but it's certainly moved into a resource simulator which I don't find compelling or particularly entertaining. I rather enjoy tanking and treat it as an art form; neatly clumping up enemies, pulling them from afar, debuffing, buffing my allies, and providing myself as a meatbag between the enemies and my friends. Now? Now it feels messy, the aggro system is plenty messed up (which bums me out the most), and does not in any form feel badass or particularly skillful.

    I feel like a regular DPS if I have to drop my shield with multiple adds beating me. No matter my 34K armor / spell resistance and Dragonblood pumping in my veins, without my shield, in many situations I'm a soggy sack of limp meat.

    It's been about a month now for me, I'm still not having fun tanking. The "doable" aspect is pretty silly.
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    @code65536 my Stamina tank still works it's just boring don't want to do back to Magic Tank with the DPS and heal drop the role my tank fulled is gone it's just no fun watching Siphoning Attacks count down and I do better DPS on my Dragon Knight Tank making it pretty pointless to have two when one is far better then the other
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • Kupoking
    Kupoking
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    Im stilk a tank like you used to.

    Having a lot of success and fun.

    Sucks for you
  • lonewolf26
    lonewolf26
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    I'm still tanking even in this patch, but I'm weary when I run PUGs or hit new content. As I haven't ground up the resources needed to update my tank set for v16 I feel vet mode tanking of ICP and WGT on vet mode may be a bit much for my build. While I can still tank effectively on a nightblade siphon tank I did have to make some bar changes and more importantly control the urge to block excessively. I also have had to be more selective of the content I tank since I'm not speced out for all of it.

    What I've found lately is that even with the changes, my tank can't carry a group that's failing dps checks any more. For instance, let's take Selene's web which I pugged into to replace a group's tank who rage quit. The dps lacked enough to burn Selene without taking out all of the adds. They also seemed to lack AoE to take out the adds quickly enough before they got built up to a point where they would run out my resources. I'd always be the last to die in the fight simply due to the sheer numbers I'm facing when they all fell down. Their quizzical response to me was to ask why I wasn't taunting all of the adds. My quite honest response was to state that it's insufficient to taunt all of the adds because there's not enough stamina to taunt the universe and tank the boss. I feel for those who can't make their builds work. I've tanked, dps and healed and have endured challenges and successes in each.

    I do enjoy a challenge and don't get me wrong I do like the new style of tanking I've employed. However I also think the stam nerfs (blocking as well as roll dodging) were a bit harsh to come all at once. They should have either been gradually introduced or gated in such a way that the exploitive parties were penalized without harming the entire player base. Throwing them all in at once abnormally scaled the difficulty level of all content without providing a training mechanic for those who were still locked-in to the old ways. This hurt a lot of people who play casually as well as those who are just starting their journey.
  • aialghannam_ESO
    aialghannam_ESO
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    100% agree with OP. Stamina regen should be back to pre-IC stats. It was perfectly fine back then and was very much enjoyable to tank. Now it's just a resource-management game for tanks.
    R.I.P. Tanks
  • Reeko
    Reeko
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    I like the change. Made tanking more challenging. It was too easy before. Just hold block and taunt every so often.
  • Sensesfail13
    Sensesfail13
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    Im stilk a tank like you used to.

    Having a lot of success and fun.

    Sucks for you

    Must be an accountant...

    Im successful as well but it doesnt make tanking anything in this game more fun or interactive, it actually makes a large majority of the game suck, Bad. I still tank because people need it but I absolutely loathe the changes that came with IC and feel that it could have been a great patch without the major changes to game mechanics. And Im sure in the long term ZOS will feel that in their pocketbooks because this game is dying.
    Wisherr, Dragonknight, Haderus, NA Server.
    Wisher of Naught, Nightblade, Haderus, NA Server.
    Guild officer: Abandoned Legion
  • Colosso-monstro
    Colosso-monstro
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    Reeko wrote: »
    I like the change. Made tanking more challenging. It was too easy before. Just hold block and taunt every so often.

    You sound like a top tier tank bro. Ever think that maybe you were just a lazy tank and that others were doing more than taunt and block?
  • Darlgon
    Darlgon
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    .. but then, I took an arrow to the knee..

    the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-arrow-to-the-knee-meme.jpg?w=400
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • nordsavage
    nordsavage
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    Im stilk a tank like you used to.

    Having a lot of success and fun.

    Sucks for you

    I still tank so do not be mistaken over a clever forum title, it got you in here to read it. The point that I am trying to get across is that tanking is less fun and has so many less options for play style. Also that the nerf was not very well thought out or implemented. That change would be like cutting magicka regen every time you cast a heal or for the duration heal over time because of healers who only heal or "over heal" in PvP. For every one of you who like the change there are a dozen more who do not. Go post videos of how you tank and if you tank in a hard fight and I bet you it turns out to be lack luster. Put your money where your mouth as I would love to critique.
    .
    I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.
  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    Reeko wrote: »
    I like the change. Made tanking more challenging. It was too easy before. Just hold block and taunt every so often.

    No, that isn't what tanking was before.

    I could control the fight. Put adds in talons, chain one into an aoe, grab aggro off casters and use my reflective scale to help burn them down.

    Unfortunately I had to put all my magica into stamina so can't do that anymore.

    Tanking is still fine to do, just less fine.

    Now it is just taunt, block, heavy attack.
  • Howl
    Howl
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    Reeko wrote: »
    I like the change. Made tanking more challenging. It was too easy before. Just hold block and taunt every so often.

    No, that isn't what tanking was before.

    I could control the fight. Put adds in talons, chain one into an aoe, grab aggro off casters and use my reflective scale to help burn them down.

    Unfortunately I had to put all my magica into stamina so can't do that anymore.

    Tanking is still fine to do, just less fine.

    Now it is just taunt, block, heavy attack.

    Yeah this was the only problem for me. I had to change from a magicka Templar tank that was very busy supporting the group as well as tanking, to... a tank.
  • Anorak
    Anorak
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    When it comes to this I think it is good. All my friends who tank say it is more fun and more of a challenge. 9/10 you are running with a templar healer too as everyone knows they are superior in every way and the sorc nb and dk healers usually go more dps or off heal. I know templar should not have such power but that is the way ZoS has it atm.

    Now in terms of needing team support and potions I like that aspect as it MAKES SENSE. 1 dude vs a giant snakes spirit with the power to destroy tamreil good thing his shield is so strong and he is always protected -_- It interesting when the tank calls for a shard when running across vdsa final boss room and the healer throws one as he is full. It shows teamwork and that you help each other and not that the tank is a walking god.
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