Firerock2 wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.

I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.

I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.

Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.

Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.

Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.

And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.

Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.

Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.

I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?

"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.

"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "

No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.

Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record

Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.

Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.

Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.

"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"

You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.

I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you have to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.

I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.

Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.

Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.

Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.

And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.

Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.

Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.

I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?

"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.

"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "

No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.

Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record

Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.

Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.

Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.

"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"

You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.

You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.

Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.

I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.

My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.

All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.

I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.

1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive

Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xP

You know the larger heals come when you are lower in health near execute range?

BTW 300% damage isn't that bad when it's overtime (Radiant Destruction) seeing as you can just spam Hardened Ward or roll dodge the damage now.

Also If you want large heals you need to use light armor so you don't really get much more mitigation then a Sorc counterpart. Nice try.
XD

I don't really understand... shields are not health, health is health. It doesn't matter how big your shields are, if you have no health... you are dead, or stuck in lag xD. What you are saying is that shields = health. Therefore by your logic my maximum usable health is only 9k because my shield doesnt stack with itself. Light armor users usually have about 10k in armor atm which is about a 15% reduction. Light armor doesn't increase your heals either, just your sustainability.

Theres always counters to everything, but we aren't talking about the many different counters in each and every situation. I am only comparing BoL and HW under typical scenarios where the conditions stack against them about the same. 9k is a lot of damage for a whack or whatever, but if it's a crit then I can see where it comes from.

You must be confused, I never said shields=health I said shields are similar to health. BTW your math doesn't add up or you have severely gimped your character. You said if shields did equate to health then you would only have 9k usable health. Where is the rest of it? You have to have atleast a base of 10k real health and then add on a 9k shield.

A shield that protects from crits in my opinion is superior to a heal that needs to crit to get off decent numbers. Thats what I'm saying.I also want to add in that burst healing is far more expensive than Hardened Ward so LA is required if you want to sustain high SD/Magicka to be able to pull off those large heals.

My point all along has been that Hardened Ward is easier to spam in order to keep yourself alive than a burst heal, combine that with the fact that shields protect from crits and HW is better than BoL. Unless of course you are trying to be a healer, but I'm talking about small scale, sole survivability.