Stamina Sorcerers - the next steps for zos

dsalter · August 2015

the "per sorc ability slotted" needs to go tbh and allow it to just boost the weapon damage by a base about of 6-8%
still no debuff or direct stam ability either. geif crystal punch or whatever

Erock25 · August 2015

@jar_ek I am borrowing your list to add two more items and also rank them in my own opinion of what I think is most important.

1a. Change Crystal Blast to Crystal Punch, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that acts like a melee range version of Crystal Frags, cast time with chance of instant proc on stamina ability usage included.
1b. Change Daedric Tomb to Daedric Weapon, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that arms your melee weapon with a 'bomb' that explodes on the first heavy attack (full or partial) used 3 seconds after activation.
1c. Change Mage's Wrath (or Endless Fury) to Spellsword's Fury, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that does more base damage than Mage's Fury but has less execute potential.
2. Performing a melee attack resets Streak's stacking cost increase.
3. Enable one morph of conjured ward to scale off health rather than magicka (empowered).
4. Make Exploitation passive give Minor Weapon Crit to go along with the Spell Crit.
5. Make surge work with DoTs in a nice way or at least with channels (ie flurry)
6. Summoned pets to scale with stamina or magicka.

Here you go ZOS, a blueprint for making stamina Sorcs happy. Honestly they could implement every single one of these changes without making stam Sorc OP if done right, but that would just be unfair to the other classes. I think ZOS should absolutely do one of the 1's because we need some other mechanic for dealing damage and 2 because the only reason Bolt Escape was nerfed is because magicka Sorcs running away so there is no reason to punish stamina Sorcs for using this ability offensively. I think 3 is something they should definitely consider. If it scales properly on health, even magicka healing Sorcs would use this ability still for the Minor Mending. 12k shield (6k in pvp) with 20k HP sounds about right to me. Scaling up to 20k shield (10k in PVP) with 30k HP would be awesome for tank sorcs in both PVE and PVP without being overpowered since the ability still costs magicka and therefore can't be spammed. 4-6 are quality of life changes if you ask me and should be added but aren't necessary.

Huggalump · August 2015

Maybe this patch?

Cathexis · August 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Tbh guys I think we have to keep to relatively simple changes rather than out right rebuilding the class from scratch (although that would be an interesting exercise).

Thus far the main suggestions are (and tbh have always been from 1.6):
1. Provide a direct damage instant ability either via a morph of crystal shards being the same as frags but for stamina; or through a stamina morph of mages fury that is instant and has decent damage (details on both can be found above)
2. Enable one morph of conjured ward to scale off health rather than magicka (empowered).
3. Summoned pets to scale with stamina or magicka.
4. Make surge work with DoTs in a nice way or at least with channels (ie flurry)
5. Make one morph of daedric mines scale of stamina.

And just for reference...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/197466/stamina-sorcerer-changes-a-plea#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/167102/sorcerer-skilltrees-a-re-imagining/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153309/critique-of-current-sorcerer-skill-trees#latest

which ought to show some of the evolution in thinking.

This is a great and concise list, but I also think we should add a 6 which is make also increase weapon crit on Exploitation passive which is really just a no brainer as you would rarely if ever benefit from both weapon and spell crit at the same time. I think 4 is an absolute must, at least the flurry part. Then, I think 1 and 2 should happen. Crystal Blast being stam version of Frags is awesome because it gives the chance at an instant cast ability without giving us a spammable dps skill (which devs seem to want to avoid) while also giving us the meager Blood Magic heals. Empowered Ward should also change to scaling with health to give us another skill besides Bound Armaments to slot for the Daedric Protection passive while also giving stam sorcs some more defensive tools. The shield should be around 6k to 10k (in PVP) with 20k to 30k health.

I have to say that empowered ward scaling with health, while bringing it in Line with other shields, still makes it relatively useless. If all your points are in stam, how is scaling with health any better than magicka? It might be a little useful if shields weren't bugged so that surplus damage is unmitigated. Add on top of that the new ceitable shield reforms, I just don't see why asking for a stamina based shield would be unreasonable for a class spec that is typically a close range fighter (with the exception of snipe builds)

Is the shield bug being fixed?

6k shield after PVP debuffs at 20k HP is greater than DK and Temp shields, right? I would of course like them to fix the dmg shield bug where overflow dmg hits unmitigated, but a 6k shield with a 20s duration is pretty nice IMO, especially combined with roll dodges. It is like a single attack buffer and the combination of Empowered Ward canceled with a dodge roll while Vigor and Rally tick away is appealing to me, much more so than using Streak as my magicka dump. Even with the roll dodge and block nerfs, I feel that medium armor users have enough other forms of defense that giving them a stamina scaling shield would be a little out of control. I also would love to tank with a Sorc with 30k+ HP in PVE and PVP.

I'm not sure what forms of stamina based defense you mean.

I mean the ability to roll dodge more often, even after the recent nerf.

Dodge roll may avoid attacks, but it isnt a consistently reliable form of damage mediation (especially since everyone builds with dodge roll counters).

I could see a 6k shield being useful if shields remained uncrit-able but even if it were most people are specd for high initial burst 8-12k base damage. If you get smoked by a 24k critical and you have 20k health your looking at 2k health remaining. Every class other than stam sorcs can build for ongoing sustain far longer than a 2 shot without having to build as a full on tank. Why should we settle for less?

Granted I suppose I'm not accounting for pts pvp damage nerfs or shield nerfs

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

@jar_ek I am borrowing your list to add two more items and also rank them in my own opinion of what I think is most important.

1a. Change Crystal Blast to Crystal Punch, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that acts like a melee range version of Crystal Frags, cast time with chance of instant proc on stamina ability usage included.
1b. Change Daedric Tomb to Daedric Weapon, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that arms your melee weapon with a 'bomb' that explodes on the first heavy attack (full or partial) used 3 seconds after activation.
1c. Change Mage's Wrath (or Endless Fury) to Spellsword's Fury, a stamina/weapon power/weapon crit scaling ability that does more base damage than Mage's Fury but has less execute potential.
2. Performing a melee attack resets Streak's stacking cost increase.
3. Enable one morph of conjured ward to scale off health rather than magicka (empowered).
4. Make Exploitation passive give Minor Weapon Crit to go along with the Spell Crit.
5. Make surge work with DoTs in a nice way or at least with channels (ie flurry)
6. Summoned pets to scale with stamina or magicka.

Here you go ZOS, a blueprint for making stamina Sorcs happy. Honestly they could implement every single one of these changes without making stam Sorc OP if done right, but that would just be unfair to the other classes. I think ZOS should absolutely do one of the 1's because we need some other mechanic for dealing damage and 2 because the only reason Bolt Escape was nerfed is because magicka Sorcs running away so there is no reason to punish stamina Sorcs for using this ability offensively. I think 3 is something they should definitely consider. If it scales properly on health, even magicka healing Sorcs would use this ability still for the Minor Mending. 12k shield (6k in pvp) with 20k HP sounds about right to me. Scaling up to 20k shield (10k in PVP) with 30k HP would be awesome for tank sorcs in both PVE and PVP without being overpowered since the ability still costs magicka and therefore can't be spammed. 4-6 are quality of life changes if you ask me and should be added but aren't necessary.

Great job adding everything up. This is a great summary of what needs to happen. If they just made daedric toumb scale off stam it would be fine as is, it goes well with 2H.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert I never spam zos names in threads, this is the first time I have invited you guys to check something out. Thank you for showing some interest in stamina sorcs. We are a small but fervent group.

Above are the changes that stamina sorcs have really been asking for. We need a direct damage stamina based class skill that is NOT also a Utility (like lightning form). Every other class has this setup for their stam builds: Stamina for DPS, Magicka for utility is how stamina builds work. I have a full post explaining it HERE - Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Thanks for listening.

-The Swagonborn

Huggalump · August 2015

Dracane · August 2015

Huggalump wrote: »

Aw, I'm sorry

I feel sorry for you guys.

Ipsius · August 2015

This whole thread is a joke, right?

Huggalump · August 2015

Ipsius wrote: »

This whole thread is a joke, right?

i swear to god, if the next thing you say is "You can't summon magic with stamina hur hur" while running around in a game with stamina based heavenly javelins and stamina based nightblades flashing through the ether and stamina based dragonknights setting people on fire, I'm gonna lose my ***

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

Huggalump wrote: »

Ipsius wrote: »

This whole thread is a joke, right?

i swear to god, if the next thing you say is "You can't summon magic with stamina hur hur" while running around in a game with stamina based heavenly javelins and stamina based nightblades flashing through the ether and stamina based dragonknights setting people on fire, I'm gonna lose my ***

ZOS doesn't have a balance paradigm or a clear vision for the look and feel of each class. Those things are vital in a PvP game. If you ask Blizzards developers how their races in Starcraft are supposed to behave, they have a consistent philosophy and only add skills and abilities and units that match the race.

Blizzard closely watches all the matchups and improves them. ZOS is no where near that level of "big picture" thinking. The tail is wagging the dog.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

Just did some testing on the PTS.

If you PvP, forget about ever using Dark Deal.

That 50% healing debuff hits this ability hard.
(Note that I have about 6%healing taken from CP so thats why its not exactly 50%)

So a one second channel time for a 1.5k heal. Nope. Never gonna slot this ever.

Ability is again dead to me.

Rayste · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just did some testing on the PTS.

If you PvP, forget about ever using Dark Deal.

That 50% healing debuff hits this ability hard.
(Note that I have about 6%healing taken from CP so thats why its not exactly 50%)

So a one second channel time for a 1.5k heal. Nope. Never gonna slot this ever.

Ability is again dead to me.

Have another thread going for this particular skill.... I agree it is very underwhelming. Would love to have a true sorc heal we could rely on.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Dyride · August 2015

For active abilities, I think the damage from Unstable Clannfear needs to scale with Stamina and weapon power because it has PHYSICAL damage.

This gives an alternative to Bound Armaments to get the Daedric Protection passive , helps Sorc Tank dps and also is a good survival skill that can't be spammed cause it takes 2/3rds of the average stam builds magicka.

The tanking aspect of the Clannfear would still be viable for magicka Sorc tanks because they can pull DPS from else where plus are more able to recast.

Honestly that is all I'm going to advocate for anymore, the class has gotten better but just this logical change would go a long ways.

Jitterbug · September 2015

I love this whole thread

Jar_Ek · September 2015

Pity zos didn't pay more attention to it.
In fact it a pity that zos haven't created class advocates for magicka and stamina and don't have class forums with stickied threads for stamina and magicka class discussion.

Huggalump · September 2015

the only thing I want, really, is some instant cast, melee stamina morph. I'm sick of dying to nightblades before I can charge a wrecking blow

SeptimusDova · September 2015

Can we make a big push for the Stam sorc when Orsinium hits the PTS? I like the concepts enough and it would be interesting to tackle these in a PVP setting with crystal punch. while drinking Hawaiian Punch.It is a good idea and a positive change.A true win win

Jar_Ek · September 2015

We can try...

Cathexis · September 2015

T

Huggalump wrote: »

the only thing I want, really, is some instant cast, melee stamina morph. I'm sick of dying to nightblades before I can charge a wrecking blow

Since this patch, I agree.

Templars hit me with jabs and javelins
Dragon knights hit me with whips and flying charges and flags
Nightblades hit me with a dozen different damage abilities including a teleport charge and fear

Is it that much to ask for one ability that has some sort of unique effect and is instant cast?

Playing croquet with skulls is really starting to get cheesy.

Please improve 1vX for under 300 cp

Hridh · October 2015

Despite Yolokin's great post on page 1, remark that still nothing for Stamina sorcerers... are we considered "fixed" for both pve/pvp? :_(

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard and about to be op IF you play WW, so please ZOS don't give sorcerers another boost while the leaderboard, at least in EU servers are about to be 40% NB, 40% sorcerers, 10% DK, 10% templar.

The leaderboard shows how op those 2 classes (NB and sorcerers) are, and i know what i am saying, i have a templar, HL, a soso HL and a young NB. My sorcerer and NB hits way more harder than the templar, while this one is my better stuffed toon

CP5 · October 2015

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard and about to be op IF you play WW, so please ZOS don't give sorcerers another boost while the leaderboard, at least in EU servers are about to be 40% NB, 40% sorcerers, 10% DK, 10% templar.

The leaderboard shows how op those 2 classes (NB and sorcerers) are, and i know what i am saying, i have a templar, HL, a soso HL and a young NB. My sorcerer and NB hits way more harder than the templar, while this one is my better stuffed toon

Mind elaborating on how stamina sorc's are borderline op?

Alucardo · October 2015

I 100% agree stam sorcs need looking at, but your title is a little flawed. DKs are the next step. OK, please continue with the discussion.

Xeven · October 2015

I would totally roll a Stork if it was just a little bit better. I can get behind a Crystal Punch. I approve of stam morphs for any ability that Magicka Sorcs arent already using.

Ahzek · October 2015

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard and about to be op IF you play WW,

Sorcs are about the weakest class during WW form.

NBs get extra recovery (arguably the best bonus).
DKs get a ton of resources back and have better blockmitigation
Temps get even more (melee only) block mitigation.

For sorcs most stam based passives are based around slotting sorc skills (which we hardly do anything off already).
The only benefit we get during our transformaion is the 5% costreduction, which is most often inferior to the NB recovery or the DK battle roar.

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard

Stam sorcs hit hard with Uppercut. A skill that is available to everyone, but you only really sorcs and DKS using it because they lack a spammable stamina based DPS skill.

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

the leaderboard, at least in EU servers are about to be 40% NB, 40% sorcerers

Most of the sorcs you see on the leaderboards are probably magicka based, since thats what most people chose a sorc for in the first place. (And also because mag sorc is way easier to play than stam sorc).
Additionally leaderboards are nothing to take into account when talking about individual class balance. Leaderboards pretty much purely reflect the time a player invests into actually earning AP in his home campaign and everyone with enough time and a restro staff can go earn emperor on any decently active campaign.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

CP5 wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard and about to be op IF you play WW, so please ZOS don't give sorcerers another boost while the leaderboard, at least in EU servers are about to be 40% NB, 40% sorcerers, 10% DK, 10% templar.

The leaderboard shows how op those 2 classes (NB and sorcerers) are, and i know what i am saying, i have a templar, HL, a soso HL and a young NB. My sorcerer and NB hits way more harder than the templar, while this one is my better stuffed toon

Mind elaborating on how stamina sorc's are borderline op?

OK. My stam ww sorcerer imperial :
. +20% (!!) stam regen
. reduced cost of ulti by 15%
. +5% max stamina (bound armor) + armor/spell resist buff staching + speed buff (thunderring presence )
. stamina abilities cost reduced by 5%
. +2% weapon power/sorcerer ability slotted (means at least +4% in any build)

Those passives are the best class stamina oriented passives in game, even NB don"t have those huge buffs. On top of that, with a WW ult slotted (which have a ridiculous cost decrease), +15% more stam regen, not saying that i am a imperial (hello silly stam buff ^^)

Conclusion : i have one of the best natural stam regen, one of the best mobility (streak) and with this i can stack plenty of weapon power + max stam, while with a templar or dk i have to go for more passive defense, sacrificing a good part of dps for defense.

TheBull · October 2015

Give pets a stam morph!
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210668/i-got-it-give-sorc-pets-a-stam-morph#latest

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

TheBull wrote: »

Give pets a stam morph!
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210668/i-got-it-give-sorc-pets-a-stam-morph#latest

lol

Corellon Thromorin · October 2015

Sorry, but

CP5 · October 2015

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers already hit very hard and about to be op IF you play WW, so please ZOS don't give sorcerers another boost while the leaderboard, at least in EU servers are about to be 40% NB, 40% sorcerers, 10% DK, 10% templar.

The leaderboard shows how op those 2 classes (NB and sorcerers) are, and i know what i am saying, i have a templar, HL, a soso HL and a young NB. My sorcerer and NB hits way more harder than the templar, while this one is my better stuffed toon

Mind elaborating on how stamina sorc's are borderline op?

OK. My stam ww sorcerer imperial :
. +20% (!!) stam regen
. reduced cost of ulti by 15%
. +5% max stamina (bound armor) + armor/spell resist buff staching + speed buff (thunderring presence )
. stamina abilities cost reduced by 5%
. +2% weapon power/sorcerer ability slotted (means at least +4% in any build)

Those passives are the best class stamina oriented passives in game, even NB don"t have those huge buffs. On top of that, with a WW ult slotted (which have a ridiculous cost decrease), +15% more stam regen, not saying that i am a imperial (hello silly stam buff ^^)

Conclusion : i have one of the best natural stam regen, one of the best mobility (streak) and with this i can stack plenty of weapon power + max stam, while with a templar or dk i have to go for more passive defense, sacrificing a good part of dps for defense.

You realize, aside from the ultimate cost reduction, that ALL of those passives are lost in ww form, right?

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Sorry, but

1, this is ESO any class any role, 2, sorcerer's in this games universe are known for using heavy armor, having little magicka regen, being magicka sponges and being skilled with weapons for when they run out of magicka.