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Tanking With the LT - Let's Talk About the Unassailable Set Baby
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Timeetyo✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Its not hard to hit the cap of 32k with one skill and all epic or gold gear.
I got all purple and hitting around 31k and the help of 12% mig damage help.
Why would you give up 12% mig damage when you can max out the phys res and get 12%dmg mig?
Hey there @cidxlucy , thank you for the question.
Earlier in the thread I posted some numbers about the footman set. I'll repost them directly below.
blocking with full gear: 1246 dmg taken, 77.7% mitigated
blocking with full gear(+Footman): 1041 dmg taken, 81.4% mitigated
So as you see, because of diminished returns with damage mitigation, the footman 5 piece bonus is only adding around 4% extra damage mitigation, not 12. That is the reason for using a different set which doesn't supply a heavily diminished stat, such as the unassailable set with its healing received bonus.
The issue here is you are looking at the percent of the initial hit and not the delta in damage values to support your argument.
What really matters is that in this example you are mitigating 204 more damage which is approx 16% of what you would otherwise be taking (1246).
I see this logic used a lot for tanking and it is very misleading. As you get closer to 100% mitigation each individual% is worth significantly more. Consider this fictitious example to illustrate the point:
100k base hit
80% mitigation base (take 20k hit)
Add in another 10% mitigation to 90 and you take a 10k hit.....that 10% effectively doubled your mitigation.
Vs.
100k base hit
10% mitigation base (take 90k hit)
Add in another 10% mitigation to 20 % and you take a 80k hit
This is why tanks doing proper theory crafting look at effective hit points and not raw mitigation as the raw numbers are very misleading. In one case the 10% is doubling your effective HP and in the other the same 10% makes am almost negligible difference to your effective HP.2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Its not hard to hit the cap of 32k with one skill and all epic or gold gear.
I got all purple and hitting around 31k and the help of 12% mig damage help.
Why would you give up 12% mig damage when you can max out the phys res and get 12%dmg mig?
Hey there @cidxlucy , thank you for the question.
Earlier in the thread I posted some numbers about the footman set. I'll repost them directly below.
blocking with full gear: 1246 dmg taken, 77.7% mitigated
blocking with full gear(+Footman): 1041 dmg taken, 81.4% mitigated
So as you see, because of diminished returns with damage mitigation, the footman 5 piece bonus is only adding around 4% extra damage mitigation, not 12. That is the reason for using a different set which doesn't supply a heavily diminished stat, such as the unassailable set with its healing received bonus.
The issue here is you are looking at the percent of the initial hit and not the delta in damage values to support your argument.
What really matters is that in this example you are mitigating 204 more damage which is approx 16% of what you would otherwise be taking (1246).
I see this logic used a lot for tanking and it is very misleading. As you get closer to 100% mitigation each individual% is worth significantly more. Consider this fictitious example to illustrate the point:
100k base hit
80% mitigation base (take 20k hit)
Add in another 10% mitigation to 90 and you take a 10k hit.....that 10% effectively doubled your mitigation.
Vs.
100k base hit
10% mitigation base (take 90k hit)
Add in another 10% mitigation to 20 % and you take a 80k hit
This is why tanks doing proper theory crafting look at effective hit points and not raw mitigation as the raw numbers are very misleading. In one case the 10% is doubling your effective HP and in the other the same 10% makes am almost negligible difference to your effective HP.
The fact is, we get diminished returns on % damage mitigation added and that is a big deal when we are trying to be efficient.
Please find my post, post number 16, that discusses damage mitigation in very similar terms to the way you describe it. As I imply, there are times when Footman's Fortune will be useful and that is even if the set doesn't give anywhere near the amount of damage mitigation that it's tool tip states.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
S1ipperyJim✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »there are times when Footman's Fortune will be useful and that is even if the set doesn't give anywhere near the amount of damage mitigation that it's tool tip states.
Without knowing all the specifics I would say the tool tip mitigation value is actually correct but what confuses is at what point does that 12% mitigation apply when damage is dealt eg before or after armour/spell resistance values are applied to the damage. Without testing, the most intuitive guess would be that the 12% applies to the base damage, remaining (actual) damage is then mitigated by armor/spell resistance (and shields). Not 100% sure though. Not disagreeing with anything you were saying, by the way just thinking out loud (or quietly via my keyboard).
That said, I would view a Tank relying on healing rather than damage mitigation is more of a reactive approach which I usually find distasteful and less efficient. If you are taking less damage you save on time (casting heals) and resources (applying heals), of course this discounts the majority of healing in a group which would come from your healer, however over relianceg on my healer is also something I would prefer to avoid when possible (due to usually playing in PUGs)3 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »there are times when Footman's Fortune will be useful and that is even if the set doesn't give anywhere near the amount of damage mitigation that it's tool tip states.
Without knowing all the specifics I would say the tool tip mitigation value is actually correct but what confuses is at what point does that 12% mitigation apply when damage is dealt eg before or after armour/spell resistance values are applied to the damage. Without testing, the most intuitive guess would be that the 12% applies to the base damage, remaining (actual) damage is then mitigated by armor/spell resistance (and shields). Not 100% sure though. Not disagreeing with anything you were saying, by the way just thinking out loud (or quietly via my keyboard).
That said, I would view a Tank relying on healing rather than damage mitigation is more of a reactive approach which I usually find distasteful and less efficient. If you are taking less damage you save on time (casting heals) and resources (applying heals), of course this discounts the majority of healing in a group which would come from your healer, however over relianceg on my healer is also something I would prefer to avoid when possible (due to usually playing in PUGs)
My thought is that, in places where one may be considering footman or unassailable, the healing is being done regardless of the set that is used.
What I am leaning toward thinking is that there is a sweet spot in how many hits a tank can take before dying and how fast the healing that they are receiving can put them back to full health.
I also don't believe that there is anything wrong with a reactive strategy per se. We could very well see a future Trial Boss that will 2 shot a tank despite the tanks high mitigation rating. If that were ever the case, and it can be on the Possessed Mantikora, then the healers and tank need to be ready to react with their burst heal.Edited by Personofsecrets on September 23, 2015 5:05AMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »there are times when Footman's Fortune will be useful and that is even if the set doesn't give anywhere near the amount of damage mitigation that it's tool tip states.
Without knowing all the specifics I would say the tool tip mitigation value is actually correct but what confuses is at what point does that 12% mitigation apply when damage is dealt eg before or after armour/spell resistance values are applied to the damage. Without testing, the most intuitive guess would be that the 12% applies to the base damage, remaining (actual) damage is then mitigated by armor/spell resistance (and shields). Not 100% sure though. Not disagreeing with anything you were saying, by the way just thinking out loud (or quietly via my keyboard).
That said, I would view a Tank relying on healing rather than damage mitigation is more of a reactive approach which I usually find distasteful and less efficient. If you are taking less damage you save on time (casting heals) and resources (applying heals), of course this discounts the majority of healing in a group which would come from your healer, however over relianceg on my healer is also something I would prefer to avoid when possible (due to usually playing in PUGs)
My thought is that, in places where one may be considering footman or unassailable, the healing is being done regardless of the set that is used.
What I am leaning toward thinking is that there is a sweet spot in how many hits a tank can take before dying and how fast the healing that they are receiving can put them back to full health.
I also don't believe that there is anything wrong with a reactive strategy per se. We could very well see a future Trial Boss that will 2 shot a tank despite the tanks high mitigation rating. If that were ever the case, and it can be on the Possessed Mantikora, then the healers and tank need to be ready to react with their burst heal.
Your point here seems to indicate that healing received is becoming more useful than it was in the past. This thread is the best I've seen in terms of number crunching healing received bonuses, which still apparently stack additively despite the most recent patch notes. I've also been wondering that, given the lack of stam regen while blocking, that overall mitigation while not blocking is now more important as you are now taking more hits while not blocking. This would prioritize set bonuses to armor and spell resistance over mitigation effects that only activate when blocking.
Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Hey, thank you for posting.ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »there are times when Footman's Fortune will be useful and that is even if the set doesn't give anywhere near the amount of damage mitigation that it's tool tip states.
Without knowing all the specifics I would say the tool tip mitigation value is actually correct but what confuses is at what point does that 12% mitigation apply when damage is dealt eg before or after armour/spell resistance values are applied to the damage. Without testing, the most intuitive guess would be that the 12% applies to the base damage, remaining (actual) damage is then mitigated by armor/spell resistance (and shields). Not 100% sure though. Not disagreeing with anything you were saying, by the way just thinking out loud (or quietly via my keyboard).
That said, I would view a Tank relying on healing rather than damage mitigation is more of a reactive approach which I usually find distasteful and less efficient. If you are taking less damage you save on time (casting heals) and resources (applying heals), of course this discounts the majority of healing in a group which would come from your healer, however over relianceg on my healer is also something I would prefer to avoid when possible (due to usually playing in PUGs)
My thought is that, in places where one may be considering footman or unassailable, the healing is being done regardless of the set that is used.
What I am leaning toward thinking is that there is a sweet spot in how many hits a tank can take before dying and how fast the healing that they are receiving can put them back to full health.
I also don't believe that there is anything wrong with a reactive strategy per se. We could very well see a future Trial Boss that will 2 shot a tank despite the tanks high mitigation rating. If that were ever the case, and it can be on the Possessed Mantikora, then the healers and tank need to be ready to react with their burst heal.
Your point here seems to indicate that healing received is becoming more useful than it was in the past. This thread is the best I've seen in terms of number crunching healing received bonuses, which still apparently stack additively despite the most recent patch notes. I've also been wondering that, given the lack of stam regen while blocking, that overall mitigation while not blocking is now more important as you are now taking more hits while not blocking. This would prioritize set bonuses to armor and spell resistance over mitigation effects that only activate when blocking.
The most important finding from that thread is, in my opinion, the following.Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.(5 items) Healer's Habit: Increases Healing done by 8.0%.(3 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing TakenQuick Recovery
Increases the effectiveness of healing received by 0%Blessed
Increases the effectiveness of any healing you initiate by 0%
Overall, there appear to be different ways of adding healing. OP also showed that diminished returns are very real with those healing stats (They also started with 33% healing from dragon blood so they only managed to increase there healing by an actual number of 61.7%). I think what is happening is that the healing stats are working well with each other and diminishing with themselves. That would explain why the found Healer's Habit and Unassailable to not give their fully undiminished bonus.
Healing is a good stat and especially good for tanks that are healing themselves and others. I'm leaning toward believing that we live in a world where extra healing percent can be just as good as damage mitigation and am wanting to try a healing set because the damage mitigation set exposes me to severe diminished returns.
You are certainly right about passive effects being better than the same effect that must be activated. That being said, I don't believe that tanks should be considering letting go of their block unless they have no chance of being hit. Even then, the stamina gained from a few instances of letting go of block is so negligible that the most practical thing for tanks to do, I think, is to make changes to their build that let them permanently block. Let's just hope that the developers don't nerf tanks again once they find out what we have been up to!Edited by Personofsecrets on September 30, 2015 7:30PMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good lord this post is from ancient times, I hope you haven't read the whole thing and think it what's written and tested here can be viable for today Q_Q
Need to test them all again, if you wish to keep this subject up >.<0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »Good lord this post is from ancient times, I hope you haven't read the whole thing and think it what's written and tested here can be viable for today Q_Q
Need to test them all again, if you wish to keep this subject up >.<
Yes, i'm considering this set as viable, today.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
Petros✭✭✭@Personofsecrets
v12 set came from HRCEdited by Petros on November 20, 2015 1:28AM"Our light will bring the dawning of a new hope!" ~ Petros Fordring -The Order of Mundus
- VR16 Imperial Dragonknight (DC -NA) & The One Handed Tank0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Personofsecrets
v12 set came from HRC
Yup! I'm pretty sure it no longer drops there though. Thank you for the information.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
Petros✭✭✭No, it doesn't, haven't seen it dropped in a long time, but good news, when they remove vet lvls, this will be easy to find"Our light will bring the dawning of a new hope!" ~ Petros Fordring -The Order of Mundus
- VR16 Imperial Dragonknight (DC -NA) & The One Handed Tank0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Will this set ever be CP rank 160?Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Will this set ever be CP rank 160?
Could you find out if it drops from Aa or Hel Ra?When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
SublimeSparo✭✭✭✭✭I've never seen it drop in AA or HRC myself, but akaviri dragonguard does... thinking 5 tavas + akaviri dg + 2p Bloodspawn would be funPS4 EU CP900. PS4 NA CP600,
vAA HM ☆ vHRC HM ☆ vSO HM ☆ vMOL
4th Console vMOL clear,
vMA cleared on all classes stam & magic
My TribeEU
High Sparo - Altmer - mSo DD.
Wood Sparo - Bosmer - sNB DD
Nord Sparo - Nord -sDK DD/Tank.
Bubble Girl - Imperial -sTe DD
Succubus Sue - Breton - mNB Tank.
Andrana Stormlock - Altmer - mTe Healer/ DD
Elvali Marvani - Dunmer - mDK DD.
Venemus Draconem - Redguard - sDK DD
Jayri Leki - Redguard - sSo DD.
Miss Jabsalot - Altmer - mTe PvP DD/ Tank
Mireli Hlaano - Dunmer - mNB DD.
Ms Shanks - Redguard - sNB DD/ le bank
NA
Dilemma Dame - Altmer - mDK DD
Stamsorc Kitty - Redguard - sSor DD
Aia Draconis - Imperial - sDK Tank
Decides-Who-Lives - Argonian - mTe Healer
You wont stop me - Altmer - mSo DD
Stab in the dark - Khajiit - sNB DD
Jabjabjab Beambeambeam - Dunmer - mTe DD
Spatium Auxiliarus - Imperial - hTe Tank&bank
Spectre - Altmer - mNB DD
Can't-Main-Tank -Argonian - sDK offTank0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Will this set ever be CP rank 160?
Could you find out if it drops from Aa or Hel Ra?
well it did, I think, during 1.3 . @timidobserver , right?Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
GoodFella146✭✭✭✭✭This is why every set in the game should be craftable. Deconstruct a piece to learn how to make the set1
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Will this set ever be CP rank 160?
Could you find out if it drops from Aa or Hel Ra?
well it did, I think, during 1.3 . @timidobserver , right?
I know at one point it dropped from Craglorn bosses. I don't remember if it ever dropped in Hel-Ra.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My personal sites are on Akaviri DragonGoodFella146 wrote: »This is why every set in the game should be craftable. Deconstruct a piece to learn how to make the set
Great ideaRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0
