Wrecking Blow

Armitas · September 2015

Vangy wrote: »

I told u how other people counter WB. Not QQ about sorcs using bolt. Correct me if im wrong, I dont see my account making a QQ nerf Bolt thread? If 80% of sorcs and almost all NBs and Templars are able to stand toe to toe with WBs against me, why cant u do it? So u do admit WB can be countered/dodged? Dosent this make this whole thread kinda pointless?

I never said you were qqing about them. Do you even read posts? My build can handle WB, I never said I had a problem against it..again do you even read what you are responding to.

Vangy · September 2015

You say : Dodging WB isn't really a long term plan. If I used WB I would hope you dodge the first ones, that way you won't be breaking free when it finally lands.

I say: 80% of sorcs bolt through me when I use wb. Nightblade cloak and never get hit. Templars just stand there and out heal my damage somehow. Dodge rolling is just one of the many solutions to WB..

Once again I'm curious how many people who want wb nerfs actually have a stamina class maxed at v16 and have tried to spam wrecking blow on other players.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong with how I spam WB...

Notice how im actually GIVING u extra "plans" against wrecking blow? Not QQ-ing about sorcs who can evade it. The point i was trying to make is that WB is VERY easily countered

Vangy · September 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

I told u how other people counter WB. Not QQ about sorcs using bolt. Correct me if im wrong, I dont see my account making a QQ nerf Bolt thread? If 80% of sorcs and almost all NBs and Templars are able to stand toe to toe with WBs against me, why cant u do it? So u do admit WB can be countered/dodged? Dosent this make this whole thread kinda pointless?

I never said you were qqing about them. Do you even read posts? My build can handle WB, I never said I had a problem against it..again do you even read what you are responding to.

AH YES finally i just wanted to hear this. "I have nothing against it". Thank you friend I must have misunderstood your previous posts. My apologies. If we can both agree nothing is wrong with WB I rest my case and everything I said can be ignored

Armitas · September 2015

Vangy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

I told u how other people counter WB. Not QQ about sorcs using bolt. Correct me if im wrong, I dont see my account making a QQ nerf Bolt thread? If 80% of sorcs and almost all NBs and Templars are able to stand toe to toe with WBs against me, why cant u do it? So u do admit WB can be countered/dodged? Dosent this make this whole thread kinda pointless?

I never said you were qqing about them. Do you even read posts? My build can handle WB, I never said I had a problem against it..again do you even read what you are responding to.

AH YES finally i just wanted to hear this. "I have nothing against it". Thank you friend I must have misunderstood your previous posts. My apologies. If we can both agree nothing is wrong with WB I rest my case and everything I said can be ignored

If you are not going to actually read what I write I will just put you on ignore. Just let me know in the next 5 minutes if you will be capable of that.

Vangy · September 2015

Ah I figured out what happened after looking through. Ur post cut in on my phone right after I was done talking with Leandor. The context of my argument with his got compiled into yours and I though u were him lol. My bad friend. You didn't QQ about wb in this thread. Once again my apologies.

Leandor · September 2015

The comedic value is rather high in that one's posts...

Vangy · September 2015

Leandor wrote: »

The comedic value is rather high in that one's posts...

I agree lol. But I must say that was rather entertaining. Gave me something to QQ about on the way home from work.

Leandor · September 2015

Vangy wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

The comedic value is rather high in that one's posts...

I agree lol. But I must say that was rather entertaining. Gave me something to QQ about on the way home from work.

Vangy · September 2015

Ooo a horsey!

Armitas · September 2015

Vangy wrote: »

Ah I figured out what happened after looking through. Ur post cut in on my phone right after I was done talking with Leandor. The context of my argument with his got compiled into yours and I though u were him lol. My bad friend. You didn't QQ about wb in this thread. Once again my apologies.

No problem. Glad we got it resolved.

Yonkit · September 2015

Just get rid of wrecking blow. It's baddie skill for baddies. I swear I've never used it.

BalgusFlinn · September 2015

Vangy wrote: »

You say : Dodging WB isn't really a long term plan. If I used WB I would hope you dodge the first ones, that way you won't be breaking free when it finally lands.

I say: 80% of sorcs bolt through me when I use wb. Nightblade cloak and never get hit. Templars just stand there and out heal my damage somehow. Dodge rolling is just one of the many solutions to WB..

Once again I'm curious how many people who want wb nerfs actually have a stamina class maxed at v16 and have tried to spam wrecking blow on other players.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong with how I spam WB...

Notice how im actually GIVING u extra "plans" against wrecking blow? Not QQ-ing about sorcs who can evade it. The point i was trying to make is that WB is VERY easily countered

This! ^^^^^^^^^^^

Go ahead, nerf WB. I need one more excuse not to play a stam dps dk.

Vangy · September 2015

@Armitas

likewise. It's really nice to know there are indeed enough people out there who know how to play against wb rather than come to forums and QQ about how wb is undodgeAble and how it wrecks face.

@BalgusFlinn yeah if they nerf wb id be forced to wear a dress.... Already gave up tanking cos nerf to block just made it no fun (still possible to tank though just not fun or interactive like zos claims).

Lefty_Lucy · September 2015

Wrecking Blow should still be bashable.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

Wrecking Blow should still be bashable.

Why was it changed to not being bashable in the first place? every other charge skill can be interrupted xD

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

This thread officially represents everything that is wrong with this forum

Farorin · September 2015

Wrecking blow hasn't been changed and no one was complaining about it before?

It's no more OP than many other skills, it's just super common now due to it being one of the only viable stamina options for many. Rather than nerf Wrecking blow, I say give people more useful skills by fixing the useless ones!

Lord-Otto · September 2015

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Lord-Otto · September 2015

And one last thing...

With far over 200 replies, first of all, I thank everyone for the input, be it pro or contra.
Secondly, I'd like to point out, that apparently there IS a problem with Wrecking Blow, or else this thread wouldn't get that much attention.
Sad thing is, though, that Zenimax, the ones who SHOULD pay attention more than anyone else, are not regarding this at all. Game design at its worst.
=(

Tdroid · September 2015

Seeing one of the "ideas" for balancing Wrecking Blow, I have an idea too!

Make Wrecking Blow interuptable like people want, remove the Empower buff and remove the stun(but leave the knockback in there), but give it a 35% chance when using other stamina abilities to proc an instant cast with 20% damage increase and 50% cost reduction, just like Frags. This would essentially make it a melee, stamina version of Crystal Frags. I bet this would get even more complaints that how it is now.

On a side note, I do think that DWs needs access to a strong single target damage skill.

Seriously though, to the people who say you can't compare Wrecking Blow to Crystal Frags; why not? Yes, Wrecking Blow is accessible to all classes, while Frags is a Sorc exclusive(magicka Sorc exclusive in practice), but the skills are fundamentally similar in their behavior. Both have a fairly long charge with a CC effect and high damage. Frags can be interupted(unless it procs), but can be cast at a range and gap closers are usually not fast enough to let you interupt it so that is a fairly rare occurance. WB has to be used within instant-interupt range, but gives a soft CC immunity to compensate for it. It also leaves you open for things like Surprise Attack(byebye armor and hello enemy armor) and hard CC. Wrecking Blow is not in my experience a particularly useful skill in PvP overall, because people so easily avoid being hit by it. It was even worse before it got the soft CC immunity, to the point of being entirely useless. Frags is really powerful and always was because of the proc and the range.

But lets say we agree to nerf Wrecking Blow. That would take away the only reliable single target damage option for both Stamina Dragonknight and Stamina Sorcerer, because the developers have still not given those two classes a skill like Jabs or Surprise Attack that would let them use class skills for stamina DPS. This would pretty much kill the stamina versions for these classes.

As people have pointed out many, many times, Wrecking Blows usefulness in PvP is highly overstated. It has a very high skill cap to be able to use it effectively unless you happen to be group-rushing someone who are unprepared or just not very good at(like me) fighting several opponents. And if that is the scenario, pretty much any skill will do. However, if you fight 1 on 1, getting a Wrecking Blow in is hard. Much harder than Frags because of the range and proc. And you want to do something from Sneak? Pff, you don't even Snipe, brah? Seriously, we need to fix Sneak Snipe long before we start to talk about Sneak Wrecking Blow, because that range and damage is ridiculous.

When you meet someone who 1) has a build ill suited for PvP(since what is good in PvE and PvP is quite different), 2) are unfamiliar with how to counter WB or 3) simply manage to outdo them in battlefield movements, then WB can be very powerful. However, this is still a much higher player skill(or luck) cap for usefulness than Frags have. Because a Frag Sorc will shred 1) and 2) just as easily, and has an easier time achieving 3) because of the range and proc. And it hits just as hard, often harder.

Or, alternatively, they could just give the Dragonknight and Sorcerer stamina morphs to skills they might actualy want as stamina damage builds. Lava Whip getting a stamina(preferably also making it physical damage, to better synergise with the Champion Points, so one wouldn't have to invest in the one that gives spell crit over weapon crit) version would likely go a long way to reduce the presence of WB. Making a new morph for one of the Sorc skills to make it an instant single target damage skill of comparable usefulness to Surprise Attack(again preferably making it physical damage because of the Champion Point system).

I would like to end it with saying that while I defend Wrecking Blow(though, it would be sweet to have that proc idea I put here implemented), I am not happy with the state of stamina damage builds at the time being. Either magicka(along with WB in that case) has to be nerfed or DW has to be buffed along with class stamina being made more accessible, and there has to be another stamina heal available to all made more accessible(Vigor did improve things a bit, but we need one that is not a DoT too). It is bad game design that as a stamina damage dealer, I am mostly reliant on the 2-handed skill line just to roughly be able to keep up with magicka wielders. And hardly even keep up at times, expecially when you compare magicka Dragonknights to stamina Dragonknights.

Tdroid · September 2015

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

Wrecking Blow should still be bashable.

Why was it changed to not being bashable in the first place? every other charge skill can be interrupted xD

Pretty sure it was changed to not be bashable because you just got insta-bashed when you used it before it was. It is already within bash range when you activate it and has a full seconds charge time before you get any effect out of it. At least Puncture/Jabs has some instant effect, so even if you manage to interupt it, you still take at least 1/4 of the total damage. And both Snipe and Crystal Shards can be used at a much longer range, largely negating the risk of being bashed.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

You actually want a 7 meter range, 1 second chargeup singe target ability that, while immune to soft CC, can be fairly easily dodged(or sidestepped, or hard CCd because of the cast time) and leave you open for other attacks?

Yes, WB is powerful compared to most stamina abilities and can be powerful if you are 1) very lucky or 2) very good at battlefield mobility. That says more about the general low power of stamina abilities than it does WB, because WB barely keep up with things like Crystal Frags.

Tdroid · September 2015

Lord-Otto wrote: »

And one last thing...

With far over 200 replies, first of all, I thank everyone for the input, be it pro or contra.
Secondly, I'd like to point out, that apparently there IS a problem with Wrecking Blow, or else this thread wouldn't get that much attention.
Sad thing is, though, that Zenimax, the ones who SHOULD pay attention more than anyone else, are not regarding this at all. Game design at its worst.
=(

That it gets that much attention isn't an indication that there is something wrong it it. It just means people have strong opinions on something.

For myself, the reason I give attention to this thread is that nerfing WB would disproportionally hurt stamina DK and Sorc, while not making a significant change to any other class. That is to say,hurting 2 setups that are already not super strong, that also happen to be part of the damage type(hint, it is stamina builds) that is barely keeping up to begin with.

Tell me, why do you think it is that both Templars and Nightbaldes use their class stamina spam ability over Wrecking Blow? Could it be that Wrecking Blow isn't as overpowered as you and that it is only used because there simply is no other option for Sorcs and Dragonknight?

Leandor · September 2015

Tdroid wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

And one last thing...

With far over 200 replies, first of all, I thank everyone for the input, be it pro or contra.
Secondly, I'd like to point out, that apparently there IS a problem with Wrecking Blow, or else this thread wouldn't get that much attention.
Sad thing is, though, that Zenimax, the ones who SHOULD pay attention more than anyone else, are not regarding this at all. Game design at its worst.
=(

That it gets that much attention isn't an indication that there is something wrong it it. It just means people have strong opinions on something.

For myself, the reason I give attention to this thread is that nerfing WB would disproportionally hurt stamina DK and Sorc, while not making a significant change to any other class. That is to say,hurting 2 setups that are already not super strong, that also happen to be part of the damage type(hint, it is stamina builds) that is barely keeping up to begin with.

Tell me, why do you think it is that both Templars and Nightbaldes use their class stamina spam ability over Wrecking Blow? Could it be that Wrecking Blow isn't as overpowered as you and that it is only used because there simply is no other option for Sorcs and Dragonknight?

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

Lava_Croft · September 2015

The best Wrecking Blows are those that hit you after you ported back to your Shadow Image.

Tdroid · September 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

And one last thing...

With far over 200 replies, first of all, I thank everyone for the input, be it pro or contra.
Secondly, I'd like to point out, that apparently there IS a problem with Wrecking Blow, or else this thread wouldn't get that much attention.
Sad thing is, though, that Zenimax, the ones who SHOULD pay attention more than anyone else, are not regarding this at all. Game design at its worst.
=(

That it gets that much attention isn't an indication that there is something wrong it it. It just means people have strong opinions on something.

For myself, the reason I give attention to this thread is that nerfing WB would disproportionally hurt stamina DK and Sorc, while not making a significant change to any other class. That is to say,hurting 2 setups that are already not super strong, that also happen to be part of the damage type(hint, it is stamina builds) that is barely keeping up to begin with.

Tell me, why do you think it is that both Templars and Nightbaldes use their class stamina spam ability over Wrecking Blow? Could it be that Wrecking Blow isn't as overpowered as you and that it is only used because there simply is no other option for Sorcs and Dragonknight?

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

I don't diagree that the dodging has to be fine tuned in general(though just running through the caster still cancels the thing and can be pretty reliably done given its melee range) and I have no problem with it breaking stealth(because Cloak shenannigans is getting old in general). But that seems to be a minor thing compared to what most people in here are on about.

Making it interuptable would make it useless(unless given a proc like Frags for instant casting). Lowering the damage would make it pretty useless. Removing the CC would make it pretty useless. And all of these solutions would hurt stamina Dragonknight and Sorcerer severely, who have no other options.

At the very least, they cannot nerf Wrecking Blow in any signigicant way until those classes get a good class based stamina single target damage option. And even then I don't think it needs to be nerfed in any significant way.

zornyan · September 2015

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Leandor · September 2015

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

I don't diagree that the dodging has to be fine tuned in general(though just running through the caster still cancels the thing and can be pretty reliably done given its melee range) and I have no problem with it breaking stealth(because Cloak shenannigans is getting old in general). But that seems to be a minor thing compared to what most people in here are on about.

Making it interuptable would make it useless(unless given a proc like Frags for instant casting). Lowering the damage would make it pretty useless. Removing the CC would make it pretty useless. And all of these solutions would hurt stamina Dragonknight and Sorcerer severely, who have no other options.

At the very least, they cannot nerf Wrecking Blow in any signigicant way until those classes get a good class based stamina single target damage option. And even then I don't think it needs to be nerfed in any significant way.

Well, that is what I have proposed since in my first post in this thread, resulting in funny reactions, including a jokster trying to goad me by QQ accusations and baby talk.

Tdroid · September 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

I don't diagree that the dodging has to be fine tuned in general(though just running through the caster still cancels the thing and can be pretty reliably done given its melee range) and I have no problem with it breaking stealth(because Cloak shenannigans is getting old in general). But that seems to be a minor thing compared to what most people in here are on about.

Making it interuptable would make it useless(unless given a proc like Frags for instant casting). Lowering the damage would make it pretty useless. Removing the CC would make it pretty useless. And all of these solutions would hurt stamina Dragonknight and Sorcerer severely, who have no other options.

At the very least, they cannot nerf Wrecking Blow in any signigicant way until those classes get a good class based stamina single target damage option. And even then I don't think it needs to be nerfed in any significant way.

Well, that is what I have proposed since in my first post in this thread, resulting in funny reactions, including a jokster trying to goad me by QQ accusations and baby talk.

Not sure why you engaged me though, since I am clearly addressing the ones who have different problems with the skill than you do. Like making it interuptable, which would pretty much just kill it outright in PvP.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Literally every skill on the 2h is useful, 2h is far stronger than other weapon skill tree's. It's overpowered, believe it or not a nerf doesn't mean they delete the skill ^^ if you actually play properly you can still chain a few abilities together and still have high dps, but people won't be able to spam 1 skill anymore.

Welcome to actual pvp skill.

Leandor · September 2015

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

I don't diagree that the dodging has to be fine tuned in general(though just running through the caster still cancels the thing and can be pretty reliably done given its melee range) and I have no problem with it breaking stealth(because Cloak shenannigans is getting old in general). But that seems to be a minor thing compared to what most people in here are on about.

Making it interuptable would make it useless(unless given a proc like Frags for instant casting). Lowering the damage would make it pretty useless. Removing the CC would make it pretty useless. And all of these solutions would hurt stamina Dragonknight and Sorcerer severely, who have no other options.

At the very least, they cannot nerf Wrecking Blow in any signigicant way until those classes get a good class based stamina single target damage option. And even then I don't think it needs to be nerfed in any significant way.

Well, that is what I have proposed since in my first post in this thread, resulting in funny reactions, including a jokster trying to goad me by QQ accusations and baby talk.

Not sure why you engaged me though, since I am clearly addressing the ones who have different problems with the skill than you do. Like making it interuptable, which would pretty much just kill it outright in PvP.

Basically because of your statement that Nightblades do not significantly gain from WB, whereto I wanted to answer that they are the only class I do have an issue with when it comes to WB.

The rest is just rant. Sorry for that.