Wrecking Blow

Tdroid

Leandor wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Tdroid wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Nightblade has the strongest synergy for using WB since cloak can cover the windup time completely, thus removing the possibility to react. This is one of the modifications I personally propose for WB: make it so that the windup already breaks stealth.

The problem with wrecking blow is not the damage it does or the CC component, it is the fact that the one defense intended to be used against melee attacks (roll dodging) does not work for this ability alone, except if you time it to the nines - which is not readily possible for medium latency connections considering the small time frame it needs to be activated.

I know that there are many people saying otherwise. That may be true in any and all test environments. it is not so in the heat of a battle in IC. That would be the second modification to WB I would like to see: give it the same treatment as concealed weapon got, to bring it in line with any and all other melee attacks in this game.

I don't diagree that the dodging has to be fine tuned in general(though just running through the caster still cancels the thing and can be pretty reliably done given its melee range) and I have no problem with it breaking stealth(because Cloak shenannigans is getting old in general). But that seems to be a minor thing compared to what most people in here are on about.

Making it interuptable would make it useless(unless given a proc like Frags for instant casting). Lowering the damage would make it pretty useless. Removing the CC would make it pretty useless. And all of these solutions would hurt stamina Dragonknight and Sorcerer severely, who have no other options.

At the very least, they cannot nerf Wrecking Blow in any signigicant way until those classes get a good class based stamina single target damage option. And even then I don't think it needs to be nerfed in any significant way.

Well, that is what I have proposed since in my first post in this thread, resulting in funny reactions, including a jokster trying to goad me by QQ accusations and baby talk.

Not sure why you engaged me though, since I am clearly addressing the ones who have different problems with the skill than you do. Like making it interuptable, which would pretty much just kill it outright in PvP.

Basically because of your statement that Nightblades do not significantly gain from WB, whereto I wanted to answer that they are the only class I do have an issue with when it comes to WB.

The rest is just rant. Sorry for that.

No problem. Though I would make the point that your problem with WB here is more of a Cloak problem, and I would sa that anyone who doesn't have a few problems with Cloak by now have not engaged many Nightblades. I find Stamblades more forgivable in general, since they can't permacloak. WB + Cloak aside, which is an issue.

In general though, I think Surprise Attack is still a superior choice for the Nightblade. It just has too good a synergy with the class, with Dark Vigor, Shadow Barroer and inflicting Major Fracture. Also, is instant and was given a significant cost reduction this patch.

Leandor

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

Leandor

double post

Tdroid

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Literally every skill on the 2h is useful, 2h is far stronger than other weapon skill tree's. It's overpowered, believe it or not a nerf doesn't mean they delete the skill ^^ if you actually play properly you can still chain a few abilities together and still have high dps, but people won't be able to spam 1 skill anymore.

Welcome to actual pvp skill.

While I doubt anyone is going to argue that the 2-handed skill line is well balanced with the roles it fills and that it, at least partically, carries pretty much every stamina build, I still have to take issue with calling it overpowered.

My reason for this is simple: Magicka builds are still very powerful and oftentimes outperform stamina builds in various roles. And they can usually operate at range, which is unavailable to 2-handed skills, Gap Rush aside.

And I think the reason for this is very simple: Magicka builds have access to a much wider range of abilities through the class skill since they all have at least 1 magicka version for them to use. And the class skills tend to be pretty powerful and diverse. While stamina characters are much more reliant on their weapon skills because they far fewer options from the class.

That 2-handed compared to other weapon skills in isolation strikes me as a very odd way to go about measuring the usefulness of 2-handed compared to staves, since being a staff wielder synergices much, much better with the class at large, which itself makes it powerful beyond its own skills. On a side note, the other stamina weapons should probably be balanced more after the 2-handed standard, making them better suited for keeping up with magicka.

Tdroid

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

A syngegry I am not a fan of, that much we can agree on. I think Magicka Nightblades' ability to permacloak much of the time can be problematic, but as long as there are consistent counters(like there should be to everything) I am fine with it.

8k + Major Fracture and being set off balance and stunned. The Major Fracture also has an insane duration, which is the real problem IMO. Should have had a duration more comparable with Burning Breath, being a "spam" damage skill.

Ezareth

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Leandor

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Yeah, I know, it was just a figure of speech using you as an example for a nightblade not relying on cloak in general.

Ezareth

Leandor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Yeah, I know, it was just a figure of speech using you as an example for a nightblade not relying on cloak in general.

Yeah when the zerg is chasing you in the sewers you'll be glad to have all of your magicka for Mass Hysteria and Double-take ( =

zornyan

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Literally every skill on the 2h is useful, 2h is far stronger than other weapon skill tree's. It's overpowered, believe it or not a nerf doesn't mean they delete the skill ^^ if you actually play properly you can still chain a few abilities together and still have high dps, but people won't be able to spam 1 skill anymore.

Welcome to actual pvp skill.

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

You won't because crit rush is a gap closer.

Because cleve is an aoe

Rally is a buff

And executioner does neigh on no damage until the targets at low health.

Leandor

zornyan wrote: »

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

Crit rush is the highest damage gap closer in game, and yes, that includes ambush. It also provides the same CC if performed from stealth as ambush does. There are enough stamina blades that use crit rush over ambush to lend credibility to this, even if you are not convinced by the numbers alone.

Rally is a buff that increases the "weapon damage" stat by 20%, so even your light attacks do increased damage while it is active. It also is a long duration heal over time, giving you more time to deal damage over having to waste additional GCDs on heals. It is the single most powerful ability in a 1v1 situation against an opponent not sporting a 2H.

Cleave may be an AoE and low-ish on single target compared to WB, but at the same time provides you with a damage buffer that even though it is small, does help, now that the overflow bug is removed (purportedly). While it will be of little use in a 1v1, this is only because the other skills are even more important than that one.

Executioner is an excellent execute, damagewise on par with killer's blade and behaving similar to all other executes in game (except lolbeam). If you try to get into a 1v1 without a decent execute, you are going to lose.

Your point was?

leepalmer95

zornyan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Literally every skill on the 2h is useful, 2h is far stronger than other weapon skill tree's. It's overpowered, believe it or not a nerf doesn't mean they delete the skill ^^ if you actually play properly you can still chain a few abilities together and still have high dps, but people won't be able to spam 1 skill anymore.

Welcome to actual pvp skill.

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

You won't because crit rush is a gap closer.

Because cleve is an aoe

Rally is a buff

And executioner does neigh on no damage until the targets at low health.

Ty for saying name a skill then naming the entire 2h line.

Crit rush, highest gap closer in the game , you can wb into a crit rush.

Wb ofc.

Executioner deals so much dmg when in execute range, thats the idea.

and you use rally of course? Thats 4 of you skill bar using 2h skills, they are obviously effective otherwise people wouldn't use them.

Now slow in a few skills on your other bar to use and your sorted. Now there no need to spam wb is there? oh wait you'll do it anyway because it's op and easy mode.

mr_wazzabi

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

So what about
Crystal frags spamming
Biting jabs spamming
Radiant destruction spamming
Surprise attack spamming
Ambush spamming
Flurry spamming
Snipe spamming
Talons spamming

They all ok yeah?

Apart from snipe, they don't even come close to the dmg of wb, which is super annoying to actually dodge as well as buffing itself...

Frags - If you've ever died to someone spamming frags then you need to really work on your build.
Biting is annoying but doesn't come close to the dmg of wb
Surprise attack, again not even close to wb dmg
Ambush, again not even close to the dmg.
Flurry.. lol
Talons, yes it's annoying but atleast it doesn't do 12k dmg

Wb does so much dmg, the cc doesn't work on it, cost little stamina to spam, buff's itself, can't be dodged, you can block but it takes so much stamina and another wb will immediately follow.

Why do people feel the need to defend op skills, don't they want to play the game more interestingly instead of spamming 1 button and spamming 1 op skill and feeling like they are any good when they get a kill.

Wb can be easily dodged. Just run towards him and it cancels the channel. Please don't be for nerfing as this affects pve.
Fyi, most skilled nigtblades use surprise attack instead of wb as wb is easy to counter. Sa is instant cast and higher dps.

Biting jabs, surprise attack, even rapid strikes are more reliable than wb in pvp.

A nerf to wb would kill pve. Please don't damage the game.

Vangy

Tdroid wrote: »

Seeing one of the "ideas" for balancing Wrecking Blow, I have an idea too!

Make Wrecking Blow interuptable like people want, remove the Empower buff and remove the stun(but leave the knockback in there), but give it a 35% chance when using other stamina abilities to proc an instant cast with 20% damage increase and 50% cost reduction, just like Frags. This would essentially make it a melee, stamina version of Crystal Frags. I bet this would get even more complaints that how it is now.

On a side note, I do think that DWs needs access to a strong single target damage skill.

I actually kinda love this idea. Just need another stamina skill that is reliable to use as a filler while i spam for WB procs. That would be OP. Me like. +1

Tdroid

Leandor wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

Crit rush is the highest damage gap closer in game, and yes, that includes ambush. It also provides the same CC if performed from stealth as ambush does. There are enough stamina blades that use crit rush over ambush to lend credibility to this, even if you are not convinced by the numbers alone.

Rally is a buff that increases the "weapon damage" stat by 20%, so even your light attacks do increased damage while it is active. It also is a long duration heal over time, giving you more time to deal damage over having to waste additional GCDs on heals. It is the single most powerful ability in a 1v1 situation against an opponent not sporting a 2H.

Cleave may be an AoE and low-ish on single target compared to WB, but at the same time provides you with a damage buffer that even though it is small, does help, now that the overflow bug is removed (purportedly). While it will be of little use in a 1v1, this is only because the other skills are even more important than that one.

Executioner is an excellent execute, damagewise on par with killer's blade and behaving similar to all other executes in game (except lolbeam). If you try to get into a 1v1 without a decent execute, you are going to lose.

Your point was?

2-handed is easily the best designed weapon skill line in the game. Had the other stamina weapons gotten that sort of treatment, maybe stamina wouldn't need a year of buffing before it got pretty good. Rally is pretty good, but I don't think it is overpowered by itself now that DW has their own Brutality buff. What is a problem for the other stamina builds, however, is that Rally is one of two reliable stamina based self-heals and the other is a DoT. That's the real problem. Change that and you'll likely see a lot more DWing and bows.

I don't think the staffs need that sort of skill line balance though, since they have pretty much the entire class available to do most things. At least, not until the selection in Stamina class abilities match that of the magic ones. When(if?) that happens, giving resto and desto staffs better internal balance would be fair.

And I also use Crit Rush over Ambush. Cheaper, for one. Hits harder too. Still miss the teleport aspect of it though, since Crit Rush is more picky about when it will let you Gap Close. Ambush lets you jump up and down floors in buildings and stuff, which is pretty cool.

zornyan

Leandor wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

Crit rush is the highest damage gap closer in game, and yes, that includes ambush. It also provides the same CC if performed from stealth as ambush does. There are enough stamina blades that use crit rush over ambush to lend credibility to this, even if you are not convinced by the numbers alone.

Rally is a buff that increases the "weapon damage" stat by 20%, so even your light attacks do increased damage while it is active. It also is a long duration heal over time, giving you more time to deal damage over having to waste additional GCDs on heals. It is the single most powerful ability in a 1v1 situation against an opponent not sporting a 2H.

Cleave may be an AoE and low-ish on single target compared to WB, but at the same time provides you with a damage buffer that even though it is small, does help, now that the overflow bug is removed (purportedly). While it will be of little use in a 1v1, this is only because the other skills are even more important than that one.

Executioner is an excellent execute, damagewise on par with killer's blade and behaving similar to all other executes in game (except lolbeam). If you try to get into a 1v1 without a decent execute, you are going to lose.

Your point was?

My point was none of them are dps skills?

Without wrecking blow how do you get an enemy to execute range?

You going to run back and crit rush them to death over a year?

Or just cleve them to oblivion.

My point is the same as everyone on here. 2 handed as one dps move, the others are 'special' in the sense of executes,aoes and gap closers.

Tdroid

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just give me a staff/magicka version, it would be fine for me, then, spamming your backs into the ground...
And don't give me that stam-dps-dk excuse. What dps do I have, as a magicka dk? Flame Lash? Lol, that's not even remotely close, especially after the recent nerf.
You're hilarious here! You're even saying that WB is better than any other stamina skill... That IS the definition of overpoweredness, my young unknowing friends.

Erm what other stam move does a 2 hander have? Maybe instead of blindly going with the herd think about it for a second. There is no other offensive move in 2 hander. Cleave is a weak aoe, and executioner is an executioner. Crit rush is a gap closer.

That's it, it's the only choice because there are no other single target dps moves!

You have every single class skill as a magika morph, and destro skill lines.

That's about 3 times what stam users have

Literally every skill on the 2h is useful, 2h is far stronger than other weapon skill tree's. It's overpowered, believe it or not a nerf doesn't mean they delete the skill ^^ if you actually play properly you can still chain a few abilities together and still have high dps, but people won't be able to spam 1 skill anymore.

Welcome to actual pvp skill.

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

You won't because crit rush is a gap closer.

Because cleve is an aoe

Rally is a buff

And executioner does neigh on no damage until the targets at low health.

Ty for saying name a skill then naming the entire 2h line.

Crit rush, highest gap closer in the game , you can wb into a crit rush.

Wb ofc.

Executioner deals so much dmg when in execute range, thats the idea.

and you use rally of course? Thats 4 of you skill bar using 2h skills, they are obviously effective otherwise people wouldn't use them.

Now slow in a few skills on your other bar to use and your sorted. Now there no need to spam wb is there? oh wait you'll do it anyway because it's op and easy mode.

Rally is one of the 2 things I think are primarily responsible for 2-handed being a dominant choice for many stamina builds. It is one of two reliable stamina emergency heal available to everyone, the other being Vigor, which is a HoT.

The other factor, I think, is the lack of class skills to use for many, since most of them are still magicka exclusive. Some should be, naturally, but more freedom to choose for Stamina Builds would probably go a long way in reducing the number of 2-handed skills on a stamina fighter's bar.

So, my solution would be to give more class abilities(like Lava Whip) a stamina morph so all classes have some solid single target for both magicka and stamina, and to give Dual Wield a reliable emergency heal. I think that would go a long way to mix things up again.

Edit: Also, naturally, fix the bugs. That CC immunity isn't working right needs to be fixed, and that problem is not unique to Wrecking Blow.

Armitas

I don't think giving dks a stam morph of whip will make much difference in their preference of using WB. Magicka DKs don't choose whip, they are just stuck with it. Normally whips low base damage would be fine because we can apply two dots, but the dots are so trivially circumvented that you really only have whip. In the case of a stam dk he can get the same base damage as crystal frags in WB, thus giving his class a much needed nuke. It's one of the few things holding DK together as a class worth playing right now. They have broken just about everything in the DK while showing no signs of concern or interest in feedback.

MisterBigglesworth

WORKING. AS. INTENDED.

Armitas

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

WORKING. AS. INTENDED.

What movie is that?

Leandor

Even though I haven't seen it, it could be from the TV adaption of Game of Thrones...

Tdroid

Armitas wrote: »

I don't think giving dks a stam morph of whip will make much difference in their preference of using WB. Magicka DKs don't choose whip, they are just stuck with it. Normally whips low base damage would be fine because we can apply two dots, but the dots are so trivially circumvented that you really only have whip. In the case of a stam dk he can get the same base damage as crystal frags in WB, thus giving his class a much needed nuke. It's one of the few things holding DK together as a class worth playing right now. They have broken just about everything in the DK while showing no signs of concern or interest in feedback.

Fair enough, the DK seems to have problems overall these days. 1 year of nerfing does that to a class. And that goes beyond any specific skill line for that class, or that could be used to support it.

But my main point is that the prevalence of 2-handed, and thus Wrecking Blow, seems to be tied to the fact that 1) there isn't really a realistic option to not go with Rally for most, because where else will you get a reliable stamina heal that is not only a HoT? and 2) because Rally is so important to so many stamina builds, they have to tailor their offensive skills after their weapon choice, which means Wrecking Blow in many many cases, since DKs and Sorcs doesn't have anything remotely capable of filling its shoes.

Also, bugs need to be fixed, so things work as intended.

Khivas_Carrick

Funny that everybody mentions these things about WB, while I've altogether stopped using it because for some reason whenever I try to weave heavy attacks into it or even simply spam it, the damn animation glitches out and doesn't carry through.

mr_wazzabi

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Surprise attack is an instant cast that cannot be dodged. Wb is predictable and can be dodge rolled or avoided by running towards the attacker.

Surprise attack has higher dps. In the time it takes to land 1 wb, you can land 2 surprise attacks.

The only advantage wb has is the knockdown and stealth damagr.

Ezareth

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Surprise attack is an instant cast that cannot be dodged. Wb is predictable and can be dodge rolled or avoided by running towards the attacker.

Surprise attack has higher dps. In the time it takes to land 1 wb, you can land 2 surprise attacks.

The only advantage wb has is the knockdown and stealth damagr.

Surprise attack can be dodged, I do it all day. The only thing that couldn't be dodged was the concealed weapon (magicka) morph and that was fixed in 2.0.

It is affected by the same GCD you find in any other ability. 1 Second. The only difference is wrecking blow lands at the end of the GCD while SA lands at the start. Also WB has no stealth damage advantage, I think you mean low health bonus damage.

I also think what many people are forgetting about Wrecking blow and 2 handers in general are the passives. Most of the nightblades I see running SA aren't doing it on the two hander bar so they're losing Battle Rush, which for me works out to almost 4000 stamina returned for every kill.

Ezareth

Armitas wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

WORKING. AS. INTENDED.

What movie is that?

It's Jon Snow killing a White Walker in probably the greatest episode of the entire series of Game of Thrones.

mr_wazzabi

Ezareth wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Surprise attack is an instant cast that cannot be dodged. Wb is predictable and can be dodge rolled or avoided by running towards the attacker.

Surprise attack has higher dps. In the time it takes to land 1 wb, you can land 2 surprise attacks.

The only advantage wb has is the knockdown and stealth damagr.

Surprise attack can be dodged, I do it all day. The only thing that couldn't be dodged was the concealed weapon (magicka) morph and that was fixed in 2.0.

It is affected by the same GCD you find in any other ability. 1 Second. The only difference is wrecking blow lands at the end of the GCD while SA lands at the start. Also WB has no stealth damage advantage, I think you mean low health bonus damage.

I also think what many people are forgetting about Wrecking blow and 2 handers in general are the passives. Most of the nightblades I see running SA aren't doing it on the two hander bar so they're losing Battle Rush, which for me works out to almost 4000 stamina returned for every kill.

WB can oneshot every nonboss npc, while sa can only oneshot non-tanks.
Wb has a 1 second channel time. Sa is instant cast. I can cast 2 sa in the time of 1 wb, or close, even if there is a gcd, which i don't ever notice in the game.

mr_wazzabi

I meant to say wb can oneshot npc from stealth

Ezareth

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I also don't think cloak is a problem, honestly. With the damage reduction, I can live with the cloak blades, it's fine. And since I have played a nightblade for more than a year, I also know that nerfing cloak is not possible without completely remodeling the class, otherwise nightblades may as well be deleted, sad but honest truth. (*)

My issue is with the synergy between WB and cloak, and only that.

From my experience, a surprise attack from stealth is easier to react on than a WB, mainly because the SA I get top out at 8k whereas WB tops currently at 12k inside IC for my light armor chars.


(*) I know, @Ezareth ' "in your face" nightblade would like to have a word with me, but honestly, that playstyle is DK with teleport strike more than an assassin type playstyle.

I use Crit-charge over Ambush and Wrecking Blow over surprise attack. Since I don't cloak and I also piercing mark my enemies the advantages of SA over WB just aren't there. I've just never enjoyed the weak damage you do with SA, it's almost comparable to Deep Slash which I run on my other bar.

I think SA is definitely viable in many playstles however, but in the game of insane damage reduction and vampires, having a high damage wrecking blow that gets bonus damage against low health targets and has a built in CC component as well that is spammable wrecking blow is going to trump any other abilities in kicking ass and taking names on the stamina front.

Surprise attack is an instant cast that cannot be dodged. Wb is predictable and can be dodge rolled or avoided by running towards the attacker.

Surprise attack has higher dps. In the time it takes to land 1 wb, you can land 2 surprise attacks.

The only advantage wb has is the knockdown and stealth damagr.

Surprise attack can be dodged, I do it all day. The only thing that couldn't be dodged was the concealed weapon (magicka) morph and that was fixed in 2.0.

It is affected by the same GCD you find in any other ability. 1 Second. The only difference is wrecking blow lands at the end of the GCD while SA lands at the start. Also WB has no stealth damage advantage, I think you mean low health bonus damage.

I also think what many people are forgetting about Wrecking blow and 2 handers in general are the passives. Most of the nightblades I see running SA aren't doing it on the two hander bar so they're losing Battle Rush, which for me works out to almost 4000 stamina returned for every kill.

WB can oneshot every nonboss npc, while sa can only oneshot non-tanks.
Wb has a 1 second channel time. Sa is instant cast. I can cast 2 sa in the time of 1 wb, or close, even if there is a gcd, which i don't ever notice in the game.

You can 1-shot most mobs in the game from stealth using any high damage attack. I kill the imps in 1 shot from stealth using deep slash. All physical attacks are guaranteed to crit from stealth and get bonus stealth damage. As wrecking blow has the highest physical damage of any ability in the game it does the most damage from stealth. Not that isn't really obvious there.

WB also has a 7 meter range to SA's 5 meter range so I can start casting it before you can even hit me with SA. Either way I already point out that SA's damage is front loaded and WB's damage is end-loaded. SA is more of a sure and steady DPS choice where WB is a much higher damage choice that takes far more skill to line up correctly.

As I said, each ability has its uses depending on your playstyle. When I try my playstyle with SA I feel like I'm hitting like a wet noodle, even if it eventually gets the job done.

leepalmer95

zornyan wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Are you just trolling for fun now. Name one single skill in the 2 handed tree line other than wrecking blow that can be used 1v1 and to do any sort of damage..

Crit rush is the highest damage gap closer in game, and yes, that includes ambush. It also provides the same CC if performed from stealth as ambush does. There are enough stamina blades that use crit rush over ambush to lend credibility to this, even if you are not convinced by the numbers alone.

Rally is a buff that increases the "weapon damage" stat by 20%, so even your light attacks do increased damage while it is active. It also is a long duration heal over time, giving you more time to deal damage over having to waste additional GCDs on heals. It is the single most powerful ability in a 1v1 situation against an opponent not sporting a 2H.

Cleave may be an AoE and low-ish on single target compared to WB, but at the same time provides you with a damage buffer that even though it is small, does help, now that the overflow bug is removed (purportedly). While it will be of little use in a 1v1, this is only because the other skills are even more important than that one.

Executioner is an excellent execute, damagewise on par with killer's blade and behaving similar to all other executes in game (except lolbeam). If you try to get into a 1v1 without a decent execute, you are going to lose.

Your point was?

My point was none of them are dps skills?

Without wrecking blow how do you get an enemy to execute range?

You going to run back and crit rush them to death over a year?

Or just cleve them to oblivion.

My point is the same as everyone on here. 2 handed as one dps move, the others are 'special' in the sense of executes,aoes and gap closers.

Heres an example of a basic rotation using on 2h skills....

Rally is up ofc: LA = Light attack
HA = Heavy attack

Crit rush -> La --> WB (animation cancel with HA) --> Crit rush --> LA Then either Execute them if they are in range or WB them 1 more if they are not and then execute.

This is just basic with any class abilities, without any switching bars etc... You do more dmg, you don't sit there spamming 1 ability, you gain more ult and use less stamina. Also it's harder to hit someone thats not spamming 1 ability.

But hey it does more dmg and takes more skill than just doing.

Crit rush --> WB --> WB --> Wb --> WB --> WB ...... Executioner!

Though most won't use 1 skill line, they'll use bow mix in LA/HA with psn weaves or maybe a magnum shot to use crit rush again etc...


But hey it's obvious spamming Wb is the only thing a 2h can do right?

Lord-Otto

Right, because it frees up valuable slots and makes things easier.

For the last time, guys, you don't just dodge WB that easily. You don't make it to and through your opponent in half a second from 7 meter range. That's absurd. And mind you, behind a WB user is usually another WB user. Throw in snares and roots to the equation and you see how dodging WB is very difficult, actually.

Stamina characters are not supposed to have much variety. Who... who told you that? stamina skills hit harder, thanks to LA being weak, and gain stealth damage and most stamina skill lines offer great burst damage, which is the very clear go-to in PvP.
Magicka users get DoT. Lol.
You don't have a personal heal, but there's always a healer behind you on the field. Also, your magicka can be used for utility exclusively, and if it's drained, there's no problem. If a magicka user has used all of his/her stamina, he's dead. No block, dodge, break free. You're dead.
Oh, and classes... DKs have Dragon Blood, why Momentum? Sorcs have shields, and pretty darn strong ones! Templar, I dunno, has a healing skill line. Nightblades have phenomenal burst damage and should be very squishy to compensate. They are not, thanks to their healing. Is it really just a miraculous coincidence that we see so many Nightblades in PvP?
And many class skills have spectacular stamina morphs, also.

What do I have, as a magicka DK? No execution, no brutal damage spike, magic damage is easily mitigated and light armor still weak. I have a nerfed healing, a dps that can't even kill a proper Nightbalde thanks to Momentum, and a tiny bit of CC with Talons and Petrify that staminas just break free from.
I have my Whip as a damage source. Lol.
If you give me my magicka Wrecking Blow and Momentum, Critical Rush and Executioner, then we can talk about balancing. Keep denying, but you're not fooling anyone here who has ever set a footstep into Cyrodiil.