Wrecking Blow

Minno · September 2015

yodased wrote: »

I think the problem stems from the way CC breaking works and how WB really seems to be breaking the CC immunity functions of the game.

When you get hit with a WB there is a high probability that you will be dead very quickly from the follow up WBs.

Look at other spammable close range DPS:

Whip
Concealed Weapon
Rapid Strikes
Cleave
Jabs (this one is iffy too, but nowhere as bad as WB since nerf)
Steel Tornado
Executioner

These all allow for CC break and if you get "caught" in one of them it's not the "chain reaction" that one WB causes.

You can and will win by spamming the above skills without doubt, but they don't offer the same almost guaranteed kill on one hit that WB does.

Yes i know, walk forward, but that isn't so easy when you are snared or rooted or stunned.

They need to look into the CC immunity timing with WB and it will be fine.

At least jabs is considered a DOT and mitigated by Thick Skinned CP.

revonine · September 2015

Make it interrupt-able by bash/crushing shock/poison arrow and I would not care about it.
While your at it fix up the wonky CC immunity timers that become obvious when facing a spammer of this skill. I've been caught off guard and literally juggled like I was playing Street Fighter by my opponent before.

Minno · September 2015

revonine wrote: »

Make it interrupt-able by bash/crushing shock/poison arrow and I would not care about it.
While your at it fix up the wonky CC immunity timers that become obvious when facing a spammer of this skill. I've been caught off guard and literally juggled like I was playing Street Fighter by my opponent before.

This, except maybe not range? Bash should be enough to counter it (as it does in pve).

zornyan · September 2015

revonine wrote: »

Make it interrupt-able by bash/crushing shock/poison arrow and I would not care about it.
While your at it fix up the wonky CC immunity timers that become obvious when facing a spammer of this skill. I've been caught off guard and literally juggled like I was playing Street Fighter by my opponent before.

Long as they make suprise attack interruptable and have a cast time, and ambush, and just about every other move in the game...Oh why not ultimates too!

Zsymon · September 2015

The ONLY reason why Wrecking Blow is used so much, is because stamina builds have lost all defensive options, leaving only the spamming of Wrecking Blow as a viable means of fighting, to try and do as much damage as they can before dying, as they have no way to stop incoming hits anymore.

They have no damage shields, they have no block, they have no dodge, they have no burst heals.. all they CAN do is just try and outdamage their opponent and hope he dies first.

Wrecking Blow did not get stronger with the new patch, nothing about it has changed. It still does the same damage, which is LESS than Crystal Fragments for example, and it still has a 1 second cast time.

QuebraRegra · September 2015

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

apostate9 · September 2015

Lord-Otto wrote: »

*sigh*

So, how much longer are we gonna pretend this skill is not completely overpowered and worse, broken?
Or is there a secret reason why 50% of all incoming attacks are WBs?

Just look at it: as much/higher damage than an ultimate (meteor, for example), can be spammed, little cost with only mediocre gear, uninterruptable, insane cc, cc is even broken and will not always grant cc immunity, and insane range/phantom range. And of course, stamina being already overpowered enough thanks to nirnhoned and useless light armor.
And what are the downsides? 0.8 seconds casting time, that is thanks to lag more like 0.5, which is effectively instant. A supposed cancel by walking through the caster, which is just not doable in 0.5 seconds. That is all.

Alright, I get it, Zenimax, you have to please the little kiddies out there that want a Devil May Cry Online. Cool. But please don't forget there are others out there that enjoy more complex games and are very frustrated about your poor, POOR balancing. And if you think now I have to learn to adapt or play, last campaign was rank 3 for me... If I have to l2p, then may god have mercy upon the other 99%.

Just double the stamina cost - at least. Still fun, still works, less cheesy, and more realistic - it's a two-hander, you just don't swing it like a dagger, and neither has it ever been supposed to.

It's fine. Stop crying.

zornyan · September 2015

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Or maybe we have zero other options? Seriously as a stamina based dk, what attacks should I be using on my 2 handed bar? 1v1 so cleve is useless, executioner is well, an executioner, rally is a heal, and crit rush a gap closer. Maybe I should only use heavy attacks?

Stam dk's have basically zero offensive morphs, we don't have biting jabs, we don't have ambush and suprise attacks.

What else can I actually use then? Or is it now that a stam dk can't use a 2 hander without being a scrub?

Kobaal · September 2015

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Zergs dont spam WB. If you run into a Zerg and get WB'd it was a pug clinger on. Zergs use AOE's like Steel Tornado, Impulse, Sap.

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

*skill*

You can edit your posts...

QuebraRegra · September 2015

Kobaal wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Zergs dont spam WB. If you run into a Zerg and get WB'd it was a pug clinger on. Zergs use AOE's like Steel Tornado, Impulse, Sap.

I disagree... not a pug clinger on... who groups overlapping WB. How long did you think it would take for them to adopt an exploitative power en-mass?

I assume posting a vid would be naming? There's certainly no shame when they do it in game. You know who you are.

QuebraRegra · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Or maybe we have zero other options? Seriously as a stamina based dk, what attacks should I be using on my 2 handed bar? 1v1 so cleve is useless, executioner is well, an executioner, rally is a heal, and crit rush a gap closer. Maybe I should only use heavy attacks?

Stam dk's have basically zero offensive morphs, we don't have biting jabs, we don't have ambush and suprise attacks.

What else can I actually use then? Or is it now that a stam dk can't use a 2 hander without being a scrub?

sad but true... the fault is with how the power works in PVP, particularly the CC issues. You should make a magicka DK

apostate9 · September 2015

Wrecking blow is fine. Thanks for asking.

Colosso-monstro · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

6 out of 8 of my deaths today were from wrecking blow and it's God like CC. Such a lively and balanced Pvp experience on eso.

On a serious note, it's an uninterruptible almost instant cast CC that does upwards of 9k. It shouldn't even be an argument about how ridiculous it actually is. There shouldn't be a skill where I can hand my v14 character over to a newbie and him be able to get kill after kill by spamming 1 skill.

What about 20k crystal frags that is actually instantly cast?

Or what about 20k snipes that can kill you from 10miles away?

Or 15k biting jabs that can constantly cc you?

Or even the 15k suprise attacks?

They are all OK yeah?

Wrecking blow barely ever kills me, you can block it, you can dodge it, you can just walk through them to cancel it.

Everytime I ever use it, it either gets blocked or dodged, so I don't really see how it's op..

Crystal frags is slow moving and can't be spam casted as an instant so you're wrong there. I don't know much about biting jabs. Surprise attacks are a bit ridiculous in my opinion as well. I will say that all of those are class skills too but for WB there's a huge amount of users.

By the way I don't understand the tone, grow up a little bro bro.

zornyan · September 2015

Frags isn't slow moving when you anywhere near close range, and with people spamming abilities it can be near enough insta casted every second or so, as it proc's far too often. Again it hits harder than wrecking blow

Biting jabs can do neigh on the same damage as wrecking blow. Whilst puncturing sweeps also heals you for 40% of the damage.

Or snipe? An ability that hits harder, and can be used 3 times before you even reach your opponent.

There's tons of skills that do the same/more damage in a shorter amount of time. The only people that complain about wrecking blow really annoy me, as it's a big long windup they shouts "someone cc me I'm defenceless as I slowly bring my sword back" and they can't use one of the many ways to prevent being hit by it.

Tdroid · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Or maybe we have zero other options? Seriously as a stamina based dk, what attacks should I be using on my 2 handed bar? 1v1 so cleve is useless, executioner is well, an executioner, rally is a heal, and crit rush a gap closer. Maybe I should only use heavy attacks?

Stam dk's have basically zero offensive morphs, we don't have biting jabs, we don't have ambush and suprise attacks.

What else can I actually use then? Or is it now that a stam dk can't use a 2 hander without being a scrub?

Pretty much this. Wrecking Blow is the only even remotely valid option for a stamina DK and Sorcerer. Nightblades have their Surprise Attack and Ambush, which are really powerful. Templar has Jabs, which can be really powerful if used correctly. The DK has... Unstable Flames? Not awful in PvE in my experience, but unreliable in PvP, which requires a lot more burst.

Just give the DK a stamina morph to Lava Whip(and something similar for the Sorc) and you'll see a lot of the Wrecking Blow spammers disappear. Heck, you'd likely even see Critical Rush being replaced by Stampede on DKs, since it would have some synergy with a stamina Lava Whip.

QuebraRegra · September 2015

apostate9 wrote: »

Wrecking blow is fine. Thanks for asking.

For scrubs yes....

R U self identifying? That's lovely.

QuebraRegra · September 2015

Tdroid wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

food for thought:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/wrecking-blow-cc-immunity-is-broken-with-proof/p1

The broken CC thing is annoying... That said 1v1 it's not as big a problem, but now that it's the meta, multiply that by entire zergs spamming this, and tell me if you think its outta control?

100% chance anybody denying this is a WB zerg spamming scrub...

Or maybe we have zero other options? Seriously as a stamina based dk, what attacks should I be using on my 2 handed bar? 1v1 so cleve is useless, executioner is well, an executioner, rally is a heal, and crit rush a gap closer. Maybe I should only use heavy attacks?

Stam dk's have basically zero offensive morphs, we don't have biting jabs, we don't have ambush and suprise attacks.

What else can I actually use then? Or is it now that a stam dk can't use a 2 hander without being a scrub?

Pretty much this. Wrecking Blow is the only even remotely valid option for a stamina DK and Sorcerer. Nightblades have their Surprise Attack and Ambush, which are really powerful. Templar has Jabs, which can be really powerful if used correctly. The DK has... Unstable Flames? Not awful in PvE in my experience, but unreliable in PvP, which requires a lot more burst.

Just give the DK a stamina morph to Lava Whip(and something similar for the Sorc) and you'll see a lot of the Wrecking Blow spammers disappear. Heck, you'd likely even see Critical Rush being replaced by Stampede on DKs, since it would have some synergy with a stamina Lava Whip.

I support this, and in a larger sense... Every morph needs an equivalent option for ST or MAGICKA. Unfortunately we get a lot of "LOTUS FAN" nonsense. This limits builds and creates the cookie-cutter metas.

Throw in the exploits associated with some skills (CC!), and the analogy if steroids in American baseball. Gotta use it if you wanna be competitive.

Hmm, maybe I'll just start with my own WB and CRITICAL rush spamming? Hey, 300 players can't be wrong, right?

It'd be interesting to see the stats on how many players have what skills on their bars... might be useful balancing info for ZOS.

Colosso-monstro · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Frags isn't slow moving when you anywhere near close range, and with people spamming abilities it can be near enough insta casted every second or so, as it proc's far too often. Again it hits harder than wrecking blow

Biting jabs can do neigh on the same damage as wrecking blow. Whilst puncturing sweeps also heals you for 40% of the damage.

Or snipe? An ability that hits harder, and can be used 3 times before you even reach your opponent.

There's tons of skills that do the same/more damage in a shorter amount of time. The only people that complain about wrecking blow really annoy me, as it's a big long windup they shouts "someone cc me I'm defenceless as I slowly bring my sword back" and they can't use one of the many ways to prevent being hit by it.

Do you use wrecking blow?

chevalierknight · September 2015

yodased wrote: »

I think the problem stems from the way CC breaking works and how WB really seems to be breaking the CC immunity functions of the game.

When you get hit with a WB there is a high probability that you will be dead very quickly from the follow up WBs.

Look at other spammable close range DPS:

Whip
Concealed Weapon
Rapid Strikes
Cleave
Jabs (this one is iffy too, but nowhere as bad as WB since nerf)
Steel Tornado
Executioner

These all allow for CC break and if you get "caught" in one of them it's not the "chain reaction" that one WB causes.

You can and will win by spamming the above skills without doubt, but they don't offer the same almost guaranteed kill on one hit that WB does.

Yes i know, walk forward, but that isn't so easy when you are snared or rooted or stunned.

They need to look into the CC immunity timing with WB and it will be fine.

Yep the only problem with skill is cc immunity fix that and the skill will be fine

Lylith · September 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Lylith wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The thing is WB can kill even if it did 50 dmg per attack.

Its the bug that prevents cc immunity that makes wb broken (literally)

The ability is fine, its the bug, fix the bug and wb becomes like any other of the listed abilities

exactly.

all this advice for countering wb means jack**** when your cc immunity is 'wrecked.'

nothing beats spamming this or that counter and having absolutely NO effect on your character.

There is one very good way to break the CC of wrecking blow....DO NOT GET HIT BY THE CHARGE UP ABILITY THAT LOCKS THE CASTER INTO THE ATTACK. how do you not see this kill coming?

lately it seems to come at me while i'm busy playing 1vx with mobs in i.c. or catch a cc or gap closer/stun out of nowhere.

zornyan · September 2015

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Frags isn't slow moving when you anywhere near close range, and with people spamming abilities it can be near enough insta casted every second or so, as it proc's far too often. Again it hits harder than wrecking blow

Biting jabs can do neigh on the same damage as wrecking blow. Whilst puncturing sweeps also heals you for 40% of the damage.

Or snipe? An ability that hits harder, and can be used 3 times before you even reach your opponent.

There's tons of skills that do the same/more damage in a shorter amount of time. The only people that complain about wrecking blow really annoy me, as it's a big long windup they shouts "someone cc me I'm defenceless as I slowly bring my sword back" and they can't use one of the many ways to prevent being hit by it.

Do you use wrecking blow?

Pve I use it as a single target dps, pvp it barely gets touched, it gets me killed far far too often, when I have used it in the past every single time it just gets blocked/dodge rolled. Far more kills with my other skills.

Zsymon · September 2015

Just because a skill gets used a lot, doesn't mean it's overpowered, there is a gigantic difference. In this case it just means many stamina builds simply don't have anything else. Only Templars and Nightblades get an alternative, while Sorcerers and Dragonknights only have Wrecking Blow.

Brrrofski · September 2015

I get killed waaaaay less by wb than snipe or any of it's morphs.

For me, that's the only annoying spammed abiloty

zornyan · September 2015

I love when people get salty about a skill, if it's ridiculously op why do I barely ever see it in my death recap? Why when I use it do I get far less kills than using something like puncturing sweeps alongside invasion?

Why do people always block/dodge it? Why is it ridiculously easy for me to block?

It's a basic learn to play issue, anyone getting owned by someone spamming one skill needs to re-evaluate themselves and actually learn to play the game.

Swindy · September 2015

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

6 out of 8 of my deaths today were from wrecking blow and it's God like CC. Such a lively and balanced Pvp experience on eso.

On a serious note, it's an uninterruptible almost instant cast CC that does upwards of 9k. It shouldn't even be an argument about how ridiculous it actually is. There shouldn't be a skill where I can hand my v14 character over to a newbie and him be able to get kill after kill by spamming 1 skill.

17k+ followed by a 11k+ and I couldn't move between them, and didn't see the initial wind up as he, I assume, was cloaked.
All credit to the AD VR14 who killed me...I'd seen him prior, but ignored him as we were in a delve and I assumed he ignored me also initially so quid quo pro.
I'm a st NB DW/bow as I dislike 2H...but even my (solo Pve guy here) delve boss setup is 2H with rally & aoe/shield (name?) & heavy...sad, but true, the medium st DW/bow NB cannot live alone in the world of bosses.

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

I love when people get salty about a skill, if it's ridiculously op why do I barely ever see it in my death recap? Why when I use it do I get far less kills than using something like puncturing sweeps alongside invasion?

Why do people always block/dodge it? Why is it ridiculously easy for me to block?

It's a basic learn to play issue, anyone getting owned by someone spamming one skill needs to re-evaluate themselves and actually learn to play the game.

amen! this is a clear example of players making excuses for their poor play by crying op. we've seen this before on this forum. its tired now, everything is OP if it kills you because you haven't learnt how to defend against it, and by the way some of you have responded it appears that you refuse to learn as well. You have set yourself to believe the skill is OP, or that only scrubs use it, when in fact you are the one getting beat by a skill you see coming almost a second and a half before it even hits you. And you wonder why players spam it, its clear, you use whats effective against your opponent. if you can't block or dodge the glorified heavy attack and you're going to let me charge an ability and hit you with it over and over then why wouldn't you spam it.

And just because a player is defending a skill doesn't make them a spammer either. I don't use wrecking blow on good players, I know I won't hit them with it. Its pointless to use the skill against anyone who plays well cause it takes too long to wind up and connect. Against bad players who either never block or dodge and low stamina users who are chasing some insane magic pool and haven't learned that this game requires effective use of both pools of resources, then yes I'll use it on them because they can't defend against it. I'm not taking advantage of the "OP skill", I'm taking advantage of my opponent. I'm using their deficiency as a player against them, it has nothing to do with the skill itself.

Before anyone ask...How do I know if its a good player or not? If I use wrecking blow once early in the fight and you don't not make me pay for locking myself into a second and a half animation and I still connect with it, then you best believe you will be seeing that skill again. Good players immediately make you pay for that kind of blatant disrespect/ mistake, they make you regret standing locked in an animation for that long. Bad players get hit and cry OP. Again not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, I'm just telling my thought process when I play.

Armitas · September 2015

So my shield that used to do 12k now does 6k and WB that use to do 12k now does 17k. Interesting update.

Rune_Relic · September 2015

Brantleyx wrote: »

This section, Combat & Character Mechanics is becoming a "Nerf this, Nerf that". Like seriously, They read these threads and take things into consideration.. Wrecking blow is no where near OP. Doesn't need to be nerf, Damn near is the only thing saving DKs. Stop looking complain and dodge it.

Then by your own admission it is way more powerful than any other option.
vis-a-vis OP

zornyan · September 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Brantleyx wrote: »

This section, Combat & Character Mechanics is becoming a "Nerf this, Nerf that". Like seriously, They read these threads and take things into consideration.. Wrecking blow is no where near OP. Doesn't need to be nerf, Damn near is the only thing saving DKs. Stop looking complain and dodge it.

Then by your own admission it is way more powerful than any other option.
vis-a-vis OP

No just no...we have NO OTHER OPTION!

Dk's have zero stamina morphs? Except one dot, seriously what the hell is a stam dk supposed to do? Gdb is barely effective as a heal, unless your in "hey hit me with any executioner and I'm dead" range.

We have no offensive stam abilities, magika? Yea great, stamina sucks though, my only heals on my stam dk come from rally, and vigor, so I have to have 2 hander otherwise I'm screwed, please in your infinite wisdom tell me what other skills dk possess that can be used with a stam build?

Oh and whilst your at it please tell me what other 2 hander ability we can use? As the only other options are an aoe, a self heal, an executioner and a gap closer.