Wrecking Blow

MmmmTofu · September 2015

dlepi24 wrote: »

MmmmTofu wrote: »

dlepi24 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

The thing is, we can't blame these spammers. They were given these tools, and they are effective, obviously. One of the biggest problems I have is after dodging it a few times (which isn't hard to do), I find myself out of stamina. When they realise this the talons come out and it gets spammed even more, so they are just playing hacky sack with my body, and then finish me up with 3 quick executioners.

I feel like what you just described is someone outplaying you (not trying to be rude). The object of a battle is to outlast your opponent and normally that's done when you run someone out of resources. As a stamina DK I know that when I fight a sorc I'm not going to out DPS them from range and my only option is to get close to them which normally means I have to go into their mines and take damage. I know that most sorcs don't have a lot of stamina so keeping them CC'd every 6 seconds is the only way I'm going to kill them. I know that usually I'm not going to kill them for at least a minute because they have their initial stam + a tri-pot with a 45 second cooldown. That cooldown window is when they run out of stam and can't break CC and then that's my opportunity to wrecking blow spam without them being able to shield stack. So did I use a cheap skill to kill them? Probably. But I played a game of chess where I waited and managed my resources better than him and because of that he's dead and I'm not.

So, you roll dodging constantly instead of blocking some of the attacks or CC'ing him or BOL/streaking away made you run out of resources. Once you run out of stam as a sorc (or any class really) you're pretty much dead.

And by CC-ing it gives the spammer immunity for another few seconds to spam WB, while the opponent gets tennis-ed and sometimes give no immunity.

So.....what you're saying is if you CC him it makes him stop wrecking blow and break the CC and then he gets CC immunity for 6 seconds where he will continue to Wrecking Blow, right? But your method is to not CC him so that he never has to stop what he's doing? Lol, I want to play against a campaign full of people like you. Your logic seems on point.

i never mentioned my method of not CC-ing the WB spammer, i simply said cc-ing isnt enough. My method of dealing with them is a few roots which does not give immunity, then invis + speed potion

dlepi24 · September 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

dlepi24 wrote: »

I feel like what you just described is someone outplaying you (not trying to be rude). The object of a battle is to outlast your opponent and normally that's done when you run someone out of resources. As a stamina DK I know that when I fight a sorc I'm not going to out DPS them from range and my only option is to get close to them which normally means I have to go into their mines and take damage. I know that most sorcs don't have a lot of stamina so keeping them CC'd every 6 seconds is the only way I'm going to kill them. I know that usually I'm not going to kill them for at least a minute because they have their initial stam + a tri-pot with a 45 second cooldown. That cooldown window is when they run out of stam and can't break CC and then that's my opportunity to wrecking blow spam without them being able to shield stack. So did I use a cheap skill to kill them? Probably. But I played a game of chess where I waited and managed my resources better than him and because of that he's dead and I'm not.

So, you roll dodging constantly instead of blocking some of the attacks or CC'ing him or BOL/streaking away made you run out of resources. Once you run out of stam as a sorc (or any class really) you're pretty much dead.

Kinda hard to do when you fought 8 guys with your team prior to that and Mr Wrecking Blow dismounts with full resources, but yeah.

So, you have a team of people and they let one guy kill you? I'd get a new "team"

zornyan · September 2015

I barely use wrecking blow anymore, anytime I use it I can't kill anyone, they just dodge/block it. Now puncturing sweep? Hell yeah!

Kobaal · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

I barely use wrecking blow anymore, anytime I use it I can't kill anyone, they just dodge/block it. Now puncturing sweep? Hell yeah!

Puncturing sweep is easier to sidestep and it leave you open to attack while you are jabby jabbing.

Ironically my new fav thing to do is wrecking blow a templar while he is stuck in the jabby animation. Gives me time to set up the swing.

Dr_Ganknstein · September 2015

I tried using other two handed abilities and always kept coming back to WB. There is just no reason to use the other abilities because WB is far superior. What if it was interuptable like other castable abilities?

yodased · September 2015

@Icky it used to be, it was a glorious time.

Kobaal · September 2015

Icky wrote: »

I tried using other two handed abilities and always kept coming back to WB. There is just no reason to use the other abilities because WB is far superior. What if it was interuptable like other castable abilities?

On my 2H bar I use every 2H skill except cleave.

Crit Rush - gap closer + high damage
WB - obviously
Execute - Self explanitory
Rally - obviously

Vigor is my 5th slot.

Plenty of reason to use the other abilities.

zornyan · September 2015

Kobaal wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

I barely use wrecking blow anymore, anytime I use it I can't kill anyone, they just dodge/block it. Now puncturing sweep? Hell yeah!

Puncturing sweep is easier to sidestep and it leave you open to attack while you are jabby jabbing.

Ironically my new fav thing to do is wrecking blow a templar while he is stuck in the jabby animation. Gives me time to set up the swing.

I use invasion first or any other knockdown, I just love the heal from sweeps..

Invasion, sweeps, Puncture, rally, repeat.

My health bar never drops

Swindy · September 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Just tell me this, if wrecking blow is nerfed, what else are 2handed stam builds supposed to dps with? Cleave?

That's a terrible argument. I use a two handed weapon on my 1st bar, bow on my 2nd, and the only ability I use from the 2h tree is Rally.

Bumped into a "Dragonstar Arena Champion" (I'm quietly envious of that title, & Boethia's Scythe even more so) at a Cyro dolmen last night, & to my utter astonishment, he did exactly this.
I am a DW (& bow) ***, but even I will go try his routine as he stayed in close with the bow, didn't run & dodge roll as I would've in my medium if not for my daggers & 80% critical.
He was a lesson in alternative successful bow play.

olsborg · September 2015

The only gripe I have with this skill is that dark cloak doesnt work to counter it, youll still get hit by wb if you cloak before it hits you.

dlepi24 · September 2015

Icky wrote: »

I tried using other two handed abilities and always kept coming back to WB. There is just no reason to use the other abilities because WB is far superior. What if it was interuptable like other castable abilities?

Even I believe it should be interruptable again. There shouldn't be any ability with a cast time that isn't able to be interrupted.

Farorin · September 2015

"OMG Wrecking blow span is OP and EVERYWEHRE!!!"

I have only been killed by wrecking blow once since imperial city release.

JDar · September 2015

It should cost a lot more

Kammakazi · September 2015

Warraxx wrote: »

WB is sooo easy to counter... L2P

Not really.

When the user is a full Stamina build with tons of Stamina recovery, you can't escape them. CRIT CHARGE CRIT CHARGE CRIT CHARGE

You will never be able to.

Lylith · September 2015

Waffennacht wrote: »

The thing is WB can kill even if it did 50 dmg per attack.

Its the bug that prevents cc immunity that makes wb broken (literally)

The ability is fine, its the bug, fix the bug and wb becomes like any other of the listed abilities

exactly.

all this advice for countering wb means jack**** when your cc immunity is 'wrecked.'

nothing beats spamming this or that counter and having absolutely NO effect on your character.

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

Lylith wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The thing is WB can kill even if it did 50 dmg per attack.

Its the bug that prevents cc immunity that makes wb broken (literally)

The ability is fine, its the bug, fix the bug and wb becomes like any other of the listed abilities

exactly.

all this advice for countering wb means jack**** when your cc immunity is 'wrecked.'

nothing beats spamming this or that counter and having absolutely NO effect on your character.

There is one very good way to break the CC of wrecking blow....DO NOT GET HIT BY THE CHARGE UP ABILITY THAT LOCKS THE CASTER INTO THE ATTACK. how do you not see this kill coming?

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

*skill*

Colosso-monstro · September 2015

6 out of 8 of my deaths today were from wrecking blow and it's God like CC. Such a lively and balanced Pvp experience on eso.

On a serious note, it's an uninterruptible almost instant cast CC that does upwards of 9k. It shouldn't even be an argument about how ridiculous it actually is. There shouldn't be a skill where I can hand my v14 character over to a newbie and him be able to get kill after kill by spamming 1 skill.

Stannum · September 2015

Kammakazi wrote: »

Warraxx wrote: »

WB is sooo easy to counter... L2P

Not really.

When the user is a full Stamina build with tons of Stamina recovery, you can't escape them. CRIT CHARGE CRIT CHARGE CRIT CHARGE

You will never be able to.

really? step/roll through enemy while she is doing WB (she misses), then while she's turning/charging next WB use any instant CC skill. Have not you any? Do you really have PvP build? BtW unstoppable pots grants 15s CC immunity.

zornyan · September 2015

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

6 out of 8 of my deaths today were from wrecking blow and it's God like CC. Such a lively and balanced Pvp experience on eso.

On a serious note, it's an uninterruptible almost instant cast CC that does upwards of 9k. It shouldn't even be an argument about how ridiculous it actually is. There shouldn't be a skill where I can hand my v14 character over to a newbie and him be able to get kill after kill by spamming 1 skill.

What about 20k crystal frags that is actually instantly cast?

Or what about 20k snipes that can kill you from 10miles away?

Or 15k biting jabs that can constantly cc you?

Or even the 15k suprise attacks?

They are all OK yeah?

Wrecking blow barely ever kills me, you can block it, you can dodge it, you can just walk through them to cancel it.

Everytime I ever use it, it either gets blocked or dodged, so I don't really see how it's op..

RinaldoGandolphi · September 2015

I miss the days in this game where Heavy Attacks and Wrecking Blow were interuptable by a simple bash....

mr_wazzabi · September 2015

Lord-Otto wrote: »

*sigh*

So, how much longer are we gonna pretend this skill is not completely overpowered and worse, broken?
Or is there a secret reason why 50% of all incoming attacks are WBs?

Just look at it: as much/higher damage than an ultimate (meteor, for example), can be spammed, little cost with only mediocre gear, uninterruptable, insane cc, cc is even broken and will not always grant cc immunity, and insane range/phantom range. And of course, stamina being already overpowered enough thanks to nirnhoned and useless light armor.
And what are the downsides? 0.8 seconds casting time, that is thanks to lag more like 0.5, which is effectively instant. A supposed cancel by walking through the caster, which is just not doable in 0.5 seconds. That is all.

Alright, I get it, Zenimax, you have to please the little kiddies out there that want a Devil May Cry Online. Cool. But please don't forget there are others out there that enjoy more complex games and are very frustrated about your poor, POOR balancing. And if you think now I have to learn to adapt or play, last campaign was rank 3 for me... If I have to l2p, then may god have mercy upon the other 99%.

Just double the stamina cost - at least. Still fun, still works, less cheesy, and more realistic - it's a two-hander, you just don't swing it like a dagger, and neither has it ever been supposed to.

Wrecking blow us really easy to dodge or block. You can dodgeroll towards him to run towards him to cause his channel to cancel, wasting his time and allowing you to hit him.

None of your proposed nerfs make sense as it'll kill the skill for pve.

SCinsight · September 2015

How about we just make WB bashable like it was previously... C'mon, if you can still do it in PvE then it should also apply to PvP.

Tdroid · September 2015

Something to consider is that Wrecking Blow is one of the very few useful stamina single target damage skills available, and have similar efficiency to Crystal Shard and Snipe. It has a powerful immunity to soft CC, but that is because of the melee factor of the skill that Shard and Snipe doesn't have. Nerfing WB would pretty much kill any and all stamina Dragonknight outright, and probably Sorcs too.

If WB is to be nerfed, you need to give the Dragonknight and Sorcerer classes something akin to Surprise Attack; a strong single-target stamina morph to the Dragonknight and Sorcerer. Like Lava Whip having a stamina morph.

And speaking of Surprise Attack, with the recent cost reduction, the instant cast and high damage, combined with the Major Fracture that has a ridicolous duration which increase the power of coming, combined with SAs Shadow Barrier and Dark Vigor synergy... That is some really powerful stuff. Wrecking Blow, being easy to dodge and slow to charge(and melee ranged), is pretty quaint in comparison. And let's not get into Crystal Frags.

Joy_Division · September 2015

ZoS should have never removed the interrupt for such a powerful skill.

Tdroid · September 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZoS should have never removed the interrupt for such a powerful skill.

It wasn't particularly powerful when it was interruptable. Then it was pretty laughable, because the skill was pretty much impossible to use at all. And, like people have said, it is not a very hard skill to avoid, especially compared to the other damage nukes like Snipe and Frags.

If it is to be interuptable, it needs to be given a much shorter charge time, since it requires you to be in range of bashing to even activate it.

zornyan · September 2015

Agreed, besides you can't interrupt suprise attack, for instance, that hits nearly as hard yet can be spammed twice as quick.

Waffennacht · September 2015

The problem isn't WB, it is the cc immunity bug.

It is only most apparent with WB.

Its because WB is a consistent time cast and uninterruptible we see the cc immunity bug every time.

With other abilities like crystal frags there is only a chance of it being proced (and even then you use other spells) so the cc immunity bug doesn't kick in (or very rarely)

If the bug were to be fixed then we would see no WB threads

Stigant · September 2015

WB is strong ... very strong .. but nowhere near overpowered ... you can dodge it, you just need to time it right. You can "step trought" WBlower, You can block the CC, you can insta CC WBlower while he's charging his WBlow. Many people get defensive when they see Wblow coming .. thats what gets them killed. While charging Wblow the said attacker is exposed to EVERYTHING.

Only problem I see with Wblow is that it can be cast from stealth and invisibility that reveals WBlower after Wblow conects. Only tweak I d like to see towards this skill is that it would reveal attacker from stealth or invis at the begining of the animation, instead of 1sec after he send his target airborn.

[SUGGESTION]

It might be actually a good idea to give those most spammed abilities some similar treat as rolldodge and streak has.
Those skills/spells are obviously being spamed for all those benefits "under one button".

WB - has big ass scarry knockback + knockdown + empower,
Ambush - has imobilize (stealth stun) + empower, mobility over terrain
Suprise Attack - has stealth stun, armor debuff and is instant
Biting Jabs - knockback + crit buff (or selfheal)
Flying Blade - snare + damage boost + 28m range (and of course stealth crit & stun)
.
.
.
etc.

So, I would propose to give them the same stackable cost increase as Roll dodge and Streak has (for lets say 3-4 seconds), with introducing a new mechanic that would "reset/remove" the increased cost by hitting with a Heavy attack. That might encourage player skill over mindless one button spaming, while still keeping the "no cooldowns" approach of this game's combat and option to choose to use it "the old style" with a tradeoff.

Thoughts?

EDIT:
Making WB Bashable would just encourage stepping back to permablocking+bash builds that I m personally so glad to see a lot less frequently than before the patch

Nonamesbutmineub17_ESO · September 2015

I think people are using wrecking blow a lot because it's the hardest hitting ability since most the other skills and class abilities that scale from weapon damage can usually be out healed or do so little damage that the person not using wrecking blow would be killed because they could not do enough damage or the fight would never end. If anything I think this is a symptom of the damage being nerfed a little too much.