Class Counter Potions

starkerealm · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

I HATE having to collect herbs against NBs.
I request that NBs also must collect herbs for fighting.

...I do? Tripots don't grow on trees, you know. They grow on shrubs, bushes, and flowers.

cazlonb16_ESO · September 2015

I wish there was a potion to counter the whining ability of the crybaby class.

PrinceRyzen · September 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's 13 seconds of detect with a 45 second cooldown...if somebody's using it. So if one person's using it, you get 66% of the time where cloak works just fine.

You guys make it sound like they send out a weekly allotment of these things to every active character.

There should be counters for everything. Far as I can tell, there are. It's good for detecting anyone using an invisible potion, as well.

66% of the time a class ability works heh? Of course the other class abilities never are negated by potions meaning they have 100% of the time. Spot the issue?

arcantonias wrote: »

man i wish i rolled a class that required my opponent has the right consumable to combat my cloak spamming GG

Required? Now we're reaching. May as well join the "no abilities counter cloak" crowd too. Go all the way!

Xjcon wrote: »

All classes can stealth. It effects all classes. Put a CD on cloak and I would support some kind of change to detect pots.

The discussion is about an ability Being negated by a potion. It's already been mention that crouched players with the hidden status being detected is fair to all. Breaking a NB cloak is where the issue arrises. That's 1 class. Not all.

And a CD? Like the one on shields? Lol.

My goal isn't changing abilities. It's to either have counter potions for all classes or non at all.

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Let's look at this a different way....

NBs have the only ability that cannot be countered with other abilities. You must waste a potion cooldown to stop them. That's why people complained so much about stealth and needing to use detect pots just to counter it.

Healing can be countered with Soulharvest, Shields can be countered with a set and flat damage burst skills, debuffs and Snares can be countered with speed buffs and purges, and Break Free along with the cc immunity buff is a built-in game mechanic not to mention CC can be BLOCKED.

But Stealth? One way to counter it: detect pots. Only other method of breaking stealth involves AOE spamming (assuming you have one) and praying to RNGsus that you get lucky and hit him on the first try before all your magicka is gone and you're at a disadvantage fighting him anyway.

AoE/flare/magelight/NB mark/daedric curse/bolt escape/slow etc and then you have the potion,you actually have many counter

QFT

And more can be listed.

Ultimately until all classes suffer from the same fate they won't share the same perspective on the matter. There's a huge debate over the shield breaker set. Imagine a potion that eliminated 100% of shields, healing, reflecting, etc. everyone would all the sudden see eye to eye that potions shouldn't break class functions.

But as it currently stands, no one wants balance if it's lopsided in their favor.

Truth

P.S. Still waiting on someone to address having counters for all classes.. Or non at all. If you're in favor of detect pots breaking cloak why have you not once supported counters for all classes?

I won't stat the obvious.

Merlight · September 2015

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Also, I'll point out a big difference.

It's a marginal difference. It only seems big to you because you're not considering the effects on combat.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

If player A takes a cc immunity potion, player A I immune to CC. Effect on self

Player A dictates when player B's CC will be effective.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

With detect, if player A uses a detect potion, player Bs cloak is nullified. Effect on someone else.

Player A dictates when player B's Cloak will be effective.

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's 13 seconds of detect with a 45 second cooldown...if somebody's using it. So if one person's using it, you get 66% of the time where cloak works just fine.

You guys make it sound like they send out a weekly allotment of these things to every active character.

There should be counters for everything. Far as I can tell, there are. It's good for detecting anyone using an invisible potion, as well.

66% of the time a class ability works heh? Of course the other class abilities never are negated by potions meaning they have 100% of the time. Spot the issue?

You've even acknowledged that CC immunity potions exists, yet still go on with this "other class abilities never are negated by potions" nonsense.

PS: ever thought of a potion that counters an ultimate?

Brrrofski · September 2015

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's 13 seconds of detect with a 45 second cooldown...if somebody's using it. So if one person's using it, you get 66% of the time where cloak works just fine.

You guys make it sound like they send out a weekly allotment of these things to every active character.

There should be counters for everything. Far as I can tell, there are. It's good for detecting anyone using an invisible potion, as well.

66% of the time a class ability works heh? Of course the other class abilities never are negated by potions meaning they have 100% of the time. Spot the issue?

arcantonias wrote: »

man i wish i rolled a class that required my opponent has the right consumable to combat my cloak spamming GG

Required? Now we're reaching. May as well join the "no abilities counter cloak" crowd too. Go all the way!

Xjcon wrote: »

All classes can stealth. It effects all classes. Put a CD on cloak and I would support some kind of change to detect pots.

The discussion is about an ability Being negated by a potion. It's already been mention that crouched players with the hidden status being detected is fair to all. Breaking a NB cloak is where the issue arrises. That's 1 class. Not all.

And a CD? Like the one on shields? Lol.

My goal isn't changing abilities. It's to either have counter potions for all classes or non at all.

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Let's look at this a different way....

NBs have the only ability that cannot be countered with other abilities. You must waste a potion cooldown to stop them. That's why people complained so much about stealth and needing to use detect pots just to counter it.

Healing can be countered with Soulharvest, Shields can be countered with a set and flat damage burst skills, debuffs and Snares can be countered with speed buffs and purges, and Break Free along with the cc immunity buff is a built-in game mechanic not to mention CC can be BLOCKED.

But Stealth? One way to counter it: detect pots. Only other method of breaking stealth involves AOE spamming (assuming you have one) and praying to RNGsus that you get lucky and hit him on the first try before all your magicka is gone and you're at a disadvantage fighting him anyway.

AoE/flare/magelight/NB mark/daedric curse/bolt escape/slow etc and then you have the potion,you actually have many counter

QFT

And more can be listed.

Ultimately until all classes suffer from the same fate they won't share the same perspective on the matter. There's a huge debate over the shield breaker set. Imagine a potion that eliminated 100% of shields, healing, reflecting, etc. everyone would all the sudden see eye to eye that potions shouldn't break class functions.

But as it currently stands, no one wants balance if it's lopsided in their favor.

Truth

P.S. Still waiting on someone to address having counters for all classes.. Or non at all. If you're in favor of detect pots breaking cloak why have you not once supported counters for all classes?

I won't stat the obvious.

It isn't an anti nightblade potion.

It works on EVERYONE in stealth.

Stealth isn't a nightblade exclusive thing. They can just make more use of it than others.

FireCowCommando · September 2015

This is a pretty amazing thread. Nb's have a good escape/disengauge, other players are forced to spend time crafting or buying potions because of its strength.

Your idea of balance is going to make things worse. Potions that counter abilities that are more core than cloak?

"Dont worry guys, we can beat this entire group when my potion negates all their healing unless they purge."

Introduce a new potion that would only strengthen zergs running purge non stop? Are you trying? ;_;

killingspreeb16_ESO · September 2015

FireCowCommando wrote: »

This is a pretty amazing thread. Nb's have a good escape/disengauge, other players are forced to spend time crafting or buying potions because of its strength.

Your idea of balance is going to make things worse. Potions that counter abilities that are more core than cloak?

"Dont worry guys, we can beat this entire group when my potion negates all their healing unless they purge."

Introduce a new potion that would only strengthen zergs running purge non stop? Are you trying? ;_;

You have alredy many counter,the potion is the hard counter to cloak,basically you want all the cloak counter to become hard counter,so you can just kill a NB without even trying.Cloak can be annoying(annoying not op) yes but like many other thing in the game.i don't have any problem to keep detect pots in the game if they last 15-20 sec but not 40 sec like they did in 1.6.
15-20 sec is a fair amount of time to kill a NB in my opinion.

Master_Kas · September 2015

Kronosphere wrote: »

detect pots dont work on cloak anymore though....? so what da funk u on about op?

They still work vs cloak, get your facts straight before posting.

Edit: if you thinking about what ZOS said before IC patch, they regretted it. Just like they didn't go through with crit-able shields.

Shunravi · September 2015

BalticBlues wrote: »

I HATE having to collect herbs against NBs.
I request that NBs also must collect herbs for fighting.

well, a nightblades best heal is a potion so....

Merlight · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

detect pots dont work on cloak anymore though....? so what da funk u on about op?

They still work vs cloak, get your facts straight before posting.

Maybe he referred to how broken they are. Yes they remove cloak, but don't prevent another one second later.

willymchilybily · September 2015

Anti Sorc - shield ignore -shield breaker or unresistable damage enchants on weapons? plus 2.1 battle spirit

Anti temp - heal Prevention - major defile eg disease damage on weapons, or lethal arrow plus 2.1 battle spirit

Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect - penetration, and aoes and presumably magicka detonation/curses? Or a bit trickier but using a a shield you can reflect a projectile. So ranged class spell with sword and shield equipped, popping shield reflect inbetween they then can't reflect the projectile back a second time. Easiest done with another DK And reflect I admit, but is quite fun when you see them on the keep walls wondering why their flappers don't work.

Anti NB - detect - plenty of these already

Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests) just makes stamina classes stronger but okay. I don't think this has been done.

You can claim what I say isn't a proper counter, but detection doesn't always work well, so I think it's all fair everyone has a counter. Job done nice work devs.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2015

willymchilybily wrote: »

Anti Sorc - shield ignore -shield breaker or unresistable damage enchants on weapons? plus 2.1 battle spirit

Anti temp - heal Prevention - major defile eg disease damage on weapons, or lethal arrow plus 2.1 battle spirit

Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect - penetration, and aoes and presumably magicka detonation/curses? Or a bit trickier but using a a shield you can reflect a projectile. So ranged class spell with sword and shield equipped, popping shield reflect inbetween they then can't reflect the projectile back a second time. Easiest done with another DK And reflect I admit, but is quite fun when you see them on the keep walls wondering why their flappers don't work.

Anti NB - detect - plenty of these already

Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests) just makes stamina classes stronger but okay. I don't think this has been done.

You can claim what I say isn't a proper counter, but detection doesn't always work well, so I think it's all fair everyone has a counter. Job done nice work devs.

Yes but there are abilities that break Cloak already, I don't see potions that Anti temp (heal Prevention), Anti dk (ignore defense/reflect/stop green dragon blood from working), Anti sorc (shield breaker/cancel bolt escape potions), just potions that not only detect sneaking enemies (which cover everyone in game,) but also cancel a enemy Nightblades Cloak ability.

I totally agree with PrinceRyzen here in this thread, hell I stated it in other threads and he is absolutely right, If you don't want balance then this isn't Debatable. We should have Anti-class potions as well..then there will be balance but the other three classes couldn't handle it.

Now You understand when I say (and I have stated this before in other threads), you use an ability, you spend the resource for it (magicka or stamina), it runs and you should get that ability to work full stop, no breaking/canceling of it for the alotted time and then it ends. So a Nightblades Shadow Cloak (and Morph's) should work without breaking just like every other classes abilities. There shouldn't be some darn potion that can cancel it, and if there is, then I should have a potion that cancel's the other classes abilities as well... it's only fair.

Crypticarsenal · September 2015

I would love to have a potion that could counter other class defensive abilities like shields/heals or even roll dodging 100% for 15-20 seconds.

Either that or give the user of the potion a damage debuff to make the fight even. Just because they can pop the potion doesn't mean they should get a free kill. They should still have to work for it, not have a total advantage. If they had a damage debuff or if I had a potion to get rid of their defensive ability (shields/heals) to make it even that would be nice.

If they want an advantage like that over another class it needs to be on their hot bar so they can sacrifice something else.

They only thing I can do now is spam healing ward while trying to dps through their shield while I am getting nuked or running away in mist. Usually ends up with me being dead tho.

Edit: If my build is built around a class ability then it shouldn't be negated by a potion, it should be negated by another class ability. If they want to spec to kill me have at it, but not speccing to kill me and then just going to the store and buying a potion to basically get a free kill is ridiculous. Same as if I went and bought a potion just to get easier kills on Sorc/Templar/Dks.

Xjcon · September 2015

Salty NB lost the TV stones he got from unsuspecting pve players? Only to get wrecked by a pvp player of another class that understands their counter. Be careful asking for changes, the usual outcome is worse then dealing with what we have now.

Crypticarsenal · September 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

Salty NB lost the TV stones he got from unsuspecting pve players? Only to get wrecked by a pvp player of another class that understands their counter. Be careful asking for changes, the usual outcome is worse then dealing with what we have now.

Popping a potion for a free kill is hardly getting "wrecked", and give us a potion that counters your main defensive ability and see how you like it.

Edit: So I kind of agree with the original poster, if you want to have a for sure kill on a night blade then it should be because of the abilities you slot, not from a potion. But If your not going to do that then the night blade should have access to the same type of class negate potion.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · September 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

Salty NB lost the TV stones he got from unsuspecting pve players? Only to get wrecked by a pvp player of another class that understands their counter. Be careful asking for changes, the usual outcome is worse then dealing with what we have now.

Not at all, I get "wrecked" all the time, I also "wreck" other Players all the time as well, we are talking about Balance here not ego, my kill to death ratio vs other players is very good, sometimes 15 or 20 (or more)/1 but on occasion I mess up or I expect certain things to happen and I get "wrecked". Hey it happens and I don't have a problem with it (I know others that flip out because of it) but not me, I rez and come back and try to learn what I did wrong.

I don't do certain things in PvP, like for examaple, I don't do emotes unless inside a keep or in a safe place.

I expect to die sometimes, resources too low or getting out numbered, dying to a better player, yup happens, Ganked when it's two or three on one and they sneak attack me, happened yesterday.

I do try to learn from my mistakes but I still make them and sometimes no matter what I do I will still die.

The worst is when I die to lag or a connection issue, that can make me mad because there is nothing I can do about it.

I been playing since Early access on the PC, Dying in PvP is not a issue.

Balance in-game is a issue.

Merlight · September 2015

This is getting silly. Cloak has been broken for ages, there weren't much complaining about detect pots. Now that cloak is OP as fog (to be clear, I blame that on soft caps removal; specifically infinite resources), comes rage against detect pots that are barely useful after the nerf.

Flaminir · September 2015

This thread embodies everything that I hate about an MMO.

People wanting a way to negate others and provide an instant and easy fix to make them stronger and have their own personal 'i-win' button.

Whatever happened to learning the other classes so you know how to counter them?

There are amazing players out there using every class.... strive for that excellence and learn.... don't just buy a potion to do it, wheres the fun or challenge in that!

UltimaJoe777 · September 2015

Before you go arguing about the unfairness of Potions keep 1 thing in mind: Potions have a rather long cooldown that can easily prevent you from keeping these things you want them to help against effective. For example if a Detection Potion lasts for only 8 seconds the Nightblade has only to hold out that long before they can go invisible to escape and you cannot do anything about it relying only on Potions since they have a 45 second cooldown which Jewelry Enchantments alone can only shave off up to 15 seconds of.

In short this whole class counter thing is not really the issue. Detection Potions only exist anyway because every Potion trait has a counter and Invisibility is a trait available via Potion both in this game and previous Elder Scrolls games whereas Damage Shields and the like do not.

Maulkin · September 2015

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

- Anti Sorc - shield ignore Say hi to shield breaker. And, gap closers are the counter to bolt
- Anti temp - heal Prevention Heal Debuffs and CC...next
- Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect There's a huge counter to Scales called melee attacks and CC. Scales don't reflect stealth attacks or any attack if you are hard CCed (f.e. Fear)
- Anti NB - detect yes
Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests)

Only then will everyone hate and agree anti class potions are awful in every conceivable way. Until then, NBs, don't expect support from other classes.

#sad truth

My comments in blue above.

What sad truth? There's no truth here. Just a bit of bias salad with QQ dressing

LordSemaj · September 2015

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

But Stealth? One way to counter it: detect pots. Only other method of breaking stealth involves AOE spamming (assuming you have one) and praying to RNGsus that you get lucky and hit him on the first try before all your magicka is gone and you're at a disadvantage fighting him anyway.

AoE/flare/magelight/NB mark/daedric curse/bolt escape/slow etc and then you have the potion,you actually have many counter

You didn't read the post. AOE spam drains magicka fast and is unpredictable randomness unless you already know where the NB is standing. Bolting an NB involves draining resources until you connect with it. If you're going to deplete your magicka prior to a battle with a DPS machine, you're at a disadvantage. A counter cannot rely on RNG to function.

Selique · September 2015

What the hell am I reading...? Seriously?

Because cloak can be detected by a potion barely anyone uses, all classes have to have something similar? Get out of town.

I'm a Nightblade. I PvP daily. Being detected is hardly a problem for me.

Not to mention, Detection Potions work on ALL Stealthed players, not just cloaked NBs.

Just because NBs have a skill that lets us insta-stealth doesn't mean we need potions to... do what to other classes? Sounds like you either need to learn how to utilize your NB skills, or play a new class.....

killingspreeb16_ESO · September 2015

Selique wrote: »

What the hell am I reading...? Seriously?

Because cloak can be detected by a potion barely anyone uses, all classes have to have something similar? Get out of town.

I'm a Nightblade. I PvP daily. Being detected is hardly a problem for me.

Not to mention, Detection Potions work on ALL Stealthed players, not just cloaked NBs.

Just because NBs have a skill that lets us insta-stealth doesn't mean we need potions to... do what to other classes? Sounds like you either need to learn how to utilize your NB skills, or play a new class.....

Work against everyone but if you use it against a NB you get an huge advantage,that's what the OP is trying to say.anyways i have no problem with detect pots if they last max 20 second not 43 sec like 1.6 that's was stupid

PrinceRyzen · September 2015

Lots of people are completely avoiding the actual topic. Lots.

EITHER

A. You're against potions negating ANY core class abilitiy. Supporting detect no longer detecting cloak.

Result: Everyone has to learn their class and utilize its abilities to counter players with skill.

OR

B. You support potions negating the core ability for ALL classes. Supporting new potions to counter the other classes in addition to detect negating cloak.

Result: No one has to "learn to play." Just pop the correct potion and burst down the person who's stripped down to roll dodging and blocking for defense.

Choice is yours. But stop trying to play the middle of the road. How is it One side should "learn to play" yet the other side deserves to have a potion do all the work instead?

I've no say in what whoever feels about any class. But apply those same standards to all classes.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2015

Cloak is more than a cloak. It also buffs armor and spell resist (You'd be crazy not to pick up this passive) and depending which morph you choose either gives you a 2-DoT purge or a 100% chance to crit. It isn't all about detection/invisibility, but it is a strong part of the ability yes. I think when weighing the pros and cons of this ability though, you really need to accept the fact that it can be a purge, an instant stealth, and a boost to armor/sr. When you view it that way it is quite strong.

I'd like to add that I've not been able to play in the last couple weeks due to some real life circumstances, but excluding that period of time, there have been broken Templar skills for as long as the game has been live. I'm not talking about a skill that can be countered with a potion, but skills that either only do half of what the tooltip says, or often do the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do.

The main point here is that I seriously doubt you will get many people thinking detection potions are a problem. The only area I might agree with you on a solution is if they somehow offered players a way to get something similar to Cloak via the Thieves Guild. Note that I still think that detection potions should work on that potential new ability as well.

Maulkin · September 2015

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Lots of people are completely avoiding the actual topic. Lots.

No, all that is happening is people seeing through your bias.

Not all class defenses are on a par. If you find yourself in 1v4 spamming scales or heals or shields you will only prolong your inevitable death.

Cloak (if not detect potted) will not prolong your death, it will get you out alive. It will also purge your DoTs. It will also stop mobs from attacking you. It will make incoming projectiles miss. It will also grant you more Spell Ress and Armor through Shadow Barrier.

If you decide to turn around and strike your targets it will give the element of surprise. It will grant your more weapon and spell damage through the Master Assassin Passive. It will also synergise with Concealed Weapon and give you the longest stun in the game for 5". It will also give you faster movement speed while cloaked.

It's not only a defensive ability it's also an offensive ability of epic proportions. It has a huge bunch of offensive and defensive benefits attached to it. It's the strongest thing in the game. That's why it needs more and easier to acquire counters than other skills.

You're just conveniently lumping everything into 1 category called "class abilities" and you are saying they should all have the same form of counters regardless of how strong they are.

Merlight · September 2015

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Work against everyone but if you use it against a NB you get an huge advantage,that's what the OP is trying to say.

Um, what? Anyone else once detected, is detected until dead. NB just cloaks again.

PrinceRyzen · September 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Cloak is more than a cloak. It also buffs armor and spell resist (You'd be crazy not to pick up this passive) and depending which morph you choose either gives you a 2-DoT purge or a 100% chance to crit. It isn't all about detection/invisibility, but it is a strong part of the ability yes. I think when weighing the pros and cons of this ability though, you really need to accept the fact that it can be a purge, an instant stealth, and a boost to armor/sr. When you view it that way it is quite strong.

I'd like to add that I've not been able to play in the last couple weeks due to some real life circumstances, but excluding that period of time, there have been broken Templar skills for as long as the game has been live. I'm not talking about a skill that can be countered with a potion, but skills that either only do half of what the tooltip says, or often do the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do.

The main point here is that I seriously doubt you will get many people thinking detection potions are a problem. The only area I might agree with you on a solution is if they somehow offered players a way to get something similar to Cloak via the Thieves Guild. Note that I still think that detection potions should work on that potential new ability as well.

Of course. Only 1 out of 4 of the classes has an ability that's negated by detect. The other three have access to 100% of their abilities and can pop a potion. That's a win for 3 out of 4.

NB lose their ability to cloak and have no potion in response to counter the other classes.

Hence my OP. Not until anti potions for all classes will everyone see the issue.

So, never mind what others may think. Are YOU for or against anti potions for all?

Merlight wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Work against everyone but if you use it against a NB you get an huge advantage,that's what the OP is trying to say.

Um, what? Anyone else once detected, is detected until dead. NB just cloaks again.

Detect pots prevent other classes from using abilities?

If the answer is no, then there death wasn't because their abilities didn't work. Fair?

If the NB died because he couldn't cloak, the death was because of a potion. Fair?
Spot the difference.

So, are you for or against anti class potions for all?

PrinceRyzen · September 2015

Just went back over and noticed one last argument made that I really want dead. It may very well be the reason some mistakingly think this potion is fair. Probably should have posted it in the original OP but here it is?

Brrrofski wrote: »

It isn't an anti night blade potion. It is for everyone in stealth.

Xjcon wrote: »

All classes can stealth. It effects all classes. Put a CD on cloak and I would support some kind of change to detect pots.

Brrrofski wrote: »

It isn't an anti nightblade potion.

It works on EVERYONE in stealth.

Stealth isn't a nightblade exclusive thing. They can just make more use of it than others.

This has been brought up multiple times so, here's the answer:

Crouching and receiving the "hidden" status isn't a combat ability. If you'd like to test it, engage in combat and try to crouch. You won't be hidden because its NOT meant to be an in combat ability.

On the other hand cloak IS meant to be used in combat.

The reason this potion is an issue is because it prevents a class from using an ability IS meant to be used in combat. NO other classes lose use of combat abilities due to detect potions except for NB.

Saying otherwise is completely false. Detect Potions ONLY prevent Nightblades combat abilities and that's what they're used for. It's an anti NB potion and the only anti class potion in game.

This is what game balance is not. Add potions that completely negate other classes in combat abilities or remove that effect on NB.

That's a fair request for balance.

Done

Egonieser · September 2015

Everybody can sneak, so Detect pots are not a counter to just nightblades but a counter to anyone who sneaks.
I am a magicka sorcerer and i spend 60% of my pvp time sneaking and i suffer from detect pots just as much as anybody.
If sneaking was a NB-only ability, i would agree, but since sneaking is a general ability for everyone - that is not the case.
It is a counter to cloak, same as any gapcloser is a counter to streak, and channeled ability to wings etc.
Stop crying about detect pots and move on with your life. Each build has it's upsides and downsides, live with it.