Class Counter Potions

PrinceRyzen

A side step from a previous discussion. Wanted to simply suggest something for all classes.


There is currently only ONE class - night blades- countered by a potion: Detect. (Non debatable Imbalance) That is essentially going to create a divide in the community. The classes that benefit from from an "I win" button are not going to be against it.



Either 1 of 2 things need to happen.

Option 1: class counter potion (detect) only detects hidden players and NOT NB while cloaked. (Effects all crouching classes. No effect on abilities. Equal to all)


Or

Option 2: class counter potions are created for all classes.

Anti Sorc - shield ignore
Anti temp - heal Prevention
Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect
Anti NB - detect
Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests)

Only then will everyone hate and agree anti class potions are awful in every conceivable way. Until then, NBs, don't expect support from other classes.


#sad truth

killingspreeb16_ESO

Let them have their potion or the QQ on the forum will be insane,they are alredy trying to destroy cloak in some amazing ways,claiming this potion is not enough and not fair for them(yes for them who care about NB right?)because they feel forced to drink a potion since is the ONLY counter to cloak apparently

Nemeliom

Of course, not that they have radiant magelight, or any other AoE to counter us.

Shunravi

well for shield ingnore they made a set... but thats a set. quite a few degrees diferent.
does disease damage still do a healing debuff? theres an enchant for that...
there are counter reflects, but most counter things you list actualy belong to dks.... (their ult ignores armor)

Menelaos

There could be a potion effect that decreases detection radius. Other folks sneak as well, not only NBs so they could profit from it too.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO

Honestly, Cloak overall (at least it was intended to, no idea if its working properly yet) got buffed this patch. Being able to avoid single target attacks and detect pots got a big nerf.

If we compare, Sorcs are the only class who's primary defense is negated by a set piece: the shield breaker set. You can say "well other classes have shields so its not just sorcs," but everyone can stealth to, and detect pots hurt those of us who aren't anywhere near as mobile as NBs but still stealth up occasionally.

In the IC, heals got nerfed 50% which would theoretically hit templars more, but from my experience they can still heal just fine.

Damage shields got nerfed, affects sorcs most but they can still fare better than the rest of us.

No more stam regen while blocking affects all Stam builds. Can't really say who this one hits most cuz every type of tank needed to change things up now, and I'm seeing more "sorc tank" discussions than ever, but I think a very large number of DKs were tanks so maybe they were hit most simply because of the numbers.

Bottom line is that everyone took a nerf bat this patch to their defenses, and NBs still got an attempt at cloak buffs, directly and indirectly through detect pot nerf.

"Reduced the maximum duration (before passives) for detection potions to 12.5 seconds from 43 seconds, as they previously proved too effective to foil any means of stealth."

I don't mean to completely dismiss your point because it's worth discussing, but I personally feel like NBs and Sorcs are still top of the pack even with their counters. My DK has been nerfed so much over the last year PvP for me is just a game of "how long can I last before I die" rather than being effective solo, so I'm not terrible sympathetic to your woes.

Shunravi

Honestly, everything interesting in this game has been nerfed so much its hard to care about anything that remains. Just use your light/heavy attacks like they want you to and watch as they rebalance everything into the ground.

On a lighter note, at least nightblades are 'on top.' whoopee!!! look what endless qq gets.





wow im cynical.

PrinceRyzen

^ cloak is being fixed. The adjustments being made are what was intended. Nb have been playing with a gimped ability.

As for the shield breaker set, it doesn't negate shields. It gives the wearer of the set a damage through shields added to their light/heavy attacks. Nb under the effect of detect pots (no indication of when nor who used it btw) are 100% exposed to ALL attacks. Not just light/heavy. Breaking cloak also means all enemies can attack. Not just the wearer of a set. Vital difference.

But this is all besides my original point. The changes to shields, roll dodging, healing, blocking, etc. are the same for all classes. Yet there is only ONE class that has its primary ability countered by a potion.

I'm not asking for any specific buffs to any one class. My issue is that if there are class counter potions, have for all classes or don't have them for any.


Is that a fair request?

Shunravi

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

^ cloak is being fixed. The adjustments being made are what was intended. Nb have been playing with a gimped ability.

As for the shield breaker set, it doesn't negate shields. It gives the wearer of the set a damage through shields added to their light/heavy attacks. Nb under the effect of detect pots (no indication of when nor who used it btw) are 100% exposed to ALL attacks. Not just light/heavy. Breaking cloak also means all enemies can attack. Not just the wearer of a set. Vital difference.

But this is all besides my original point. The changes to shields, roll dodging, healing, blocking, etc. are the same for all classes. Yet there is only ONE class that has its primary ability countered by a potion.

I'm not asking for any specific buffs to any one class. My issue is that if there are class counter potions, have for all classes or don't have them for any.


Is that a fair request?

Well, as a PC beta nightblade, im still not 100% on cloak being the defining ability.

We finally 'got it fixed' after nearly everything else that could be called a 'class defining ability' in the other classes got dragged through the mud. And now, what do you know, people are saying its on top. And then Nightblades are defending it by pointing to all the things that actually do counter it. Like potions.

For the record I do agree that having a core ability countered so readily by a simple alchemy product on top of every other possible counter is rather ridiculous.

But as I said, its hard to care. I care enough to stay subbed. I love the game.

sorry for dumping my ranting here....





Sometimes i wonder what balance in this game would have been like had they gone the 'traditional' way with elemental effects. Shock drains magicka, frost drains stamina...




So what if they had potions that added a 'shield drain' to your attacks?
Or actually made use of the poisons in alchemy.

or whatever

Celas_Dranacea

I'm a nightblade and pvp almost exclusively - people can run detect potions all day and I won't give a crap. Balance right now is fine, perhaps better than it's ever been and I'm stamina based so I was nerfed.

If u are a nightblade having trouble being targeted by detect pots

1. Work in a group so it's less of an issue or
2. Use cc's then something with major expedition and gain some distance, break line of sight and hope that you get away

If that doesn't work, oh well. Be happy that 95% of the time ppl aren't using detect pots

Shunravi

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I'm a nightblade and pvp almost exclusively - people can run detect potions all day and I won't give a crap. Balance right now is fine, perhaps better than it's ever been and I'm stamina based so I was nerfed.

If u are a nightblade having trouble being targeted by detect pots

1. Work in a group so it's less of an issue or
2. Use cc's then something with major expedition and gain some distance, break line of sight and hope that you get away

If that doesn't work, oh well. Be happy that 95% of the time ppl aren't using detect pots

^


Hey, guess what, nightblades have a cc that grants major expedition! Yay cripple!

Sithisvoid

As a nightblade i use and love detect pots. Leave them alone

Kronosphere

detect pots dont work on cloak anymore though....? so what da funk u on about op?

G0ku

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

There is currently only ONE class - night blades- countered by a potion: Detect. (Non debatable Imbalance)

When did you pvp last time, on 30th of august? If they still are a problem for you then the problem sits in front of the screen.

Merlight

Let's put your counter potions into the perspective of how detect potions "work" currently:

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Option 2: class counter potions are created for all classes.

Anti Sorc - remove shields - then they can immediatelly cast new shields
Anti temp - heal Prevention - they cleanse/purge and keep on healing
Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect - they flap wings again and keep on reflecting
Anti NB - detect - they cloak again and keep on trolling
Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests)

So, which of those would you slot? Is any of them worth the cooldown?

Asmael

The complaining would be valid, if your sole defense was cloaking. But what about...

- Shadow image
- Mass hysteria
- Double take / Cripple / Path of darkness (tell me of another class with 3 skills that grants major expedition without considering weapon skills, thanks)
- LoS break
- Dodge rolls
- Blocking
- Soul Tether
- Tank like a baws
- Kiting your opponent (Bombard, Magnum shot, Cripple, Flame clench...)

Or even, just stalling the fight for the potion duration with all of the above. Your Ambush even allows you to jump to a target while snared / rooted.

Brrrofski

It isn't an anti night blade potion. It is for everyone in stealth.

PrinceRyzen

There is one singular class that has its >ABILITY< countered by a potion. That's an imbalance. Non debatable.


For some reason many of you ignore the point and immediately resort to the L2P response much too readily. Not once have I mentioned anything to do with having a "problem" playing. Perhaps L2R (learn to read) is a counter for that.


As stated in my original post, I never believed everyone would agree that detect pots should be altered to not affect abilities. Because not every class/person suffers from it. Some benefit. That creates a divide in the community. Hence my op. Only by having it effect a core ability from every class can we share similar perspectives.

If you say It's fair to have a class ability countered by a potion then support having it done to all classes. If you don't think they should then support detect pots NOT having an effect on NB abilities. < This is balance


If you ONLY want night blades to have an ability that can be countered by a potion that own up to that bias. < ...


Funny this is, no matter how fair or biased one side is, the winning side on the forums is just like in game. The one with the "Zerg."

Asmael

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

There is one singular class that has its >ABILITY< countered by a potion. That's an imbalance. Non debatable.


For some reason many of you ignore the point and immediately resort to the L2P response much too readily. Not once have I mentioned anything to do with having a "problem" playing. Perhaps L2R (learn to read) is a counter for that.


As stated in my original post, I never believed everyone would agree that detect pots should be altered to not affect abilities. Because not every class/person suffers from it. Some benefit. That creates a divide in the community. Hence my op. Only by having it effect a core ability from every class can we share similar perspectives.

If you say It's fair to have a class ability countered by a potion then support having it done to all classes. If you don't think they should then support detect pots NOT having an effect on NB abilities. < This is balance


If you ONLY want night blades to have an ability that can be countered by a potion that own up to that bias. < ...


Funny this is, no matter how fair or biased one side is, the winning side on the forums is just like in game. The one with the "Zerg."

Alright, so let's drop potions that gives immunity to knockbacks and stuns, because if someone use those, my DK can't use Petrify / Fossilize. I think people will agree that this is a "core" ability to DKs, since it's their very best CC available.

See, it's the same logic.

Also...

Brrrofski wrote: »

It isn't an anti night blade potion. It is for everyone in stealth.

Merlight

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

There is one singular class that has its >ABILITY< countered by a potion. That's an imbalance. Non debatable.

Every class has an ability countered by a potion.

Septimus_Magna

Nemeliom wrote: »

Of course, not that they have radiant magelight, or any other AoE to counter us.

You mean that passive abilities that needs to be slotted on both bars to keep active? With only 10 skills on your bar sacrificing 20% of your active skills for a passive is a huge penalty.

AOE is hardly a counter, if I un-cloak a NB with Streak for example, they cloak again and they're gone. I find it very strange that AOE un-cloaks NBs but lets them cloak immediately after. You just found and attacked the stealthy dude and now he's gone again.

Chuck detect pots or gtfo

PrinceRyzen

@asmael

Not sure if you're serious. The same potion that grants immunity to a dk's CC also grants immunity to the other classes CC. Meaning it's equal to all.

Also, I'll point out a big difference.

If player A takes a cc immunity potion, player A I immune to CC. Effect on self

With detect, if player A uses a detect potion, player Bs cloak is nullified. Effect on someone else.


@Merlight

False. Read above. No other potion applies an effect that eliminates an ability on another player.

WolfingHour

Major expedition?

Merlin13KAGL

It's 13 seconds of detect with a 45 second cooldown...if somebody's using it. So if one person's using it, you get 66% of the time where cloak works just fine.

You guys make it sound like they send out a weekly allotment of these things to every active character.

There should be counters for everything. Far as I can tell, there are. It's good for detecting anyone using an invisible potion, as well.

arcantonias

man i wish i rolled a class that required my opponent has the right consumable to combat my cloak spamming GG

LordSemaj

Let's look at this a different way....

NBs have the only ability that cannot be countered with other abilities. You must waste a potion cooldown to stop them. That's why people complained so much about stealth and needing to use detect pots just to counter it.

Healing can be countered with Soulharvest, Shields can be countered with a set and flat damage burst skills, debuffs and Snares can be countered with speed buffs and purges, and Break Free along with the cc immunity buff is a built-in game mechanic not to mention CC can be BLOCKED.

But Stealth? One way to counter it: detect pots. Only other method of breaking stealth involves AOE spamming (assuming you have one) and praying to RNGsus that you get lucky and hit him on the first try before all your magicka is gone and you're at a disadvantage fighting him anyway.

Ace_of_Destiny

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

A side step from a previous discussion. Wanted to simply suggest something for all classes.


There is currently only ONE class - night blades- countered by a potion: Detect. (Non debatable Imbalance) That is essentially going to create a divide in the community. The classes that benefit from from an "I win" button are not going to be against it.



Either 1 of 2 things need to happen.

Option 1: class counter potion (detect) only detects hidden players and NOT NB while cloaked. (Effects all crouching classes. No effect on abilities. Equal to all)


Or

Option 2: class counter potions are created for all classes.

Anti Sorc - shield ignore
Anti temp - heal Prevention
Anti dk - ignore defense/reflect
Anti NB - detect
Anti everyone - negate class abilities < (just examples. Not requests)

Only then will everyone hate and agree anti class potions are awful in every conceivable way. Until then, NBs, don't expect support from other classes.


#sad truth

I play a Templar.
But, I wish there was actually such a thing as "balanced classes".
Unfortunately, I have never seen, nor do I ever expect to see, such a thing.

cjthibs

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

There is currently only ONE class - night blades- countered by a potion: Detect. (Non debatable Imbalance) That is essentially going to create a divide in the community. The classes that benefit from from an "I win" button are not going to be against it.

If you feel the need to specify something is 'not debatable' then it probably is very much debatable.

Xjcon

All classes can stealth. It effects all classes. Put a CD on cloak and I would support some kind of change to detect pots.

BalticBlues

I HATE having to collect herbs against NBs.
I request that NBs also must collect herbs for fighting.

killingspreeb16_ESO

LordSemaj wrote: »

Let's look at this a different way....

NBs have the only ability that cannot be countered with other abilities. You must waste a potion cooldown to stop them. That's why people complained so much about stealth and needing to use detect pots just to counter it.

Healing can be countered with Soulharvest, Shields can be countered with a set and flat damage burst skills, debuffs and Snares can be countered with speed buffs and purges, and Break Free along with the cc immunity buff is a built-in game mechanic not to mention CC can be BLOCKED.

But Stealth? One way to counter it: detect pots. Only other method of breaking stealth involves AOE spamming (assuming you have one) and praying to RNGsus that you get lucky and hit him on the first try before all your magicka is gone and you're at a disadvantage fighting him anyway.

AoE/flare/magelight/NB mark/daedric curse/bolt escape/slow etc and then you have the potion,you actually have many counter