Please Fix Broken Champion Points --Sincerely, Magicka Users

Minno · September 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Also should be noted, you can increase the armor of your armor of choice to help mitigate physical dmg.
Combine with dodge skills can be a viable defense.

Yes, but for magicka damage your can increase your armor and then you have 3 other ways to additionally reduce the damage. For physical damage, you just have the one and you have to be wearing 5 pieces of the type of armor for it to work.

Also true lol

Suru · September 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Using a non-stamina hybrid build does not really make a case. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone using killer blade in PvP and since it is a spell using Elfborn makes sense. I can't imagine Relentless Focus is a staple DPS even with the buff.

Unless you're rocking over 600 points there is no real point in putting points into Bow Expert.

On the contrary. Although this is on the Alliance War Thread where OP would get support obviously, Jeckyll PvE's aswell and for me relentless is a staple to DPS with the buff and how much damage it does. It has a higher tooltip than soulharvest for me. Although in combat relentless is hard to keep track of, it is free burst when it is up and weaving is a must incyrodiil for players who aim to kill for maximum dps as it disregards skills global cooldown.

As a nightblade every ultimate is "Magic Damage" As a stamina user that is really unappealing. but forces us to spec into it a little bit. It is a CP passive with lower uptime than the other CP passives do (precises and mighty as they are physical) which apply to a majority of your damage. The DPS of those abilites can only be made higher by forcing into elfborn to do more damage. A DK has variety with leap and be physical damage, but if you are stamina, you have to stop putting some points into hings that increase your physical damage and put points into ele expert for your stamina DoTs. Magika DK's can have 25% pen 25% Ele Expert 25% more crit with the CP ofcourse to affect their entire toolkit which makes their banner so strong in PvE, Sorcs are all elemtal expert (ultimates), and templars, don't worry about it..their ults are more for mitigation than the damage (but their toolkit calls for it as a magika build).

With the points OP was making about have more resisitance on magik and elemental types it is true that is there, but you have the options of it yourself easily. Nirn in 1.6 coupled with this was extremely power and now people have SIGNIFICANTLY less spell resist for you to penetrate and a magika class you have free armor pen within passives of the armor skill line. ZoS has given you physical reduction buffer with the nerfs to armor pen. As it stands now, the convetional build will never reach full armor pen ( as im sure its possible with extreme -armor stacking which brings more negatives to your kit than positives in what you are sacrifcing especially in PvP) While most magika builds can come closer to it with nirn, major breach(?) and concentration and the CP passives.

I can't say having more resist passives is "fair" but only if you have the CP you can max all otherwise you shoudl be splitting inbetween as all spells in cyrodiil vary between the lines of magic and elemtal. there is a bigger picture here.

With the changes, all stamina users in Cyro, if used effectively can have dangerous openers in Cyro with the bow buffs from sneak. I will say tho it is only worth putting points into there when you have the CP itself.

QuebraRegra · September 2015

http://i.imgur.com/f4jLSi1.jpg

Nothing to see here, move along.

Ezareth · September 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Using a non-stamina hybrid build does not really make a case. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone using killer blade in PvP and since it is a spell using Elfborn makes sense. I can't imagine Relentless Focus is a staple DPS even with the buff.

Unless you're rocking over 600 points there is no real point in putting points into Bow Expert.

Your Imagination doesnt go very far, then. Using a Master's bow to apply Poison Injection for a strong Weapon Damage buff is a staple tactic in any Stamina based PvE Build. That's also where Relentless Focus is a Standard Skill.
I dont spend points in Bow Expert OR Heavy Weapon Expert. But it's 300 CP more to spend compared to Magicka based DPS that only use LA/MA/HA with Staves. You clearly only look at a PvP perspective. In PvE, things are a bit different.

Well on a PvP forum you're typically going to find people with PvP skewed perspectives. The last guy who pulled a bow out on me got his teeth kicked in. I'm sure it has it's places but I have seen anything successful out of a bow in IC yet. Even so, not all stamina builds are using a bow either. I get both my attack bonuses from heavy weapon expert or blade expert, no reason to mix both.

Jules wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So what your saying is want stamina users to be thrown under the bus again cause if I recall 2.1 pretty much did that already giving massive boost to magical users and throwing stamina users under the bus .... it was a short lived life.

There was no "massive boost" to magicka. It's called stamina users used broken things like sharpened maces and nirnhoned armor (35k+ spell resist) in conjuncture with this champion point system to entirely negate magicka users. That is why stam reigned supreme. In 1.6 I used to see whips hit for 800. So it's less an issue of you got nerfed and more an issue of the game got fixed.

800 damage whips was not a result of Nirnhoned and Sharpened maces didn't help against shield stacking sorcs or NBs running healing ward.

It wasn't 800 on every target, obviously. Just particular ones.

What do you propose was the cause of this incredibly weak skill in 1.6 if it wasn't directly correlated to nirnhoned stacking? You really think spell resist being maxed to insane levels had no affect whatsoever on this spell?
In this patch with nirnhoned being fixed, similar spell damage yields apprx 3.5-4.5k whips.

You couldn't reduce whip to 800 without blocking for starters. Wearing Nirnhoned(22K SR) if I wasn't blocking I'd regularly get hit for 4500 damage whips as a Non-vamp even with high elemental defender. It has to do with the way blocking stacks with passive mitigation *and* elemental defender CP passive. I'm no expert on whip but Meteor for example would regularly only hit me for 1K. You were either hitting someone blocking, or blocking through dodge roll but no chance whip hit 800 without blocking or Blinxey-build.

Ezareth · September 2015

Suru wrote: »

On the contrary. Although this is on the Alliance War Thread where OP would get support obviously, Jeckyll PvE's aswell and for me relentless is a staple to DPS with the buff and how much damage it does. It has a higher tooltip than soulharvest for me. Although in combat relentless is hard to keep track of, it is free burst when it is up and weaving is a must incyrodiil for players who aim to kill for maximum dps as it disregards skills global cooldown.

As a nightblade every ultimate is "Magic Damage" As a stamina user that is really unappealing. but forces us to spec into it a little bit. It is a CP passive with lower uptime than the other CP passives do (precises and mighty as they are physical) which apply to a majority of your damage. The DPS of those abilites can only be made higher by forcing into elfborn to do more damage. A DK has variety with leap and be physical damage, but if you are stamina, you have to stop putting some points into hings that increase your physical damage and put points into ele expert for your stamina DoTs. Magika DK's can have 25% pen 25% Ele Expert 25% more crit with the CP ofcourse to affect their entire toolkit which makes their banner so strong in PvE, Sorcs are all elemtal expert (ultimates), and templars, don't worry about it..their ults are more for mitigation than the damage (but their toolkit calls for it as a magika build).

With the points OP was making about have more resisitance on magik and elemental types it is true that is there, but you have the options of it yourself easily. Nirn in 1.6 coupled with this was extremely power and now people have SIGNIFICANTLY less spell resist for you to penetrate and a magika class you have free armor pen within passives of the armor skill line. ZoS has given you physical reduction buffer with the nerfs to armor pen. As it stands now, the convetional build will never reach full armor pen ( as im sure its possible with extreme -armor stacking which brings more negatives to your kit than positives in what you are sacrifcing especially in PvP) While most magika builds can come closer to it with nirn, major breach(?) and concentration and the CP passives.

I can't say having more resist passives is "fair" but only if you have the CP you can max all otherwise you shoudl be splitting inbetween as all spells in cyrodiil vary between the lines of magic and elemtal. there is a bigger picture here.

With the changes, all stamina users in Cyro, if used effectively can have dangerous openers in Cyro with the bow buffs from sneak. I will say tho it is only worth putting points into there when you have the CP itself.

Well the benefit of NB ultimates IMO are not primarily their damage but their utility as well. Incapacitating strike has a CC effect and heal debuff and is so cheap it may as well be a base ability. Soul harvest is an AoE stun and life steal, extremely powerful. Veil of blades is.....well carebears have to have something.

Point is those ultimates are not staple DPS, speccing into them isn't something anyone should be doing unless they're over 600CPs (like someone in this convo :P~). Maxxing Mighty and Precise Strikes/Heavy weapon expert will yield a far greater damage return and burst damage effectiveness than trying to hybridize your abilities and CPs. Once you get enough CPs the choice becomes irrelevant because you're going to get them all anyways.

From a min maxxer perspective going hybrid hurts you more than helps you. This is why more sorc ignored Thaumaturge in favor of Elemental Damage and why man sorcs ignore elemental damage in favor of Thaumaturge and focused on the abilities that benefited most from those. In my case Power overload with 25% bonus damage does an insane amount of burst when you need it. Same with wrecking blow on my NB. Max CPs into might and max CPs into Precise Strikes will yield a massive amount of damage for virtually no cost. The difference is it is very easy to build a stamina build that gets 90% of its damage increased from Mighty but the same is not true of a magicka build and either thaumaturge or Elemental with the exception of Templars (OP!!!).

Ishammael · September 2015

DK Magicka perspective:

Elemental Expert is really good for all of your base damage skills: Burning / Engulfing / Whip / DoT from Talons / Volatile / Inhale / Ash Cloud. And it helps Standard. No-brainer to max this first. (LOL Magma Armor)

Unfortunately:

Dragon Leap scales with Mighty, making it the best ultimate for stam DKs. Talons initial hit also does physical damage (grrrrr).

Prox Det, Bats, and any other "utility" spells require Thaumaturge.

Elemental Defender + Thick-skinned = double defense against all those fire DoTs.

Woman · September 2015

@Jules Thank you so much for bringing this up and standing up for magic users once again. Totally agree with OP and I hope something changes about this. I somewhat suspect this is retribution for how powerful we were at launch. QQ

Suru · September 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

On the contrary. Although this is on the Alliance War Thread where OP would get support obviously, Jeckyll PvE's aswell and for me relentless is a staple to DPS with the buff and how much damage it does. It has a higher tooltip than soulharvest for me. Although in combat relentless is hard to keep track of, it is free burst when it is up and weaving is a must incyrodiil for players who aim to kill for maximum dps as it disregards skills global cooldown.

As a nightblade every ultimate is "Magic Damage" As a stamina user that is really unappealing. but forces us to spec into it a little bit. It is a CP passive with lower uptime than the other CP passives do (precises and mighty as they are physical) which apply to a majority of your damage. The DPS of those abilites can only be made higher by forcing into elfborn to do more damage. A DK has variety with leap and be physical damage, but if you are stamina, you have to stop putting some points into hings that increase your physical damage and put points into ele expert for your stamina DoTs. Magika DK's can have 25% pen 25% Ele Expert 25% more crit with the CP ofcourse to affect their entire toolkit which makes their banner so strong in PvE, Sorcs are all elemtal expert (ultimates), and templars, don't worry about it..their ults are more for mitigation than the damage (but their toolkit calls for it as a magika build).

With the points OP was making about have more resisitance on magik and elemental types it is true that is there, but you have the options of it yourself easily. Nirn in 1.6 coupled with this was extremely power and now people have SIGNIFICANTLY less spell resist for you to penetrate and a magika class you have free armor pen within passives of the armor skill line. ZoS has given you physical reduction buffer with the nerfs to armor pen. As it stands now, the convetional build will never reach full armor pen ( as im sure its possible with extreme -armor stacking which brings more negatives to your kit than positives in what you are sacrifcing especially in PvP) While most magika builds can come closer to it with nirn, major breach(?) and concentration and the CP passives.

I can't say having more resist passives is "fair" but only if you have the CP you can max all otherwise you shoudl be splitting inbetween as all spells in cyrodiil vary between the lines of magic and elemtal. there is a bigger picture here.

With the changes, all stamina users in Cyro, if used effectively can have dangerous openers in Cyro with the bow buffs from sneak. I will say tho it is only worth putting points into there when you have the CP itself.

Well the benefit of NB ultimates IMO are not primarily their damage but their utility as well. Incapacitating strike has a CC effect and heal debuff and is so cheap it may as well be a base ability. Soul harvest is an AoE stun and life steal, extremely powerful. Veil of blades is.....well carebears have to have something.

Point is those ultimates are not staple DPS, speccing into them isn't something anyone should be doing unless they're over 600CPs (like someone in this convo :P~). Maxxing Mighty and Precise Strikes/Heavy weapon expert will yield a far greater damage return and burst damage effectiveness than trying to hybridize your abilities and CPs. Once you get enough CPs the choice becomes irrelevant because you're going to get them all anyways.

From a min maxxer perspective going hybrid hurts you more than helps you. This is why more sorc ignored Thaumaturge in favor of Elemental Damage and why man sorcs ignore elemental damage in favor of Thaumaturge and focused on the abilities that benefited most from those. In my case Power overload with 25% bonus damage does an insane amount of burst when you need it. Same with wrecking blow on my NB. Max CPs into might and max CPs into Precise Strikes will yield a massive amount of damage for virtually no cost. The difference is it is very easy to build a stamina build that gets 90% of its damage increased from Mighty but the same is not true of a magicka build and either thaumaturge or Elemental with the exception of Templars (OP!!!).

Their damage is relatively high regardless. Soul Harvest has much more utility than Incapacitating as the opponent is gettin CC immunity from fear 80% of the time, and while feared is when they get their soul harvest. +20% damage bonus after a soul harvest or incapacitating is so great :P I meant relentless being a staple not ultimates (as a NB they still are even without CP in pvp they are used when I have the ult gen usually) for me at least and various other NBs, but you're build is so player specific I can definately understand why you don't use it after you explained your reasoning. #NightBladeTalk

Ezareth · September 2015

Suru wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

On the contrary. Although this is on the Alliance War Thread where OP would get support obviously, Jeckyll PvE's aswell and for me relentless is a staple to DPS with the buff and how much damage it does. It has a higher tooltip than soulharvest for me. Although in combat relentless is hard to keep track of, it is free burst when it is up and weaving is a must incyrodiil for players who aim to kill for maximum dps as it disregards skills global cooldown.

As a nightblade every ultimate is "Magic Damage" As a stamina user that is really unappealing. but forces us to spec into it a little bit. It is a CP passive with lower uptime than the other CP passives do (precises and mighty as they are physical) which apply to a majority of your damage. The DPS of those abilites can only be made higher by forcing into elfborn to do more damage. A DK has variety with leap and be physical damage, but if you are stamina, you have to stop putting some points into hings that increase your physical damage and put points into ele expert for your stamina DoTs. Magika DK's can have 25% pen 25% Ele Expert 25% more crit with the CP ofcourse to affect their entire toolkit which makes their banner so strong in PvE, Sorcs are all elemtal expert (ultimates), and templars, don't worry about it..their ults are more for mitigation than the damage (but their toolkit calls for it as a magika build).

With the points OP was making about have more resisitance on magik and elemental types it is true that is there, but you have the options of it yourself easily. Nirn in 1.6 coupled with this was extremely power and now people have SIGNIFICANTLY less spell resist for you to penetrate and a magika class you have free armor pen within passives of the armor skill line. ZoS has given you physical reduction buffer with the nerfs to armor pen. As it stands now, the convetional build will never reach full armor pen ( as im sure its possible with extreme -armor stacking which brings more negatives to your kit than positives in what you are sacrifcing especially in PvP) While most magika builds can come closer to it with nirn, major breach(?) and concentration and the CP passives.

I can't say having more resist passives is "fair" but only if you have the CP you can max all otherwise you shoudl be splitting inbetween as all spells in cyrodiil vary between the lines of magic and elemtal. there is a bigger picture here.

With the changes, all stamina users in Cyro, if used effectively can have dangerous openers in Cyro with the bow buffs from sneak. I will say tho it is only worth putting points into there when you have the CP itself.

Well the benefit of NB ultimates IMO are not primarily their damage but their utility as well. Incapacitating strike has a CC effect and heal debuff and is so cheap it may as well be a base ability. Soul harvest is an AoE stun and life steal, extremely powerful. Veil of blades is.....well carebears have to have something.

Point is those ultimates are not staple DPS, speccing into them isn't something anyone should be doing unless they're over 600CPs (like someone in this convo :P~). Maxxing Mighty and Precise Strikes/Heavy weapon expert will yield a far greater damage return and burst damage effectiveness than trying to hybridize your abilities and CPs. Once you get enough CPs the choice becomes irrelevant because you're going to get them all anyways.

From a min maxxer perspective going hybrid hurts you more than helps you. This is why more sorc ignored Thaumaturge in favor of Elemental Damage and why man sorcs ignore elemental damage in favor of Thaumaturge and focused on the abilities that benefited most from those. In my case Power overload with 25% bonus damage does an insane amount of burst when you need it. Same with wrecking blow on my NB. Max CPs into might and max CPs into Precise Strikes will yield a massive amount of damage for virtually no cost. The difference is it is very easy to build a stamina build that gets 90% of its damage increased from Mighty but the same is not true of a magicka build and either thaumaturge or Elemental with the exception of Templars (OP!!!).

Their damage is relatively high regardless. Soul Harvest has much more utility than Incapacitating as the opponent is gettin CC immunity from fear 80% of the time, and while feared is when they get their soul harvest. +20% damage bonus after a soul harvest or incapacitating is so great :P I meant relentless being a staple not ultimates (as a NB they still are even without CP in pvp they are used when I have the ult gen usually) for me at least and various other NBs, but you're build is so player specific I can definately understand why you don't use it after you explained your reasoning. #NightBladeTalk

It's really Sorcs who are screwed the most by this design. They have absolutely zero physical abilities and their magick damage is evenly split between elemental and thaumaturge. Mages Wrath, Power Overload, Streak, Lightning Form are all Elemental. Crystal Frags, Daedric Mines, Velocious Curse are all Thaumaturge. All damage ults are thaumaturge as well with the exception of overload.

WRX · September 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)

Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

This. I also believe many Ala guys brought this up in their meetings as Trip and I did in ours. (Also brought it up in the last one ~ 2 weeks ago)

There are also many bugs with how the points actually do the opposite of what is intended, and are apparently still happening.

I understand there are some stamina magic based skills, and physical dmging skills that can scale off magicka, but the mitigation thing needs to get fixed.

Domander · September 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Take flight is physical damage.

Master_Kas · September 2015

Domander wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Take flight is physical damage.

How many other ultimates are physical damage? xD

WRX · September 2015

Alomar wrote: »

^^^ All of this ^^^

Wtb developers, or is there a new console system they need them all for months to adapt the code for again?

Do Your Job, well.

Domander · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Take flight is physical damage.

How many other ultimates are physical damage? xD

How many don't do damage at all? What's your point?

I was just pointing out that the quote said there are no physical damage ultimates, and that is incorrect.

Jeckll · September 2015

Domander wrote: »

I was just pointing out that the quote said there are no physical damage ultimates, and that is incorrect.

Thanks for pointing that out. So if I dont play a DK; there is no ultimate available that deals physical damage.
The point you ask for is, that Magic Damage users have a wide arsenal of Damage Ultimates to choose from while players relying on physical damage will do 25% less damage with those ultimates.

LegendaryChef · September 2015

IMO the champion system was the biggest mistake that ZoS have made(with 50% damage reduction being in close second) and I still can't believe they brought it in. It just completely destroyed what was left of the "skill" required to pvp simply down to the fact that one person could have grinded for the past few months, logs into cyro and fights someone who has been enjoying pvp the whole time but has a quarter of their CP so are instantly at a disadvantage. So I propose either we all get given the same amount (or cap it) or I think what we should be discussing is the fact that the system alone is the most unbalanced part of this game currently and not which builds suffer more from it's layout. (Just for the record I'm also a magicka user and I do agree with @Jules )

Lamiai · September 2015

LegendaryChef wrote: »

IMO the champion system was the biggest mistake that ZoS have made(with 50% damage reduction being in close second) and I still can't believe they brought it in. It just completely destroyed what was left of the "skill" required to pvp simply down to the fact that one person could have grinded for the past few months, logs into cyro and fights someone who has been enjoying pvp the whole time but has a quarter of their CP so are instantly at a disadvantage. So I propose either we all get given the same amount (or cap it) or I think what we should be discussing is the fact that the system alone is the most unbalanced part of this game currently and not which builds suffer more from it's layout. (Just for the record I'm also a magicka user and I do agree with @Jules )

A cap on CP or even a campaign where CP is removed would be great way to even the playing field, i'm just below 300 CP now and tbh I really can't be bothered to attempt to grind for more when the system and skills in the CP tree's don't even make sense with how they are laid out. Either remove the system ( or allow Camps without them ) or cap it.

FENGRUSH · September 2015

Can FENGRUSH use overload on His stam sorc yet? No? OK thanks everyone.

Ezareth · September 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Can FENGRUSH use overload on His stam sorc yet? No? OK thanks everyone.

Hands off my overload you filthy stammie! IF FENGRUSH wants to cast spells he better put on his robe and wizard hat and drop that sword!

FENGRUSH · September 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Can FENGRUSH use overload on His stam sorc yet? No? OK thanks everyone.

Hands off my overload you filthy stammie! IF FENGRUSH wants to cast spells he better put on his robe and wizard hat and drop that sword!

:'(
If FENGRUSH puts on a wizard hat will overload scale with stam properly?! Willing to make some sacrifices here.

Ezareth · September 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Can FENGRUSH use overload on His stam sorc yet? No? OK thanks everyone.

Hands off my overload you filthy stammie! IF FENGRUSH wants to cast spells he better put on his robe and wizard hat and drop that sword!

:'(
If FENGRUSH puts on a wizard hat will overload scale with stam properly?! Willing to make some sacrifices here.

I'm trying to imagine a stam-fueled double-overload cast by FENGRUSH from max distance followed by a crit-charge wrecking blow combo but I'm pretty sure that ruins my immersion.

Jules · September 2015

Woman wrote: »

@Jules Thank you so much for bringing this up and standing up for magic users once again. Totally agree with OP and I hope something changes about this. I somewhat suspect this is retribution for how powerful we were at launch. QQ

Mica

Yes I really do hope some things like this are addressed. It's a shame that these things aren't thought of, beforehand, by the people who actually make the game. But I guess discussing them is always good too. It seems the more ideas become mainstream on forums, the more attention they have the potential to get. I remember a thread many months ago that complained about how "continuous attack" only gave weapon damage, and how there was no spell damage/stam regen mundus. Now look where we are this patch.

Ezareth · September 2015

Jules wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

@Jules Thank you so much for bringing this up and standing up for magic users once again. Totally agree with OP and I hope something changes about this. I somewhat suspect this is retribution for how powerful we were at launch. QQ

Mica

Yes I really do hope some things like this are addressed. It's a shame that these things aren't thought of, beforehand, by the people who actually make the game. But I guess discussing them is always good too. It seems the more ideas become mainstream on forums, the more attention they have the potential to get. I remember a thread many months ago that complained about how "continuous attack" only gave weapon damage, and how there was no spell damage/stam regen mundus. Now look where we are this patch.

Well homogenizing everything is never good. If Stamina and Magicka builds become so similar the only difference becomes one build uses stamina as the primary resource and the other build uses magicka then the game becomes less interesting.

I like having major differences between Magicka and Stamina as long as they are of relatively equal strength.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I was just pointing out that the quote said there are no physical damage ultimates, and that is incorrect.

Thanks for pointing that out. So if I dont play a DK; there is no ultimate available that deals physical damage.
The point you ask for is, that Magic Damage users have a wide arsenal of Damage Ultimates to choose from while players relying on physical damage will do 25% less damage with those ultimates.

While the base statement may be true, what percentage of sustained DPS do Ultimates account for in the grand scheme of things, honestly?

Ultimates are ultimate. They're not dropping like they were in 1.5, so using that argument as justification for the stamina/melee skew is hardly justified.

Having Thaumaturge in the tree with physical passives would make as much sense as having Mighty in the tree with +Spell Crit or rez bonuses.

They need to do one of three things, but they need to do it across the board:

Have like passives in the same constellation as the base star effects. (Magic with magic, stamina w/stamina)
Have passives in constellations with opposing base star effects. (See Thaumaturge as it stands now.) This would force one to choose between the base star benefits or the major passive benefits.
Have a mixture of each type of passive in each constellation:
- Have a 10 point "Warrior" type passive in the first Mage constellation.
- Have a 10 point "Thief" type passive in the second Mage constellation.
- Have a 10 point "Mage" type passive in the third Mage constellation.
- So on and so forth.

Obviously these only apply at lower CP levels (< 300 - 500) with the first one being the most intuitive.

If their goal was to get you to mix up the point spread, they got it right in some constellations and completely missed the mark in others.

Ideally, there should be no single constellation that you look at and say "I don't need to invest a single point here, ever.

Jeckll · September 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

While the base statement may be true, what percentage of sustained DPS do Ultimates account for in the grand scheme of things, honestly?

Checking my Trials screen shots from update 6, it was 7-10% of my total dps.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · September 2015

Enhance Stamina Only is a very balanced game @Jules

You made some good points though would be nice to have more choices in melee dmg reduction then just armour perhaps a way to boost physical and spell resist separately

Anazasi · September 2015

seems rather unbla

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)

Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

I never even thought about this and now I can't even.
Who designed this?! This was brought up to people six months ago ?!

She is no longer with the company as of May.

The double reduction combination was not mentioned (or known at that point that I'm aware of) but the other two were by WRX(I believe) in the TS meeting. It may have been longer than 6 months, I can't recall the exact date of the meeting. The obvious bias of champion passives and abilities towards stamina builds is quite obvious and this is something that hasn't been brought up by myself and many others several times.

Let's look at and rate all of the Combat Magicka passives versus the Stamina passives, if a passive is not a combat passive or benefits magicka and stamina builds relatively equally I didn't include it.

Stamina Passives:

10 Point Retaliation: Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 30% after blocking a Heavy Attack.
Rating 4/5 : Extremely powerful for a skilled stamina player who is aware of the passive
10 Point Opportunist: Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 15% after you interrupt a target.
Rating 4/5: Can be combined with Retaliation and is used exclusively against casters
10 Point Invigorating Bash: Gives you a 20% chance to restore (437) Health when you Bash an enemy.
Rating 2/5: Very useful if you're using sword and board, bugged when using weapons to bash
30 Point Perfect Strike: Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 12%.
Rating 5/5: Obvious reasons
30 Point Phase: After roll dodging, your Armor and Spell Resistance are increased by (640) for 3 seconds.
Rating 1/5: Bonus passive defense but it only works out to ~1% and is negligible
30 Point Riposte: While blocking, 15% chance to return you (Weapon Damage * 2) to the attacker when you block a melee attack. This can only happen once every 5 seconds.
2/5: With the block nerf this has become far less useful but can do decent damage
120 Point Wind Running: Increases your Movement Speed by 2%. This applies to all types of movement. Also increases Health and Magicka Regeneration by 10% while sprinting.
Rating 3/5: Makes permanent sprinting and double-take spam much easier
120 Point Unchained: Reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 3 seconds after breaking free of a stun, knockdown, fear, disorient or stagger.
Rating 5/5: Hands down the best passive in the champion system for obvious reasons, especially in stamina starved 2.1 combat
120 Point Shadowstrike: After killing a target with a Heavy Attack, enter Stealth for 2.5 seconds.
Rating 4/5: Tailor made for melee combat which receives attack bonuses from stealth. Having to ensure you get the killing blow with a heavy attack keeps this from being a 5/5.
120 Point Tactician: Sets enemies off balance when you successfully Roll Dodge to avoid their attack.
Rating 4/5: Very useful and can be combined with exploiter (10% bonus damage)

Magicka Passives:
10 Point Vengeance: Guarantees your next Spell will be a critical hit, after you block 3 Spells.
Rating 1/5: Blocking is counterproductive for most magick users and a guaranteed crit is not particularly useful when you can't time when it is going to hit
30 Point Spell Precision: Increases your Spell Critical rating by 12%.
Rating 5/5: Best Magicka Passive but it is shared with the Stamina versin
75 Point Foresight: Reduces the Magicka cost of your next Spell by 80% after you drink a Potion.
Rating 2/5: Long cooldown makes this not particularly useful....plus Stamina users can benefit equally although the tree is something you'd never see a stamina user use
120 Point Arcane Well: Gives you a 20% chance when you kill an enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (795) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5 meters of the enemy.
Rating 3/5: Great in PvE, not even remotely useful in PvP unless you're Zerg AoE bombing people while in a tightly packed group

Seems rather unbalanced if you ask me.

Darkonflare15 · September 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me. The proof is clearly in screenshots above you. These things are not equal. Magicka users are able to stack less damage (or use more CP to achieve the same effect). They also nullify less damage against their stamina counterparts. Sure there is reinforced and nirn but the two scale similarly now so it's a moot point. Are you honestly not able to see that my 100 points into elemental expert is negated by 100 points into elemental defender?

I do 25% more damage with fire and yet you take 25% less damage with fire.
You do 25% more damage with physical and I have nothing in CP that can counter that. GG

To rub Salt in the wound Jules, its worse then just the Champion System.

Magic Users get the following
Spell Cost Reduction from Champ System
Spell Cost Reduction from Light Armor
Magic Recovery from Champ system
Magic Recovery from Light Armor
Spell Crit from Champ System
Spell Crit from Light Armor
Spell Pen from Champ System
Spell Pen from Light Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Champ System

Stamina Users get the following
Stamina Cost Reduction from Champ System
Stamina Cost Reduction from Med Armor
Stam Recovery from Champ system
Stam Recovery from Med Armor
Wep Crit from Champ System
Armor Pen from Champ System
Wep Crit from Med Armor
Wep Damage from Med Armor
Reduced Sneak Cost from Med Armor
Reduced Detection range from Med Armor
Increased Movement Speed from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Champ System
Two handed Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Balanced Blade)
Bow Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Ranger)
Dual Wield get 20% Cost Reduction (Controlled Fury)
ALL Stamina Class Skill Morphs cost 20% less then the magic counter parts(2.1 patch notes test it if you don't believe me)

So if one can't see the obvious disparity here, I don't know what to say....All Stamina abilities not only get more benefits from the Champ system, they also cost 20% less then their magic counterparts and also do more damage then their magic counterparts....

There is a HUGE disparity here...Med Armor gets all these great Sneak, Dodge roll, Movement Speed, and Sprinting benefits for mobility on top of all their abilties doing more damage then magic versions for 20% less cost, Magic Classes have damage shields to make up for their clear lack of anything like this and we get nerfed into the ground.

its ironic really, stamina has EVERY advantage in the world, even healing now thanks to Vigor...Vigor is almost a better heal then Templar's BOL, yet damage shields are still what everyone crys about when in reality magic builds are at a disadvantage across the board and the 20% cost reduction on all stmaina skills that do more damage then any of the magic counterparts is just icing in the cake.

I pointed this out last year and was ignored.....look at the differences in that list..its absurd....I say take a drink and get used to it, its doubltful Zen changes anything unfortunately.

PS: good vids on the new dungeons BTW Jules, very well presented.

You seem to forget that you have use roll dodge, block, cc break, for stamina. All of these things are helpful to magic users too. Since they do not have a lot of stamina. So most of the champ system that helps in this also works for them. Also remember it is easier to run out of stamina since you have to use multiple things that uses stamina.

Magicka
Use abilities for attacks
Use abilities for defensive spells
Use abilities for magic utility

Stamina
Use abilities for attacks
Use abilities for defensive skills
Use abilities for stamina utility
Sneaking
roll dodge
cc/break
Block

Also most of your examples are base off the fact that there is more stamina base weapons compare to magicka weapons while their is more magicka base class skills compare to stamina. The only reason stamina user got so many buffs is to keep up with magic users since they have to rely on so many sources for stamina. So I think it is a lot more balanced then what you make it out to be.

Minno · September 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Can FENGRUSH use overload on His stam sorc yet? No? OK thanks everyone.

Hands off my overload you filthy stammie! IF FENGRUSH wants to cast spells he better put on his robe and wizard hat and drop that sword!

:'(
If FENGRUSH puts on a wizard hat will overload scale with stam properly?! Willing to make some sacrifices here.

You shall not...pass? Lol

frozywozy · September 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me. The proof is clearly in screenshots above you. These things are not equal. Magicka users are able to stack less damage (or use more CP to achieve the same effect). They also nullify less damage against their stamina counterparts. Sure there is reinforced and nirn but the two scale similarly now so it's a moot point. Are you honestly not able to see that my 100 points into elemental expert is negated by 100 points into elemental defender?

I do 25% more damage with fire and yet you take 25% less damage with fire.
You do 25% more damage with physical and I have nothing in CP that can counter that. GG

To rub Salt in the wound Jules, its worse then just the Champion System.

Magic Users get the following
Spell Cost Reduction from Champ System
Spell Cost Reduction from Light Armor
Magic Recovery from Champ system
Magic Recovery from Light Armor
Spell Crit from Champ System
Spell Crit from Light Armor
Spell Pen from Champ System
Spell Pen from Light Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Champ System

Stamina Users get the following
Stamina Cost Reduction from Champ System
Stamina Cost Reduction from Med Armor
Stam Recovery from Champ system
Stam Recovery from Med Armor
Wep Crit from Champ System
Armor Pen from Champ System
Wep Crit from Med Armor
Wep Damage from Med Armor
Reduced Sneak Cost from Med Armor
Reduced Detection range from Med Armor
Increased Movement Speed from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Champ System
Two handed Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Balanced Blade)
Bow Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Ranger)
Dual Wield get 20% Cost Reduction (Controlled Fury)
ALL Stamina Class Skill Morphs cost 20% less then the magic counter parts(2.1 patch notes test it if you don't believe me)

So if one can't see the obvious disparity here, I don't know what to say....All Stamina abilities not only get more benefits from the Champ system, they also cost 20% less then their magic counterparts and also do more damage then their magic counterparts....

There is a HUGE disparity here...Med Armor gets all these great Sneak, Dodge roll, Movement Speed, and Sprinting benefits for mobility on top of all their abilties doing more damage then magic versions for 20% less cost, Magic Classes have damage shields to make up for their clear lack of anything like this and we get nerfed into the ground.

its ironic really, stamina has EVERY advantage in the world, even healing now thanks to Vigor...Vigor is almost a better heal then Templar's BOL, yet damage shields are still what everyone crys about when in reality magic builds are at a disadvantage across the board and the 20% cost reduction on all stmaina skills that do more damage then any of the magic counterparts is just icing in the cake.

I pointed this out last year and was ignored.....look at the differences in that list..its absurd....I say take a drink and get used to it, its doubltful Zen changes anything unfortunately.

PS: good vids on the new dungeons BTW Jules, very well presented.

You seem to forget that you have use roll dodge, block, cc break, for stamina. All of these things are helpful to magic users too. Since they do not have a lot of stamina. So most of the champ system that helps in this also works for them. Also remember it is easier to run out of stamina since you have to use multiple things that uses stamina.

Magicka
Use abilities for attacks
Use abilities for defensive spells
Use abilities for magic utility

Stamina
Use abilities for attacks
Use abilities for defensive skills
Use abilities for stamina utility
Sneaking
roll dodge
cc/break
Block

Also most of your examples are base off the fact that there is more stamina base weapons compare to magicka weapons while their is more magicka base class skills compare to stamina. The only reason stamina user got so many buffs is to keep up with magic users since they have to rely on so many sources for stamina. So I think it is a lot more balanced then what you make it out to be.

Other than "reducing the cost of stamina abilities" or "reduce the cost of break free/dodge rolling, other champion points such as stamina recovery increase doesn't help magicka classes. You need a minimum of 1250-1300 stamina recovery to make it worth spending points in there. Otherwise you should invest into cost reduction.