Please Fix Broken Champion Points --Sincerely, Magicka Users

Jules

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.


2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)



Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

Ezareth

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)


Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

Jules

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)


Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

I never even thought about this and now I can't even.
Who designed this?! This was brought up to people six months ago ?!

Maulkin

Magic ≠ Elemental damage

For example Crystal Fragments is magic damage that is mitigated by Hardy, not Elemental Defender. Whereas Lava Whip is elemental damage that is mitigated by Elemental Defender, not Hardy.

That % reduction from the passive is applied on the base, before your Spell Resistance is taken into account.

That said, magic/elemental DoTs can be mitigated a bit too much. In a hypothetical scenario where you have all CPs you can stack Elemental Defender with Thick Skinned and magicka DoTs from skills like Elemental Ring or Burning Embers can barely even tickle.

However, I don't (at the moment) mind if magic hits a bit softer than physical. There is more utility and diversity provided from playing magicka builds so something has to be the counter-balance to that.

Trayyacakes

There is also the spell shield passive which increases spell resistance, and scales far better than the increase armor when wearing at least 5 pieces champion points.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I don't see a problem with thaumaturge. You need to keep in mind, that not every skill that costs stamina will do physical damage. In fact magicka dks will have more skills buffed with just using elemental expert than any stamina build with mighty.

timidobserver

I agree with this thread. As a magicka Templar, it sucks being forced into Thaumaturge to increase the damage of puncturing sweep.

Minno

Also should be noted, you can increase the armor of your armor of choice to help mitigate physical dmg.
Combine with dodge skills can be a viable defense.

Xeven

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Magic ≠ Elemental damage

For example Crystal Fragments is magic damage that is mitigated by Hardy, not Elemental Defender. Whereas Lava Whip is elemental damage that is mitigated by Elemental Defender, not Hardy.

That % reduction from the passive is applied on the base, before your Spell Resistance is taken into account.

That said, magic/elemental DoTs can be mitigated a bit too much. In a hypothetical scenario where you have all CPs you can stack Elemental Defender with Thick Skinned and magicka DoTs from skills like Elemental Ring or Burning Embers can barely even tickle.

However, I don't (at the moment) mind if magic hits a bit softer than physical. There is more utility and diversity provided from playing magicka builds so something has to be the counter-balance to that.

Im not sure if I buy into the whole magicka has range and utility so stamina gets all the things bit anymore.

Stamina users are teleporting around like madmen with gap closers, and they have bow, which is awesome. They dont have any problems getting up in your face. They have vigor. The best aoe. The hardest hitting abilities. CP advantages...

Theyre not in any more danger in large combat either. Ranged people are getting sniped and detonated and seiged just as much. Now with shield breaker, theyre being sniped from range even more.

Soulac

1) Elemental Damage is not Magic Damage, meaning that crushing shock will only increase with elemental expert and reduced by elemental defender and skills like concealed weapon will only increase with thaumaturge and get reduced by hardy.

2) Stamina Morphs of class abilities mostly deal magic damage, so stamina builds using them are forced to put points in mighty for other stamina abilities AND thaumaturge for class abilities. Example: Soul Harvest, Impale, Grim Focus, most ultimates including batswarm

3) Stamina Builds also got Dots - just saying


Meaning:
You´re not forced to put points in thaumaturge AND elemental defender unless you use elemental AND magic abilities, but that also applies on stamina builds using ultimates and class abilities dealing magic dmg, but scaling with stamina and weapondmg.

Grim Focus, Power Extraction, VoB - all weak compared to magicka builds using them and that with more tooltip dmg as stamina build.

So.. who got it worse? <.<

AhPook_Is_Here

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)


Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

That's not totally true, the off-balance 10% damage bonus works fine for magicka NBs but it is so awkward spending a lot of points in that tree for 10% bonus damage on a few attacks without at least dumping 30 in the magicka damage tree. for anything other than burst PVP dps, you lose a ton more damage on crit damage multipliers and self-healing. Still that 10% feels good in clouding swarm spamming concealed weapon.

Ezareth

Jules wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)


Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

I never even thought about this and now I can't even.
Who designed this?! This was brought up to people six months ago ?!

She is no longer with the company as of May.

The double reduction combination was not mentioned (or known at that point that I'm aware of) but the other two were by WRX(I believe) in the TS meeting. It may have been longer than 6 months, I can't recall the exact date of the meeting. The obvious bias of champion passives and abilities towards stamina builds is quite obvious and this is something that hasn't been brought up by myself and many others several times.

Let's look at and rate all of the Combat Magicka passives versus the Stamina passives, if a passive is not a combat passive or benefits magicka and stamina builds relatively equally I didn't include it.

Stamina Passives:

10 Point Retaliation: Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 30% after blocking a Heavy Attack.
Rating 4/5 : Extremely powerful for a skilled stamina player who is aware of the passive
10 Point Opportunist: Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 15% after you interrupt a target.
Rating 4/5: Can be combined with Retaliation and is used exclusively against casters
10 Point Invigorating Bash: Gives you a 20% chance to restore (437) Health when you Bash an enemy.
Rating 2/5: Very useful if you're using sword and board, bugged when using weapons to bash
30 Point Perfect Strike: Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 12%.
Rating 5/5: Obvious reasons
30 Point Phase: After roll dodging, your Armor and Spell Resistance are increased by (640) for 3 seconds.
Rating 1/5: Bonus passive defense but it only works out to ~1% and is negligible
30 Point Riposte: While blocking, 15% chance to return you (Weapon Damage * 2) to the attacker when you block a melee attack. This can only happen once every 5 seconds.
2/5: With the block nerf this has become far less useful but can do decent damage
120 Point Wind Running: Increases your Movement Speed by 2%. This applies to all types of movement. Also increases Health and Magicka Regeneration by 10% while sprinting.
Rating 3/5: Makes permanent sprinting and double-take spam much easier
120 Point Unchained: Reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 3 seconds after breaking free of a stun, knockdown, fear, disorient or stagger.
Rating 5/5: Hands down the best passive in the champion system for obvious reasons, especially in stamina starved 2.1 combat
120 Point Shadowstrike: After killing a target with a Heavy Attack, enter Stealth for 2.5 seconds.
Rating 4/5: Tailor made for melee combat which receives attack bonuses from stealth. Having to ensure you get the killing blow with a heavy attack keeps this from being a 5/5.
120 Point Tactician: Sets enemies off balance when you successfully Roll Dodge to avoid their attack.
Rating 4/5: Very useful and can be combined with exploiter (10% bonus damage)


Magicka Passives:
10 Point Vengeance: Guarantees your next Spell will be a critical hit, after you block 3 Spells.
Rating 1/5: Blocking is counterproductive for most magick users and a guaranteed crit is not particularly useful when you can't time when it is going to hit
30 Point Spell Precision: Increases your Spell Critical rating by 12%.
Rating 5/5: Best Magicka Passive but it is shared with the Stamina versin
75 Point Foresight: Reduces the Magicka cost of your next Spell by 80% after you drink a Potion.
Rating 2/5: Long cooldown makes this not particularly useful....plus Stamina users can benefit equally although the tree is something you'd never see a stamina user use
120 Point Arcane Well: Gives you a 20% chance when you kill an enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (795) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5 meters of the enemy.
Rating 3/5: Great in PvE, not even remotely useful in PvP unless you're Zerg AoE bombing people while in a tightly packed group

Jeckll

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

timidobserver

Minno wrote: »

Also should be noted, you can increase the armor of your armor of choice to help mitigate physical dmg.
Combine with dodge skills can be a viable defense.

Yes, but for magicka damage your can increase your armor and then you have 3 other ways to additionally reduce the damage. For physical damage, you just have the one and you have to be wearing 5 pieces of the type of armor for it to work.

Alucardo

I agree so hard with this. SO HARD

Alucardo

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Doesn't make his point any less valid.

Jeckll

Alucardo wrote: »

Doesn't make his point any less valid.

Well even his headline suggests it's a Magicka User issue. Lets look at Magicka DK. Oh, like 100% of his damage is Fire...Ele Expert and yolo.

There are issues with the CP System, but it's not Magicka specific.

Yonkit

Yah it's not as one sided as it seems as jeckll pointed out, and with the general increase to physical resistance coupled with the fixing of mace and sharpened stam users are probably where they need to be. I've also been whipped for 8k as a non-vamp in cyrodil, so I cannot in good conscience lament for the cp trees. Mighty does not benefit everything that I want it to, but in order to maximize that tree line, I gave up the bow for now until I can fully spec into pretty much the entire tree. Really the truest winners in the cp designs are DK's who have a dedicated power branch, then the highest potential off the heavy/light stave attacks with molten armaments, so hopefully DK's will get a big nerf in the future

Forestd16b14_ESO

So what your saying is want stamina users to be thrown under the bus again cause if I recall 2.1 pretty much did that already giving massive boost to magical users and throwing stamina users under the bus .... it was a short lived life.

Jules

Yonkit wrote: »

Yah it's not as one sided as it seems as jeckll pointed out, and with the general increase to physical resistance coupled with the fixing of mace and sharpened stam users are probably where they need to be. I've also been whipped for 8k as a non-vamp in cyrodil, so I cannot in good conscience lament for the cp trees. Mighty does not benefit everything that I want it to, but in order to maximize that tree line, I gave up the bow for now until I can fully spec into pretty much the entire tree. Really the truest winners in the cp designs are DK's who have a dedicated power branch, then the highest potential off the heavy/light stave attacks with molten armaments, so hopefully DK's will get a big nerf in the future

On the contrary Yonkit. Dks are not in any way the "truest winners" of the cp design as someone can spec into elemental defender and thick skinned and negate whatever % damage I'm getting from elemental expert. However if you look at stamina nightblade, they can increase their physical damage by up to 25% and there is nothing in champion point trees that can identically negate that in the same way.

Jules

Jeckll wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Doesn't make his point any less valid.

Well even his headline suggests it's a Magicka User issue. Lets look at Magicka DK. Oh, like 100% of his damage is Fire...Ele Expert and yolo.

There are issues with the CP System, but it's not Magicka specific.

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me. The proof is clearly in screenshots above you. These things are not equal. Magicka users are able to stack less damage (or use more CP to achieve the same effect). They also nullify less damage against their stamina counterparts. Sure there is reinforced and nirn but the two scale similarly now so it's a moot point. Are you honestly not able to see that my 100 points into elemental expert is negated by 100 points into elemental defender?

I do 25% more damage with fire and yet you take 25% less damage with fire.
You do 25% more damage with physical and I have nothing in CP that can counter that. GG

Ezareth

Jeckll wrote: »

Hi, Stamina Nightblade here.
~30% of my DPS relies on Thaumaturge (Poison Injection, Relentless Focus, Killer's Blade), 70% on Mighty
My Execute Skill Killer's Blade also scales with Elfborn instead of Precise Strikes
I use DW and Bow, which means I have to spec into Heavy Weapon Expert AND Bow Expert

There is also no Physical Damage Ultimate, meaning all Ultimates are by default stronger on Magicka classes.

You see OP, grass is always greener on the other side.

Using a non-stamina hybrid build does not really make a case. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone using killer blade in PvP and since it is a spell using Elfborn makes sense. I can't imagine Relentless Focus is a staple DPS even with the buff.

Unless you're rocking over 600 points there is no real point in putting points into Bow Expert.

Ezareth

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

There are two aspects of the Champion Point system that are incredibly broken in favor of stamina users at this time. Please consider the following:

1. Magicka users have to spec into both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to achieve the same result as Mighty. Are you kidding right now? Magicka users have to consider "what kind of damage is this? flame? magic? Where should I allocate my champion points, should I split between the two?" Stamina users have a flat "increases physical damage" champ point and just throw everything into there like yolo.

2. People are able to reduce/negate a magicka users build with the use of THREE CHAMPION POINTS-- Elemental Defender, Hardy, and Thick skinned. However there is NO CHAMPION POINT TO SPEC INTO TO REDUCE PHYSICAL DAMAGE (is this real life????)


Anyway, that's my gripe. Willing to hear people's opinions.

We pointed this out to Eric Wroebel in a guild TS meeting about 6 months ago. It was surprising to him at the time.

It should be noted that you can get a double reduction on some abilities like Hardy and Thick Skinned when a spell is both magic and a dot.

It should also be noted that Thaumaturge is in a Melee centric tree with all melee passives, making it even less powerful to max out as the passives are useless to casters.

That's not totally true, the off-balance 10% damage bonus works fine for magicka NBs but it is so awkward spending a lot of points in that tree for 10% bonus damage on a few attacks without at least dumping 30 in the magicka damage tree. for anything other than burst PVP dps, you lose a ton more damage on crit damage multipliers and self-healing. Still that 10% feels good in clouding swarm spamming concealed weapon.

Magicka nightblades and DKs and Templar can benefit from Exploiter but not Sorcs.

Mass Hysteria also procs Exploiter as well, no need for conceal ( =

Jules

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So what your saying is want stamina users to be thrown under the bus again cause if I recall 2.1 pretty much did that already giving massive boost to magical users and throwing stamina users under the bus .... it was a short lived life.

There was no "massive boost" to magicka. It's called stamina users used broken things like sharpened maces and nirnhoned armor (35k+ spell resist) in conjuncture with this champion point system to entirely negate magicka users. That is why stam reigned supreme. In 1.6 I used to see whips hit for 800. So it's less an issue of you got nerfed and more an issue of the game got fixed.

RinaldoGandolphi

Jules wrote: »

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me. The proof is clearly in screenshots above you. These things are not equal. Magicka users are able to stack less damage (or use more CP to achieve the same effect). They also nullify less damage against their stamina counterparts. Sure there is reinforced and nirn but the two scale similarly now so it's a moot point. Are you honestly not able to see that my 100 points into elemental expert is negated by 100 points into elemental defender?

I do 25% more damage with fire and yet you take 25% less damage with fire.
You do 25% more damage with physical and I have nothing in CP that can counter that. GG

To rub Salt in the wound Jules, its worse then just the Champion System.

Magic Users get the following
Spell Cost Reduction from Champ System
Spell Cost Reduction from Light Armor
Magic Recovery from Champ system
Magic Recovery from Light Armor
Spell Crit from Champ System
Spell Crit from Light Armor
Spell Pen from Champ System
Spell Pen from Light Armor

Stamina Users get the following
Stamina Cost Reduction from Champ System
Stamina Cost Reduction from Med Armor
Stam Recovery from Champ system
Stam Recovery from Med Armor
Wep Crit from Champ System
Armor Pen from Champ System
Wep Crit from Med Armor
Wep Damage from Med Armor
Reduced Sneak Cost from Med Armor
Reduced Detection range from Med Armor
Increased Movement Speed from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Med Armor
Decreased Dodge Roll Cost from Champ System
Two handed Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Balanced Blade)
Bow Skills get 20% Cost Reduction (Ranger)
Dual Wield get 20% Cost Reduction (Controlled Fury)
ALL Stamina Class Skill Morphs cost 20% less then the magic counter parts(2.1 patch notes test it if you don't believe me)


So if one can't see the obvious disparity here, I don't know what to say....All Stamina abilities not only get more benefits from the Champ system, they also cost 20% less then their magic counterparts and also do more damage then their magic counterparts....

There is a HUGE disparity here...Med Armor gets all these great Sneak, Dodge roll, Movement Speed, and Sprinting benefits for mobility on top of all their abilties doing more damage then magic versions for 20% less cost, Magic Classes have damage shields to make up for their clear lack of anything like this and we get nerfed into the ground.

its ironic really, stamina has EVERY advantage in the world, even healing now thanks to Vigor...Vigor is almost a better heal then Templar's BOL, yet damage shields are still what everyone crys about when in reality magic builds are at a disadvantage across the board and the 20% cost reduction on all stmaina skills that do more damage then any of the magic counterparts is just icing in the cake.

I pointed this out last year and was ignored.....look at the differences in that list..its absurd....I say take a drink and get used to it, its doubltful Zen changes anything unfortunately.

PS: good vids on the new dungeons BTW Jules, very well presented.

Ezareth

Jules wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So what your saying is want stamina users to be thrown under the bus again cause if I recall 2.1 pretty much did that already giving massive boost to magical users and throwing stamina users under the bus .... it was a short lived life.

There was no "massive boost" to magicka. It's called stamina users used broken things like sharpened maces and nirnhoned armor (35k+ spell resist) in conjuncture with this champion point system to entirely negate magicka users. That is why stam reigned supreme. In 1.6 I used to see whips hit for 800. So it's less an issue of you got nerfed and more an issue of the game got fixed.

800 damage whips was not a result of Nirnhoned and Sharpened maces didn't help against shield stacking sorcs or NBs running healing ward.

Jeckll

Ezareth wrote: »

Using a non-stamina hybrid build does not really make a case. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone using killer blade in PvP and since it is a spell using Elfborn makes sense. I can't imagine Relentless Focus is a staple DPS even with the buff.

Unless you're rocking over 600 points there is no real point in putting points into Bow Expert.

Your Imagination doesnt go very far, then. Using a Master's bow to apply Poison Injection for a strong Weapon Damage buff is a staple tactic in any Stamina based PvE Build. That's also where Relentless Focus is a Standard Skill.
I dont spend points in Bow Expert OR Heavy Weapon Expert. But it's 300 CP more to spend compared to Magicka based DPS that only use LA/MA/HA with Staves. You clearly only look at a PvP perspective. In PvE, things are a bit different.

Jules wrote: »

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me.

1) I showed you examples from a Stamina PoV
2) I showed you Magicka DK

I didnt say Magicka doesnt have that issue, I said Stamina also have issues with the CP System.
You are right there are imbalances, but you cant just look at one pillar of balance. In the grand scheme of things, without the Mitigation we get from the Lady vs "Magic based" stuff, a Crystal Frag would probably 1hit most players. With the fix of Nirn, Magicka based DPS already hits way harder than ion Update 6.

Yes it looks unfair you are right...but just changing it doesnt mean it's automatically balanced afterwards.

Jules

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So what your saying is want stamina users to be thrown under the bus again cause if I recall 2.1 pretty much did that already giving massive boost to magical users and throwing stamina users under the bus .... it was a short lived life.

There was no "massive boost" to magicka. It's called stamina users used broken things like sharpened maces and nirnhoned armor (35k+ spell resist) in conjuncture with this champion point system to entirely negate magicka users. That is why stam reigned supreme. In 1.6 I used to see whips hit for 800. So it's less an issue of you got nerfed and more an issue of the game got fixed.

800 damage whips was not a result of Nirnhoned and Sharpened maces didn't help against shield stacking sorcs or NBs running healing ward.

It wasn't 800 on every target, obviously. Just particular ones.

What do you propose was the cause of this incredibly weak skill in 1.6 if it wasn't directly correlated to nirnhoned stacking? You really think spell resist being maxed to insane levels had no affect whatsoever on this spell?
In this patch with nirnhoned being fixed, similar spell damage yields apprx 3.5-4.5k whips.

Jules

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Using a non-stamina hybrid build does not really make a case. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone using killer blade in PvP and since it is a spell using Elfborn makes sense. I can't imagine Relentless Focus is a staple DPS even with the buff.

Unless you're rocking over 600 points there is no real point in putting points into Bow Expert.

Your Imagination doesnt go very far, then. Using a Master's bow to apply Poison Injection for a strong Weapon Damage buff is a staple tactic in any Stamina based PvE Build. That's also where Relentless Focus is a Standard Skill.
I dont spend points in Bow Expert OR Heavy Weapon Expert. But it's 300 CP more to spend compared to Magicka based DPS that only use LA/MA/HA with Staves. You clearly only look at a PvP perspective. In PvE, things are a bit different.

Jules wrote: »

How you can say it's not magicka specific is beyond me.

1) I showed you examples from a Stamina PoV
2) I showed you Magicka DK

I didnt say Magicka doesnt have that issue, I said Stamina also have issues with the CP System.
You are right there are imbalances, but you cant just look at one pillar of balance. In the grand scheme of things, without the Mitigation we get from the Lady vs "Magic based" stuff, a Crystal Frag would probably 1hit most players. With the fix of Nirn, Magicka based DPS already hits way harder than ion Update 6.

Yes it looks unfair you are right...but just changing it doesnt mean it's automatically balanced afterwards.

Sure, crystal frags hits hard af. If thats the case, then fix crystal frags to bring it more in line with other skills.

It's insane to gimp ALL magicka users bc of this logic. It doesn't just LOOK unfair it IS unfair. The champion point system gives stam users a plethora of mitigation to our damage and does not give us the same courtesy. It's that simple.

Jeckll

Jules wrote: »

Sure, crystal frags hits hard af. If thats the case, then fix crystal frags to bring it more in line with other skills.

It's insane to gimp ALL magicka users bc of this logic. It doesn't just LOOK unfair it IS unfair. The champion point system gives stam users a plethora of mitigation to our damage and does not us the same courtesy. It's that simple.

You are 100% right. Several Skills need to be redone when they change the CP System in the way you desire. Look even with the insanely broken Nirnhorned, Magicka still did kind of decent overall. It wasnt only crystal frags, we all know the heavy hitters. The Damage I get from Stamina Users and Magicka Users in IC is kind of even atm...didnt feel like a particular style does WAY more damage like it was the case in Update 6.

So yeah, I would gladly take your wishes if ZOS also balances Magicka Skills at the same time to be in line with Stamina skills.

Alomar

^^^ All of this ^^^

Wtb developers, or is there a new console system they need them all for months to adapt the code for again?