The major nerf to Rally broke balance in PvP

Gern_Verkheart · September 2015

This was the reason I left this game a year ago. I came back because I heard that they finally fixed it so stamina based builds could hold their own in PvP and PvE. And before the patch that really felt to be the case. Yes, sorcerers were very overpowered, but that isn't the point. Both stamina users and magicka users had good heals via Rally on the 2 handed weps for stamina users, and all the heals on healing staff for magicka users. But now that the heal on rally has been nerfed into the ground (seriously, it's worthless now) PvP feels almost as bad as it did a year ago. If you aren't a magicka user, you no longer have access to any good self heals, meaning that in any fight a magicka user can simply outlast you.

MmmmTofu · September 2015

AFAIK all healing got nerfed in PvP zones. Did they further nerf Rally besides the cost increase?

ontheleftcoast · September 2015

One word: Vigor

Apparently it's what all the "kewl kidz" use on stamina builds now.

Teiji · September 2015

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

PvP feels almost as bad as it did a year ago.

False. PvP was regulated through soft-caps a year ago, shortly after it was regulated through lag. PvP was anything but bad a year ago, you may have found it irritating, maybe even dislike it, but was it bad? Factually? No, definitely not, truly?

This is what PvP used to be a year ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BhwhwX38o

Notice all the lag which is not going on?

Troneon · September 2015

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

This was the reason I left this game a year ago. I came back because I heard that they finally fixed it so stamina based builds could hold their own in PvP and PvE. And before the patch that really felt to be the case. Yes, sorcerers were very overpowered, but that isn't the point. Both stamina users and magicka users had good heals via Rally on the 2 handed weps for stamina users, and all the heals on healing staff for magicka users. But now that the heal on rally has been nerfed into the ground (seriously, it's worthless now) PvP feels almost as bad as it did a year ago. If you aren't a magicka user, you no longer have access to any good self heals, meaning that in any fight a magicka user can simply outlast you.

The current stamina sorc build with mega self heals, insane weapon power/stamina, negates, mobility and 15-20k tornado aoe spam would like to say hi....

Posting in the "something I used has changed and I don't know how to adapt so I make a whine post thread"...

J2JMC · September 2015

Welcome to the life of dual-wield classes...

Ahzek · September 2015

@Tronron, because a PvE farm build is so impactfull on PvP build balance.
On topic : rally is still a decent heal and can crit for over 6-7k for me, depending on the situation. It now however 100% needs the backup of vigor to actually do its work.

Troneon · September 2015

@Ahzek

I was talking about pvp....not pve...

That build exists and it wrecks in IC...

chevalierknight · September 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

@Tronron, because a PvE farm build is so impactfull on PvP build balance.
On topic : rally is still a decent heal and can crit for over 6-7k for me, depending on the situation. It now however 100% needs the backup of vigor to actually do its work.

Watch deltias youtube channle stam sorc is"a walking god in pvp" his words he said in his last vid his stam sorc is hitting 6k heals every steel tornado EVERY CAST

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

chevalierknight wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

@Tronron, because a PvE farm build is so impactfull on PvP build balance.
On topic : rally is still a decent heal and can crit for over 6-7k for me, depending on the situation. It now however 100% needs the backup of vigor to actually do its work.

Watch deltias youtube channle stam sorc is"a walking god in pvp" his words he said in his last vid his stam sorc is hitting 6k heals every steel tornado EVERY CAST

He is NOT getting 6K heals off players, just mobs.

This misinformation needs to stop now. Stam sorc isn't a walking god. Stamina sorcerer is dead last in line for a viable stamina build for PVP. Note that I said PVP, which means fighting other players, not stupid mobs.

Sure you can crank out high weapon damage and stam on a sorcerer now but you lose so much utility doing that because you have to slot sorc skills for that high damage and sorcerers lack good stamina skills. Deltia's weapon and stam stacking build is works great on braindead mobs that don't block, don't CC you, and don't know how to counter steel tornado. The moment they nerf steel tornado, Deltias stam sorc PvE build dies. A class build that relies on one non class skill to work is not a true class build.

Now, on to crit surge. They did improve it in this patch by reducing that terrible cooldown they put on it but they didn't remove it like they should have. (and just limit heal returns to 6 sources like other aoe heals)

You know what happens when you try to crit heal off a player? First, your damage against players is much lower because everyone is stacking mitigation or shields. Damage shield? Your (unmitigated) 10k steel tornado gets absorbed by a 7k shield doing only 3K in damage and healing for 1.7k. There is STILL a cooldown on crit surge so don't think you are going to heal from multiple targets simultaneously.

Stamina sorcs were promised fixes in this patch and got a few minor tweaks that didn't even address the issues with the class as a whole. They still lack class based stamina powered direct damage skills that every other class has.

For a detailed breakdown of why stamina sorc is still in a rough spot go HERE - Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Troneon · September 2015

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Like we said a few times, go watch it for yourself...it was pvp...and players...completely wrecked...

Stam sorc is awesome.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

Troneon wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Like we said a few times, go watch it for yourself...it was pvp...and players...completely wrecked...

Stam sorc is awesome.

Is there a link on his twitch?

I want stam sorc to happen as much as anyone, I'm just skeptical.

Edit: Watched the trailer for his sorc video on youtube. He is fighting mobs...

Troneon · September 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Troneon wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Like we said a few times, go watch it for yourself...it was pvp...and players...completely wrecked...

Stam sorc is awesome.

Is there a link on his twitch?

I want stam sorc to happen as much as anyone, I'm just skeptical.

Edit: Watched the trailer for his sorc video on youtube. He is fighting mobs...

@Yolokin_Swagonborn @Ahzek

It was on stream, twitch.tv/deltiasgaming/v/14467264 watch the whole thing. This was just a highlight there were plenty more fights.

But yeah 7.1k(x7) steel tornado's...with crazy insane self heals...from blood magic, surge heal, critical leech, resilient. Obviously gear and other things make the build work too but you get the idea...

Now add negates and awesome mobility...

Against players...you can watch the whole 3 hours of stream if you like.

STAM SORC is awesome. oh and just fyi, that build is a work in progress it is not even finished yet and is not maxed fully...it will be pretty godly...

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

Here is a video of Konishiki doing the same thing in 1.6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FuR-uDvW_c

If you have a whole group with you spamming heals, purges and buffs, of course you can run a build strictly dedicated to tornado spam. This isn't exactly groundbreaking but people months ago were trying to tell me stam sorc was ok because of that video.

Even I predicted that stam sorc would be strong in Zerg Bomb groups. The problem is that people are going to see this video and claim that stamina sorcs are fine because they can AOE bomb. Just like what happened in the templar issues threads. People would hijack the thread and say "Templars are fine because jesus beam!" and ignore all the other issues with the class.

Show me a small group PVP video outside of the IC or a solo/roaming build as a stamina sorc and then I will say the class is in a good place in terms of stamina.

Not to take anything away from deltia build. This is a great build for the imperial city because the imperial city is nothing but AOEing mobs and zerging in big groups but it in no way makes stamina sorc an "all around" build like the other stamina class builds.

sagitter · September 2015

Teiji wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

PvP feels almost as bad as it did a year ago.

False. PvP was regulated through soft-caps a year ago, shortly after it was regulated through lag. PvP was anything but bad a year ago, you may have found it irritating, maybe even dislike it, but was it bad? Factually? No, definitely not, truly?

This is what PvP used to be a year ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BhwhwX38o

Notice all the lag which is not going on?

YES YES, and than after a bit, when you realized you weren't dreaming, you could see exploiters hunters have find their way through the jungle of Eso exploits and broken mechanics and this is just 1 example of what happened a bit later :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwbXc9KDYcU

alt3rEgo · September 2015

You still have Wrecking Blow as a Stun and Damage Booster with insane Damage. That should be enough.

Ahzek · September 2015

@Yolokin_Swagonborn, @alt3rEgo Uppercut is indeed one of the most powerful single target pressure tools available to stam sorc. But that is hardly sorc specific, and there are many stamina builds that start falling back to uppercut woth IC, just because of the combination of strong effects it provides.
What i think most stam sorcs want is a class specific trademark move, similar to how leap, jabs and surprise attack/cloak give the other classes some certain sort of flavor as a stam build, i want something unique for my sorc. There have been many debates about what, so we don't have to repeat that all over again.

@Troneon I could give you ANY other build in that environment Deltia is running and it wouldnt change the outcome one bit. Even a light attack spamming stamina templar with double restro staff and no class skills would have been a viable replacement. Deltias build might be effective in a zerg v zerg situation, but thats about it. For those stam sorc that don't want to run around in circles (granted the circles can be quite big in the sewers) and shout "CHOOOoooo CHOOOooo" there is not much that makes the class stand out.

Egonieser · September 2015

Regardless what Deltia suggests, running a stamina sorcerer is basically suicide. I have a magicka sorcerer and tried stamina at one point and the difference is day and night. Killing a few noobs in PvP does not make the build good, it just means you met a few noobs.
I've met a few stamina sorcs on a battlefield and i can trash them where they stand without the need for any wards for heals. They will never be as effective as any other stamina classes unless major changes and more stamina morphs for class skills are available. Relying only on weapon skills does not make the class viable, the lack of stamina morphs make them useless because they don't scale and consume large amounts of magicka - the one thing stamina class doesn't have.

alt3rEgo · September 2015

Beside all that Stamina Sorc Story this is the first Game I've ever seen with Sorcs trying to use Stamina and Nightblades have to use Magicka. I wonder if it wasn't possible to create the classic class system. Like if you want to use Magic you need Magicka and if you want to be Assassin you need Stamina.

Master_Kas · September 2015

With the increased cost of rally, ontop on that the burst heal seems severely nerfed. You're better of just using rally from time to time to activate the hot. And use vigor as your main heal.

And dodgeroll.. until you're out of stamina and die to the skirt and staff user

Ahzek · September 2015

@Egonieser you downplay the abilities of stam sorcs imo. I maganged to take on quite a few decent magicka sorcs on my own and kill them, as long as the fight stays balanced numbers wise.
As it stands right now stam sorcs are not complete trash and personnal skill/CP can make up for the shortcommings of the build in open world PvP. However as i said previously stam sorc lack identity and something that turns them into more than a neutral weapon specc with Lightning form and crit surge.

MaxwellC · September 2015

I'm a console peasant now so this is some rough news, I had only heard they increased the cost of rally but the heals have been nerf'd too... As a stamina DK using 2h/ 1H/shield this is going to be pretty awful. Looks like I really have to stop putting my CP into physical damage/armor penetration and focus them into self heals to keep ahead of the game.

david.haypreub18_ESO · September 2015

chevalierknight wrote: »

Watch deltias youtube channle stam sorc is"a walking god in pvp" his words he said in his last vid his stam sorc is hitting 6k heals every steel tornado EVERY CAST

He also called Templars 'walking gods' when 1.6 came out.

Take what he says with a grain of salt. He has a great website and a good knowledge of PvE, but for PvP I've never found him particularly accurate.

Egonieser · September 2015

Ahzek wrote: »

@Egonieser you downplay the abilities of stam sorcs imo. I maganged to take on quite a few decent magicka sorcs on my own and kill them, as long as the fight stays balanced numbers wise.
As it stands right now stam sorcs are not complete trash and personnal skill/CP can make up for the shortcommings of the build in open world PvP. However as i said previously stam sorc lack identity and something that turns them into more than a neutral weapon specc with Lightning form and crit surge.

I'm not doubting your skill and CP, same can be said about other shortcomings of other builds, but we're talking about raw class abilities and base numbers, not everyone is hardcore enough to be viable, or even good with it. It takes a lot of practice and CP's to balance out the downsides and a casual player just might not have the ability/time/elbow grease to do so.. Why bother when there are already completely viable classes that come stamina-ready with stamina morphs and passives.
Regardless of someone's independant skill and CP amount, stamina sorcs come last in stamina food chain. Are they interesting and fun to play? Yeah. Are they as deadly and versatile as NB/DK/Templar? No.

daswahnsinn · September 2015

I have a Stam DK and I think PVP is fine. I don't feel OP but I still have fun. I can solo and help out my guildies.

chevalierknight · September 2015

Egonieser wrote: »

Regardless what Deltia suggests, running a stamina sorcerer is basically suicide. I have a magicka sorcerer and tried stamina at one point and the difference is day and night. Killing a few noobs in PvP does not make the build good, it just means you met a few noobs.
I've met a few stamina sorcs on a battlefield and i can trash them where they stand without the need for any wards for heals. They will never be as effective as any other stamina classes unless major changes and more stamina morphs for class skills are available. Relying only on weapon skills does not make the class viable, the lack of stamina morphs make them useless because they don't scale and consume large amounts of magicka - the one thing stamina class doesn't have.

That was 1.6 this is 7 stop talking about stam sorc per patch. He was fighting players in his stream sypher kingrich deltia and lefty have all said on stream stam sorc is the new meta in PVP noone cares about your 1.6 stam sorc

Watch deltias stream highlights he was pvp wiping groups out but by all means stick your head in sand

chevalierknight · September 2015

alt3rEgo wrote: »

Beside all that Stamina Sorc Story this is the first Game I've ever seen with Sorcs trying to use Stamina and Nightblades have to use Magicka. I wonder if it wasn't possible to create the classic class system. Like if you want to use Magic you need Magicka and if you want to be Assassin you need Stamina.

In oblivion nightblades used magic

LiquidZ · September 2015

The speed at which players are moving in that first video seems slower. It also seems like it would make for a lot better pvp.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

To be fair rally did need some sort of nerf, a Dmg buff that be cast in stealth, lasts 30 seconds, come with a Hot and a burst heal thats better than GDB.

Yeah it needed a nerf.

ArvenAldmeri · September 2015

The nerf on healing hitted Rally very hard. And I agree it became completely useless. The heal that I got from it after 20 seconds was 3k... after 20 seconds and that heal over time is laughtable... Its really too bad right now. In addition to the increased cost... Come on ZOS... increase the heal. My stamina NB has for now no way to effectively heal herself...

leepalmer95 · September 2015

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

The nerf on healing hitted Rally very hard. And I agree it became completely useless. The heal that I got from it after 20 seconds was 3k... after 20 seconds and that heal over time is laughtable... Its really too bad right now. In addition to the increased cost... Come on ZOS... increase the heal. My stamina NB has for now no way to effectively heal herself...

Vigor?