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ESO dilemma
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coryrenick_ESO wrote: »coryrenick_ESO wrote: »There you go again.. Your not the only one playing the game. Other people are figuring things out just fine. I understand what your trying to say dont worry i partly agree with you 1.6 is complete trash. To you 1.7 might seem like a step forward and it might be. But its really just a continuation of the terrible 1.6 patch.
I'm not the only one playing, you're right. By your logic though, I can hardly be the only one discouraged the nature of 1.6 PvP, either. You're still equating success with the correct amount of effort, and failure with not enough. Neither is a good representation of effort put forth. But to me, 1.7's universal damage nerf gives all the noobs a better chance while taking very little away from the truly skilled. They'll still be able to kill, it may just take longer.
I'm equating success not just with effort but with knowledge. I can give you the build enchant for enchant skill for skill armor for armor. If you dont know how to use it what good is it?
It would be useless. We both know this.
But like I keep saying, you have to spend enough time in the fight to work out the cause and effect of things, and there's much less likelihood of that happening if you spend all your time dead and in transit. It just pushes people to the zerg.
I used to test my builds out on pve mobs before trying it on live players. Seems like a radical idea i know. We are both bickering about different things. A lot of what im saying has nothing to do with how you play the game in 1.6 or now. Its more about how things were before 1.6. I'm not trying to say that you or anyone now is not putting in effort and trying to be better. But that because some people actually think like my OP the game never got played to its full potential. Most people didnt care about playing to their maximum potential even if it meant their build wasnt always as effective in the grand scheme of things. No one bothered to pay attention to the little things it seemed like.
This is why leading random pugs from cyrodiil was a suicide mission. Its why every time you used to show up to a keep everyone was just standing around. 90% of the people it seemed like didnt know how to play the game.
No, that's not a radical idea. I've learned to rock Craglorn solo for the most part using stuff I learned trying to prepare myself for PvP. For me, it just never seemed to transfer to PvP. I could tear ass across Spell Scar and Upper Craglorn with little worry baring the odd Orc Ranger that I missed the telegraph for Taking Aim. Despite that, seemed that as soon as I got to PvP I got taken down like I was naked and hit like I was bareknuckled. I've been enjoying 1.7 now that I don't die quite so quickly, and have a few more questions and insights into what I probably should be doing. Still plenty of frustration. It's just that it didn't rob anyone of anything but a little extra time. You can still tweak your build to your heart's content and squeeze out every little spec of damage, defense, and regen, while I won't instantly bite it at a skill level where such tweaking would be lost on me.0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@krim I miss the days of fighting against you and Pixy, i won some, lost some, but man you knew it was going to be on heck of a fun ride when you two showed up! I really miss that! Haderus last year was so much fun.
@WRX you hit the nail on the head bud.
Part of me has been debating coming back to try it out, but I saw another one of my respected rivals...Leper Si posted a vid on his Youtube he is quitting too....it a shame...all the folks i know on opposing factions that are not only good players, but solid class people like Leper, Krim, Pixy, etc...they are all gone....I never thought id see the day even WRX is becoming disenfranchised with the game, and say what you will, but WRX cares about this game,. not only is he a good player and a good leader, he and @manny254 had class to back off and allow my small guild of blues to take some stuff on Thorn a few months ago so they were not presiding over a dead map. I have nothing but respect for those guys, all around just class people who are very good at what they do.
if the vids and what folks like Leper are posting is true, i see a mass exodus of players in the not so distant future. Most people that play MMO's are in not only for the challenge, they are in it for the mental stimulation of theorycrafting and breaking down numbers of what works and what don't.
What fun would a heavy equipment mechanic have if he couldn't take apart what he is working on? By minimizing the importance of builds and reducing combat to uninteresting levels as it appears, they will lose a lot of people to the next MMO that allows them to do what they love(tear apart the engine) when doing that actually matters and has benefits....
i dunno im still debating if its worth coming back to try or not...i know a few days before live the PTS just wasn't my kind of game anymore....im not sure, i'll sleep on it a few days i suppose.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moving the game towards passive defense vs active is a bad move, the problem wasn't with blocking or dodging last patch, it was the lack of a softcap.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos4 -
Poxheart✭✭✭✭✭When reading the OP I repclaced all the Bs with DDs.Unsubbed and no longer playing, but still checking the Alliance War forum for the lulz.
Pox Dragon Knight
Poxheart Nightblade
The Murder Hobo Dragon Knight - Blackwater Blade
Knights of the WhiteWolf0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
I don't know how I can argue with this. As I said we have different definitions of things, the point doesn't matter when people have such different perspectives.
I just didn't agree with your assessment of Snu's opinion being "Borderline Moronic". Most of the people in my circles have long left the game. I know people with full friends lists that are all 6+ months haven't signed on. I've seen a good dozen completely dead guilds. Hell both of my PvP guilds right now have more players who haven't signed on in over 3 months than players who have signed on in under a week.
Convincing you when you believe the opposite to be true just isn't worth the effort or even I believe possible so why bother? Let people believe what they will....just like the people who didn't believe the game would go FTP within the first year (I was one of those).Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
krim✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzzEdited by krim on September 4, 2015 1:57AM2 -
hammayolettuce✭✭✭✭✭
✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
I would love for you to actually substantiate all of these claims of how much money these studios are making lol. Otherwise, it's easy to claim success if you just keep moving the goalpost. I don't honestly think you know what you're talking about at all, and if you have numbers then you ought to post them. ESO's subscription model didn't even last a fiscal year. That does not sound like success.
Edited by hammayolettuce on September 4, 2015 2:22AM♥ Snü (Magicka DK) ♥ Thnu (Stamplar) ♥ Pizza for Breakfast (Magplar) ♥ Sparklefingers (Magicka Sorc) ♥♥ Bean and Cheese Burrito (Magicka DK) ♥ Snurrito (Stamplar) ♥DARFAL COVANT0 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thoughts of a "bad" PvPer if you think it might be worth your time.Well, I'm not sure who anything done in these updates is meant for, but, I've tried to learn PvP over a long period of time and actually am not doing any better with this update. The whole "You can be awesome if you just try hard enough" mantra is not true for all people in all situations. I am sure many people do appreciate a challenge, and I have nothing against putting one there for players to master. But what the "skilled" players in threads like these and ZOS both need to realize is that there is a segment of players that will always suck at a certain part of the game. You can dumb it down as much as you want, but some players will be stuck and not improve to any considerable degree. Others suck but can get better with time if the game has the right balance of opportunity and risk. The setup for 1.6 was not close to that balance, and whether 1.7 will be is hard to say yet.
The upside of admitting this is that the players upset with the "bads" can stop blaming them for Zeni's decisions. TTK was idiotic in 1.6, but that doesn't make the less skilled players responsible for how ZOS chose to address the problem. This isn't on us. Yes, some people will always whine if they can't be super-good at something right away, but projecting that stereotype onto all newer PvPers/those who aren't new but still aren't any good isn't helpful. It doesn't make those players betters, and after the same blame-game gets repeated over and over it starts sound like privileged whining rather than the constructive criticism it ought to be. Take your frustration out on ZOS if you must. Ask for a campaign that doesn't have kiddy gloves. Send /feedback or post about what a good compromise would be to make fights between skilled players fun again. But scapegoating other players is in no way constructive.
Another other upside is that ZOS can stop trying to make everything overly friendly to everyone. I know, no matter what build I use or how long I've used it, that 95% of the time I will lose in a 1v1. I think I've won maybe 5-6 times since May/June of 2014 when I decided to give PvP a try for the first time. I've won against 2 players exactly once, who seemed to have no earthly idea how to find their skill bar or what was on it. Yes, the game needs to be accessible to everyone and the majority need to have a viable pathway to instant gratification, but for PvP you can get that in any version of ESO with enough numbers (zeeeeeeeerg). I'm glad the TTK was lowered a good bit, but I still get crushed, so, I have no desire or expectation to see it nerfed more. Why bother? Might even need a little buff.
ZOS might want to find a more clever way to let us "bads" have fun in Cyro. I used to get good kills/help out when siege meant something, and could make a reasonable contribution in hand to hand keep fighting. I think some of the new gear sets are meant to give "bads" more options for support roles, and I hope maybe some new siege machines or game mechanics also get put in for us as well so we don't need nerfs to actual face-to-face combat to have fun or be successful/appreciated. Maybe take some things out the of existing AW skill lines and make an Engineer/Siege Specialist class or something. Maybe have some other way of contributing entirely as well that also isn't direct player on player (get creative with your suggestions, people. Maybe make it necessary to take along one of the bad at fighting people to get access to things like purge/barrier for some reason. Hmm, maybe the assault skill line could help buff damage and other face to face stats/mechanics but picking it greys out support? i dunno). Let those who are good at (or willing to stink at) face to face direct combat have their fun, too, with a reasonable TTK that is somewhere between 1.6 and 1.7.
Anyway, thanks for listening to the perspective of a triple pewter certified bad.
Edited by tinythinker on September 4, 2015 2:27AM❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this0 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
I would love for you to actually substantiate all of these claims of how much money these studios are making lol. Otherwise, it's easy to claim success if you just keep moving the goalpost. I don't honestly think you know what you're talking about at all, and if you have numbers then you ought to post them. ESO's subscription model didn't even last a fiscal year. That does not sound like success.
Its no use arguing with him Snu. His entire point is "the game makes money therefore it it good"
What he fails to realize is he has no evidence to actually substantiate his claim, there is actually evidence to the contrary, indeed that the financial situation of ZOS is precarious given their layoffs and constant cash grabs at this point in time.
In every other metric, which he would call meaningless I am sure, such as replay value, fun factor, player retention, subscriber loyalty, brand marketing, accolade, GOTY listings, critical review, timely addressing of issues, customer service review, and other metrics that determine market success, this game failed harder than the XFL.
If it wasnt for its brand name and franchise rights, the game would already be shut down, and everyone here knows it. Those of us that were here on day one can see plainly how empty the game is besides the sudden rush at the start of each patch, then it dies off again for months. This isnt the sign of a healthy game, its the sign of a gaming company banking on the very real problem of MMO addiction and nothing else.Edited by Rylana on September 4, 2015 2:31AM@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin3 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzz
In Korea Tera is a success, over here not so much...its kind of like a lot of Korean MMOs, very successful over there.
I rank SWTOR a success because it pulls in 100 million + every year.
This is a game with on average 500k subscribers (which isn't bad for an MMO) and 2-3 million f2p players.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
I would love for you to actually substantiate all of these claims of how much money these studios are making lol. Otherwise, it's easy to claim success if you just keep moving the goalpost. I don't honestly think you know what you're talking about at all, and if you have numbers then you ought to post them. ESO's subscription model didn't even last a fiscal year. That does not sound like success.
Oh man, do I have a website for you..its amazing..
its called google.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzz
In Korea Tera is a success, over here not so much...its kind of like a lot of Korean MMOs, very successful over there.
I rank SWTOR a success because it pulls in 100 million + every year.
This is a game with on average 500k subscribers (which isn't bad for an MMO) and 2-3 million f2p players.
Except SWTOR had a development cost of anywhere between $200 mil and $500 mil. $100 mil in revenue in a year really isn't that impressive when you're so deep in the hole and you still have massive continuing development, support, and server costs.
ESO had similar development costs and even with their subscription model barely surpassed SWTOR. They may pull into the black, and with the changes they've recently made will ensure that, but that isn't a success, that's existing and making what profit you can from what you have.
It's very similar to all of these failure movies hollywood churns out. They fail to meet expectations and take a huge hit in the box office, yet over the course of a decade finally pull into the black from licensing and DVD sales.
As I said we have different definitions of success and failure, not point in trying to change how someone defines something.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
hammayolettuce✭✭✭✭✭
✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
I would love for you to actually substantiate all of these claims of how much money these studios are making lol. Otherwise, it's easy to claim success if you just keep moving the goalpost. I don't honestly think you know what you're talking about at all, and if you have numbers then you ought to post them. ESO's subscription model didn't even last a fiscal year. That does not sound like success.
Oh man, do I have a website for you..its amazing..
its called google.com
Sorry bro. You don't get to make very specific claims and then tell me to find your information for you, because I didn't decide to take the unsubstantiated claim of some internet dude for gospel. Oh man do I have a concept for you. It's amazing. It's called, "providing proof for the things I claim are true". Hell of a concept, I know.
Until you can reasonably support your specific claims of fact, I'm going to assume you're utterly wrong about them.Edited by hammayolettuce on September 4, 2015 4:42PM♥ Snü (Magicka DK) ♥ Thnu (Stamplar) ♥ Pizza for Breakfast (Magplar) ♥ Sparklefingers (Magicka Sorc) ♥♥ Bean and Cheese Burrito (Magicka DK) ♥ Snurrito (Stamplar) ♥DARFAL COVANT3 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
4 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
R.I.P Battlefield meat.
Tertiary Meat got their name from me calling for more meatbags. Primary Meat. Secondary Meat. Tertiary Meat! Everyone thought the word was amusing enough that it became the guild name when we had to reform.
I used to laugh when you'd be fighting people and they'd just drop to their knees trying to set up ground oil on you. Like really? Sadly that tactic had to work enough for them that they were willing to try it.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
Long live DshotzDecibel GM
GLUB GLUB1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
Long live Dshotz
Miss his drunken ramblings ) =Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzz
In Korea Tera is a success, over here not so much...its kind of like a lot of Korean MMOs, very successful over there.
I rank SWTOR a success because it pulls in 100 million + every year.
This is a game with on average 500k subscribers (which isn't bad for an MMO) and 2-3 million f2p players.
Except SWTOR had a development cost of anywhere between $200 mil and $500 mil. $100 mil in revenue in a year really isn't that impressive when you're so deep in the hole and you still have massive continuing development, support, and server costs.
ESO had similar development costs and even with their subscription model barely surpassed SWTOR. They may pull into the black, and with the changes they've recently made will ensure that, but that isn't a success, that's existing and making what profit you can from what you have.
It's very similar to all of these failure movies hollywood churns out. They fail to meet expectations and take a huge hit in the box office, yet over the course of a decade finally pull into the black from licensing and DVD sales.
As I said we have different definitions of success and failure, not point in trying to change how someone defines something.
lol
SWTOR had no where near $200 Million development cost, let alone $500 Million...Same with ESO
It blows my mind if you think that...
For reference, SWTOR cost around $120 Million to make.
ESO was actually less then that.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzz
In Korea Tera is a success, over here not so much...its kind of like a lot of Korean MMOs, very successful over there.
I rank SWTOR a success because it pulls in 100 million + every year.
This is a game with on average 500k subscribers (which isn't bad for an MMO) and 2-3 million f2p players.
Except SWTOR had a development cost of anywhere between $200 mil and $500 mil. $100 mil in revenue in a year really isn't that impressive when you're so deep in the hole and you still have massive continuing development, support, and server costs.
ESO had similar development costs and even with their subscription model barely surpassed SWTOR. They may pull into the black, and with the changes they've recently made will ensure that, but that isn't a success, that's existing and making what profit you can from what you have.
It's very similar to all of these failure movies hollywood churns out. They fail to meet expectations and take a huge hit in the box office, yet over the course of a decade finally pull into the black from licensing and DVD sales.
As I said we have different definitions of success and failure, not point in trying to change how someone defines something.
lol
SWTOR had no where near $200 Million development cost, let alone $500 Million...Same with ESO
It blows my mind if you think that...
For reference, SWTOR cost around $120 Million to make.
ESO was actually less then that.
That's funny because I can't find a single guestimate that puts it at less than $200 million and many that put it well over that. I don't think you understand just how expensive marketing costs for major titles are either. All those ads you see all over TV and on the internet weren't charity.
Plenty of threads from plenty of analysts out there on your favorite research tool Google.
Don't forget upfront development costs are only part of your expenses, you still have to pay all of the ongoing expenses which aren't cheap plus servicing all the debt of the upfront costs.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
krim✭✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
People don't know or understand that 1.5 was the most balanced patch with more diversity than the game has now..
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Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
People don't know or understand that 1.5 was the most balanced patch with more diversity than the game has now..
Yeah, softcaps made hybrid builds viable.
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Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
People don't know or understand that 1.5 was the most balanced patch with more diversity than the game has now..
Yep. People keep clamoring on about how 1.6 made stam viable. Stam was a powerhouse in 1.5. And more and more people were beginning to switch to stam in 1.5 and make it work.(because they anticipated 1.6)1 -
caeliusstarbreaker✭✭✭✭✭
✭Soft caps, dynamic ulti gen, aoe cap removal
Game would be fine
Also .. Fix lagRhage Lionpride DC Stamina Templar
K-Hole0 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭This thread reminds me of a 2v1 fight a good friend of mine and myself had against a Sap Essence Nightblade back in the last few weeks of 1.5.
Myself and another dragonknight were told to go take Kingscrest Keep Lumbermill while the rest of the group ran down south to begin assaulting Arrius. We clear the guards and run into a very well known AD Sap Essence Nightblade. Nothing we could do could get him below 80% health, and I knew if it kept up he'd win the fight against us both. In TS I'm like "Do you have a meatbag?" My friend "Sure do". We set it up, heal debuff him, take him down and take the resource.
A few minutes later I'm getting tells from the guy, "You do realize that was a 2v1 and you setup siege on me? What kind of player sets up siege in a 2v1?" Me "Look, I was told to take that LM, you were in my way, I used what was available to me to take you down. Instead of being upset about it, look at this way, we HAD to setup siege to take you down, we couldn't otherwise."
Long live Dshotz
Miss his drunken ramblings ) =
Hahah yeah, people can say what they want about him. He was a beast and while he wasnt perfect, I'd still compete with him on my side any day.
Edited by WRX on September 5, 2015 12:19AMDecibel GM
GLUB GLUB1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »hammayolettuce wrote: »This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.
Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.
I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.
This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.
As bad as this patch is..saying this game is failing and has failed is borderline moronic..and should be embarrassing for the person who typed it.
As totally irrelevant as the above quote is, it would be borderline moronic for one to assume a game is successful based on sales without knowing cost to produce, company overhead vis-a-vis income, or considering its failed potential to revitalize a stagnant genre ... not to mention the bevy of pre-release marketing which ended up being false or the hemorrhaging of hardcore players. But only borderline.
Oh it made far more then it cost to make, don't kid yourself mate...Its made that well back plus extra...as for failing to revitalize a stagnant genre? It doesn't have to do that...No game really has to do that to be successful.
I have to stop you on all this "game was a success nonsense". I don't want to see ESO fail. I was one of its biggest fanboys in the first few months. The reality is plain for all to see. I'm a theorycrafter, I do nothing but analyze numbers and draw (successful) conclusions. ESO is the best looking game out there as far as MMOs go. It *had* the most fun combat of any RPG I've played. When their main income strategy shifts after repeatedly saying that the game could never work under that model it is clear that ESO did not only not meet their expectations, but it also needed to be completely overhauled in order to salvage their investment.
Why don't you join your alts to some cyrodiil campaigns, and repair a wall somewhere and see what your rank is. This will let you know just how many players are PvPing. The last time I checked Cyrodiil in North America had 20-30k PvPers total. Double that for Europe and realize that one year ago it was 10 times that.
Xbox and PS4 bought them some breathing room which is why they dropped everything to get that out the door....but the intrinsic flaws are still present in the game and those populations will drop off as well.
Successful MMOs don't have their heads leaving. They aren't letting CS reps go, they're hiring them. Don't fool yourself with this talk of "not failing". 200 million dollars in initial investment doesn't materialize overnight.
Only I can point you to multiple blizzard devs leaving the company, as well as numerous other MMOs that the same thing, the cs rep things is also standard in every single game development cycle, if you know anyone who works in this field they will tell you the same thing (blizzard for example has done it constantly).
As for ESO shifting to the current payment model, that was only a matter of time and doesn't say much, it's where the market is leading most games now a days
If you want to go a few rounds with me on this I will, but you are sadly wrong on this subject and nothing will change that.
Blizzard built an entire building just to house their CS department in the early days of WoW. They didn't have any layoffs that I recall until deep into the Cataclysm launch cycle. WoW is a game in decline right now....yes failing as ESO is as they struggle to hold on as many subscribers as possible.
Perhaps we have different concepts of what failure constitutes. Perhaps you think games like Star Wars TOR were a success.
To me success is an MMO that is growing and expanding. ESO has been a game that is obviously trying to hold onto the ground it has made for as long as possible. It isn't insulting to recognize that any more than it is to recognize the many flaws in this game and the great potential it has/had.
Swtor is a success, it pulls in a stupid amount of money each year.... I don't think you realize how much it sells with its f2p system.
Teras a success too. All games who started as subs and ended up as B2P. These company's were successful at salvaging their games to keep players and earn a profit. Not my definition of a successful game.
Both SWToR and ESO having major titles to help with fan boys flocking to the game. plzzzzz
In Korea Tera is a success, over here not so much...its kind of like a lot of Korean MMOs, very successful over there.
I rank SWTOR a success because it pulls in 100 million + every year.
This is a game with on average 500k subscribers (which isn't bad for an MMO) and 2-3 million f2p players.
Except SWTOR had a development cost of anywhere between $200 mil and $500 mil. $100 mil in revenue in a year really isn't that impressive when you're so deep in the hole and you still have massive continuing development, support, and server costs.
ESO had similar development costs and even with their subscription model barely surpassed SWTOR. They may pull into the black, and with the changes they've recently made will ensure that, but that isn't a success, that's existing and making what profit you can from what you have.
It's very similar to all of these failure movies hollywood churns out. They fail to meet expectations and take a huge hit in the box office, yet over the course of a decade finally pull into the black from licensing and DVD sales.
As I said we have different definitions of success and failure, not point in trying to change how someone defines something.
lol
SWTOR had no where near $200 Million development cost, let alone $500 Million...Same with ESO
It blows my mind if you think that...
For reference, SWTOR cost around $120 Million to make.
ESO was actually less then that.
That's funny because I can't find a single guestimate that puts it at less than $200 million and many that put it well over that. I don't think you understand just how expensive marketing costs for major titles are either. All those ads you see all over TV and on the internet weren't charity.
Plenty of threads from plenty of analysts out there on your favorite research tool Google.
Don't forget upfront development costs are only part of your expenses, you still have to pay all of the ongoing expenses which aren't cheap plus servicing all the debt of the upfront costs.
The $500 million was the cost of purchasing bioware + pandemic + development cost, the $200 million was from a guy called ea louse which turned out to be a hoax and had the head of bioware calling him an idiot for thinking the game cost anywhere near that, they had spent $80 million on the games development 6 month before release and that's from ea analyst, the $120 million I'm quoting is marketing and everything else.
Very few games reach $200 million price tag, because unless your name is rockstar and your game is gta you will not recoup your costs.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Xeniph✭✭✭✭✭To "Bad" players:
1vX is still very much alive and even easier now.
From: The "Skilled" players.Here since Beta.
Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.1
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