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Todays Nerf, Your Feelings?
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Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »
Good one. Dark Deal doesn't return squat for stamina. And Dark Conversion is even worse.1 -
Darkius✭As somebody stated earlier, the problem again originates from Champion points.
Because of this system, resources are infinitely expandable and makes the balancing act extremely hard for ZoS.
My personal impressions from playing this were initially good (about 7 hours so far and a lot of PTS). But the more I got into it, and the more I felt in practice it made the non-skill gap between players even bigger.
The proof is the effect of the different Stam nerfs on stam builds in general. Even with other changes put together, Stam builds (and especially Sorcerers) are getting much less usable builds/utility than their Magicka counterparts.
Magicka DK, best by far from Stam DK (bye bye Stam DK. I didn't play you much but now you're just obsolete)
Magicka Sorc... I'm not even going to go there. Stam sorc a bit better.
Magicka Templar, Stam templar actually doesn't feel bad with full endgame gear + CPs. Anytime before though, and Magicka takes it all the way.
Magicka NB, probably the closest to Stam NB. But still, survivability is night and day.
The main impression I get from this: Champion points are creating huge power differences between players. With the removal of soft caps, the problem is intensified. People who scream " diminishing returns!" Have you ever duelled a 370+ CPer with a fresh VR14 (albeit geared up)? Skill doesn't matter. And this will get worse.
The problem remains the same. NO MATTER HOW MANY BAND AIDS FIXES YOU APPLY.
A solution that uses the existing champion passives is to make the champion system a "skill bar" of slottable passives. Meaning you have a limited amount you could slot, a max for everybody (say 10 passives). BUT you still have vertical progression, because you could spend CPs to IMPROVE the percentages slotted. You could still use the existing system of specialisation in place in specific constellations (For example, with 30 passives spottable, 3 passives in ritual grants you the 30 point one in live, 12 could give you the 120 one, etc, etc...)
This would narrow the gap, but still encourage theory crafting and specialisation (instead of having chars who regen indefinitely after a certain amount of CPs). At the end, you reduce the issue of invincible characters that are resistant to everything. You would solve the time to kill issue, the shield stacking, the perma roll...
ZOS please consider this. You've said the CP seeps its way into everything, and that's what makes it hard to change it.
Think of it this way: you solve the CP properly, you mend a lot of combat-related problem all at once.
This is in my opinion would make the game more replay-value (because less fun-sucking measures) whilst still retaining the long term goal, and the ability to expand using gear like this DLC.
Sometimes a step back can help you jump forward.
I really want this game to succeed. Come on ZOS, you are so close to the epiphany of MMOs."The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."
Sun Tzu5 -
rophez_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I unsubbed, because the way they chose to not gate IC = zerg fest. I hate zergs. Also, I've had a DK as my main since beta and the level my DK plays at now vs. the start of the game is just depressing. Yeah, I know they were OP at the start, but we're basically crippled, bottom tier now.Edited by rophez_ESO on September 1, 2015 3:29PM2
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NDwarf✭✭✭Stuff
That's a good ideal. Will it happen? No. They sell exp potions on the crown store. The need to keep up makes competitive players open their wallets. It's an arms race with no end and the biggest $$$ spender comes out on top.
An entire DLC set around pvp, pvp set around champ points, champ points set around experience points, exp points gained at a faster rate through sub to eso + and paying money for exp potions.
The only solution is not be competitive, play to have fun, don't spend $$$, then move on when the next big thing comes along.
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭rophez_ESO wrote: »I unsubbed, because the way they chose to not gate IC = zerg fest. I hate zergs. Also, I've had a DK as my main since beta and the level my DK plays at now vs. the start of the game is just depressing. Yeah, I know they were OP at the start, but we're basically crippled, bottom tier now.
The everyone has access thing is temporary. Once people get a taste of IC there will be different rules in each campaign. Also, magika Dk are back in full force. The perma blocking, lava whip monstrosity is back even more powerful than before cause now they can use proxy.0 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭As the changes have only just been made I will leave my jugdement until I've played a little.0 -
capnbinky✭✭Also, magika Dk are back in full force. The perma blocking, lava whip monstrosity is back even more powerful than before cause now they can use proxy.
How are they back full force? If you are all light armor, you can't get out of the red in a hot fight now. One dodge-roll OR cc break per customer, and then if you block you're stuck, unable to regen for the next cc break or dodge-roll.
If they'd nerfed ONE of these things, it'd be workable. Just the block regen alone is a major game-changer for all classes and all builds. Throw in the escape nerfing and it's like the entire player base has been nerfed with a sledgehammer.5 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, magika Dk are back in full force. The perma blocking, lava whip monstrosity is back even more powerful than before cause now they can use proxy.
How are they back full force? If you are all light armor, you can't get out of the red in a hot fight now. One dodge-roll OR cc break per customer, and then if you block you're stuck, unable to regen for the next cc break or dodge-roll.
If they'd nerfed ONE of these things, it'd be workable. Just the block regen alone is a major game-changer for all classes and all builds. Throw in the escape nerfing and it's like the entire player base has been nerfed with a sledgehammer.
except with cost reduction in blocking, dodge rolling and break free, this is not that big of a problem. you only need one dodge roll which will not have the nerf kick in. reduced blocking makes perma-blocking nothing. not to mention the only thing going through it is fear. These dk builds were all over the pts. also, many builds like this are running upwards of 24k spell resist and 22k armor resist. while people were all yelling about magika nb and perma-cloaking, others were finding better builds and counters to magika nb. (which this dk set up is the perfect counter outside another nb using peircing mark.) let the dk and nb fighting resume like back in the good ol days.1 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington1 -
CtrlAltDlt✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.
Maybe. But a 100% was too harsh. And the dodge roll nerf was unnecessary.
I started playing this game 2 months ago and was happy with my progress on my NB until yesterday. How I wish there was a race change option so I could go bosmer and maybe get some sustain back..
PC NA - jeazzy
stamblade outnumbered pvp vol 1. youtu.be/h1ONYfpAJJ8
Stamblade outbumbered pvp vol 2. No cheese youtu.be/rN4_aRVMvWw1 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭Funkopotamus wrote: »I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.
Except what they needed to do was DISCOURAGE perma-blocking, not punish everyone for pressing their block key occasionally.5 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭On the stam nerf? HATE IT!! It discourages players from developing a real battle strategy in favor of a bloated tank build. Instead of dodge rolling stick and move tactics (way more impressive imo), players will have the tendancy to bulk up and adopt a stand there and take it battle strategy. Its just as well tho, this game doesn't have the response time required to reach the full potential of this kind of play style. Since the update, I can't even swap weapons in an acceptable timeframe.I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]3 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.
Then they should've nerfed blocking, not stam overall.I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]1 -
SkylarkAU✭✭✭✭I don't get it, my stam DK has never felt better.
It's tanky as hell and despite the heavy armour spec the sustain dps is actually pretty decent because of the extra face time with the enemy.
Adapt.Skylärk // v16 Stamina DK (AvA 23)
Elizabeth Skylark // v16 Magicka Sorc (AvA 29)
Tauriel Skylark // v16 Stamina NB (AvA 12)
Alexander Skylark // v2 Magicka Templar
Terra Australis XI // v2 Magicka DK
Nocturnal | RÀGE
<< PC/NA/AD >>
Youtube0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get it, my stam DK has never felt better.
It's tanky as hell and despite the heavy armour spec the sustain dps is actually pretty decent because of the extra face time with the enemy.
Adapt.
Some people don't know what to do without people telling them what the new builds will look like for this meta. Rather than spend time testing and figuring it out for themselves, they yell on the forums.2 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.
Or they could just nerf the champion system that lets you spec into block so much.
The early days of 1.6 were pretty balanced. The champion system is just bad for the game.2 -
SkylarkAU✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »I don't get it, my stam DK has never felt better.
It's tanky as hell and despite the heavy armour spec the sustain dps is actually pretty decent because of the extra face time with the enemy.
Adapt.
Some people don't know what to do without people telling them what the new builds will look like for this meta. Rather than spend time testing and figuring it out for themselves, they yell on the forums.
Yeah I get it. I think the trick is to get mitigation, health and max heal up nice and high, then pour the rest in to stam/weapon damage while making sure you have all the buffs available between your abilities/pots.
I don't have all of the v15/16 gear yet but I plan to use malubeth, armor master and agility with SB/2H masters weapons. With the right CP setup that's full resistances, 35k hp, 2.2k weapon damage & 24k stam (with enough magicka left to run those DK heals).Skylärk // v16 Stamina DK (AvA 23)
Elizabeth Skylark // v16 Magicka Sorc (AvA 29)
Tauriel Skylark // v16 Stamina NB (AvA 12)
Alexander Skylark // v2 Magicka Templar
Terra Australis XI // v2 Magicka DK
Nocturnal | RÀGE
<< PC/NA/AD >>
Youtube0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭I went to Craglorn a bit to test out differences vs how they were.
My VR11 Templar - Strong as ever, if not a little tougher, Taking out VR 13 mobs with relative ease.
My VR14 DK - Got his A** handed to him on a platter. Took forever just to take out some wasps, forget fighting anything else.
gonna have to rethink this one.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »I don't get it, my stam DK has never felt better.
It's tanky as hell and despite the heavy armour spec the sustain dps is actually pretty decent because of the extra face time with the enemy.
Adapt.
Some people don't know what to do without people telling them what the new builds will look like for this meta. Rather than spend time testing and figuring it out for themselves, they yell on the forums.
Yeah I get it. I think the trick is to get mitigation, health and max heal up nice and high, then pour the rest in to stam/weapon damage while making sure you have all the buffs available between your abilities/pots.
I don't have all of the v15/16 gear yet but I plan to use malubeth, armor master and agility with SB/2H masters weapons. With the right CP setup that's full resistances, 35k hp, 2.2k weapon damage & 24k stam (with enough magicka left to run those DK heals).
That armor master set is crazy effective especially with a medium armor setup running immovable. You get really awesome resist while being able to keep your sustain and weapon damage. My first set will be the v15 shield breaker. Followed by the sheer venom set. I want to sheer venom set way more, but I want to get a new set asap and the shield breaker set is the better set to get at v15.0 -
Blade_07✭✭✭✭Moonshadow66 wrote: »This is certainly depressing. I am VERY seriously considering on leaving this complete fail of a game behind me for good! When something pi$$es you off much more then make you happy then you need to cut your losses and drop it to the black oblivion where it belongs.
I just got my DK stamina tank to VR12 and was finally looking forward to doing some of the VR12+ content but not now. All that time and effort has been literally taken from me from the people that I give my money to. I really need to ask my self, is this crap really worth it? This game is now seriously FUBAR to be honest and it was that way from the start.
Say, did you happen to be in Craglorn today (PC/NA/EP)? I could swear I saw someone typing the exact same things in the zone chat..^^
lol, no because I hate PvP. ^^
“Man can live about forty days without food, about three days without water, about eight minutes without air, but only for one second without hope.”0 -
SkylarkAU✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »I don't get it, my stam DK has never felt better.
It's tanky as hell and despite the heavy armour spec the sustain dps is actually pretty decent because of the extra face time with the enemy.
Adapt.
Some people don't know what to do without people telling them what the new builds will look like for this meta. Rather than spend time testing and figuring it out for themselves, they yell on the forums.
Yeah I get it. I think the trick is to get mitigation, health and max heal up nice and high, then pour the rest in to stam/weapon damage while making sure you have all the buffs available between your abilities/pots.
I don't have all of the v15/16 gear yet but I plan to use malubeth, armor master and agility with SB/2H masters weapons. With the right CP setup that's full resistances, 35k hp, 2.2k weapon damage & 24k stam (with enough magicka left to run those DK heals).
That armor master set is crazy effective especially with a medium armor setup running immovable. You get really awesome resist while being able to keep your sustain and weapon damage. My first set will be the v15 shield breaker. Followed by the sheer venom set. I want to sheer venom set way more, but I want to get a new set asap and the shield breaker set is the better set to get at v15.
I'll be going with heavy and shuffle for the armor master, trading some of that dps/sustain for the extra survivability since it will also be used for tanking PvX/PvE content. 64% mitigation (Resist+Nord+Circle of Protection) + 20% dodge + decent heals = face tanking..
That shield breaker set is going to burst a few bubbles... (boom tish)
Skylärk // v16 Stamina DK (AvA 23)
Elizabeth Skylark // v16 Magicka Sorc (AvA 29)
Tauriel Skylark // v16 Stamina NB (AvA 12)
Alexander Skylark // v2 Magicka Templar
Terra Australis XI // v2 Magicka DK
Nocturnal | RÀGE
<< PC/NA/AD >>
Youtube0 -
capnbinky✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Also, magika Dk are back in full force. The perma blocking, lava whip monstrosity is back even more powerful than before cause now they can use proxy.
How are they back full force? If you are all light armor, you can't get out of the red in a hot fight now. One dodge-roll OR cc break per customer, and then if you block you're stuck, unable to regen for the next cc break or dodge-roll.
If they'd nerfed ONE of these things, it'd be workable. Just the block regen alone is a major game-changer for all classes and all builds. Throw in the escape nerfing and it's like the entire player base has been nerfed with a sledgehammer.
except with cost reduction in blocking, dodge rolling and break free, this is not that big of a problem. you only need one dodge roll which will not have the nerf kick in. reduced blocking makes perma-blocking nothing. not to mention the only thing going through it is fear. These dk builds were all over the pts. also, many builds like this are running upwards of 24k spell resist and 22k armor resist. while people were all yelling about magika nb and perma-cloaking, others were finding better builds and counters to magika nb. (which this dk set up is the perfect counter outside another nb using peircing mark.) let the dk and nb fighting resume like back in the good obowmanz607 wrote: »Also, magika Dk are back in full force. The perma blocking, lava whip monstrosity is back even more powerful than before cause now they can use proxy.
How are they back full force? If you are all light armor, you can't get out of the red in a hot fight now. One dodge-roll OR cc break per customer, and then if you block you're stuck, unable to regen for the next cc break or dodge-roll.
If they'd nerfed ONE of these things, it'd be workable. Just the block regen alone is a major game-changer for all classes and all builds. Throw in the escape nerfing and it's like the entire player base has been nerfed with a sledgehammer.
except with cost reduction in blocking, dodge rolling and break free, this is not that big of a problem. you only need one dodge roll which will not have the nerf kick in. reduced blocking makes perma-blocking nothing. not to mention the only thing going through it is fear. These dk builds were all over the pts. also, many builds like this are running upwards of 24k spell resist and 22k armor resist. while people were all yelling about magika nb and perma-cloaking, others were finding better builds and counters to magika nb. (which this dk set up is the perfect counter outside another nb using peircing mark.) let the dk and nb fighting resume like back in the good ol days.
Some of what you're saying is true for pvp; I love pvp and I am kind of looking forward to dying in new and interesting ways.
What I was talking about is overall, however. The extremely fun-to-play build I've been using involves mostly points into magicka, a few into health with none into stamina. So with good food I've held my stamina pool specifically to allow me to be nimble enough to fight in light armor with lower health at the edge of my abilities. It's demanding and taxing and sometimes really hard, and I love it. But now I can't do this, I will need to create "stand still and fight" tactics that are nothing like so exciting to play. Instead of casting a rune behind an enemy and roll-dodging through him, hitting him from behind and then laughing when he hits the rune, I will have to just key mash, for example. Because if he's not alone I can't afford the stamina cost of the roll-dodge.
I CAN adapt. But the adaptations I can see I'll need to make are much more pedestrian.0 -
Blade_07✭✭✭✭So how do you build a DK Tank that's Magika based? The most important agro generating skill in the game is Puncture which is Stamina based.
It also dose great dmg and weakens the physical resistance by 4960 for 12 sec. to. Also it only cost 1481 stamina. It was the perfect skill for a tank. But under the undaunted skills you can use Inner Fire for a hate tool that is magic based. It only dose a lousy 1388 dmg and cost 3529 magicka. It only has a 15% chance of doing more dmg. Looks to be pretty lame to me but I could be wrong.“Man can live about forty days without food, about three days without water, about eight minutes without air, but only for one second without hope.”0 -
purple-magicb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭My prediction: no one will be happy with the way they integrated the new mats. Elite pvpers/group players will get frustrated with zerg style farmers in "their" zones and the farmers that don't like pvp/group zones will be unhappy bcoz they are forced either to go into pvp or group zones or else be considered 2nd class crafters. This whole idea of forcing players to group won't last b/c ZOS has started out including PVE promising "play as you want". It doesn't matter if they abandon that idea. It is the fundamental idea behind this whole project and is what differentiated it from other MMOs. Speaking for myself, I probably would not have even started playing if the game didn't have this aspect to it. So when others say its an mmo get over it, no its not just any other mmo, otherwise I wouldn't have started playing.I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]2
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EvilEmpire wrote: »Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »I played my dragonknight tank tonight. I'll either not play her until they fix this stamina nerf or try to find a way to salvage her as a mage build since she's VR15 now. As a tank I have never felt so weak and useless as I did tonight...thanks Zenimax for ruining my favorite character. If I block a couple times I run out of stamina, if I don't block when I need to I take too much damage. I'm spending more time just trying to stay alive than I am actually tanking and if I dodge roll out of the red that just puts me in an even worse place with my stamina reserves. I feel like Zenimax has tossed tanks under the bus then to add insult to injury ran us over a few times to make sure we knew how much they dislike tanking in their game.
Zenimax...
Your players are getting fed up with the lack of competence in your lead combat designer...maybe its time to replace him with someone with a clear vision of what ESO combat should be.
That's because they don't even play tanks. I've never seen a single dev or qa video where they even had a tank in their group. Now that I think back, I don't even recall them playing stamina based chars, so I'm sure they're quite happy with all these nerfs. Heaven forbid stam based chars actually stay competitive.
As mentioned above, it's a *** joke that stam users have to manage their resource pool for skills, rolls, blocks, etc whereas a mag based char with their single mag pool not only buff their damage, but also their def.
There was a tank back when vet coh got introduced.... they were a sorc0 -
capnbinky✭✭My feelings? Well, I just got this great game called Banished, and I can create a little village that survives on hunting, fishing and gathering. And brew ale!3
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »I will say this about the stam nerf IT WAS NEEDED!
I cannot count the number of times Stam DK's just stand there and perma block 4lyfe. It was boring!
Even worse if two DK's tried to duel it was honestly ***.
boring for who?
did you ever think that you should, you know, counter those dks that bugged you so much rather than crying for the devs to help?1 -
Anasatsudo✭✭Went with my stamina build NB again, and it's a lot less of "spam aoe", I actually have to manage stamina now. The enemies do hit quite hard, but I'm only in the double digits of CP (20? or so), VR5 in VR1 gear though
0 -
drzycki_ESO✭✭✭I went to Craglorn a bit to test out differences vs how they were.
My VR11 Templar - Strong as ever, if not a little tougher, Taking out VR 13 mobs with relative ease.
My VR14 DK - Got his A** handed to him on a platter. Took forever just to take out some wasps, forget fighting anything else.
gonna have to rethink this one.
Was your DK stamina or magicka?0
