Stam Classes need more sustain.

Dracane · August 2015

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Ezareth · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

sabresandiego_ESO · August 2015

I love the changes to stamina sustain in this patch. Endless stamina and endless roll dodging in 1.6 was beyond silly. Free 15% stam regen and 30% from NB was overpowered and silly too. The patch is great. If you can't sustain your stamina then stop spamming roll dodge when your feet are green, or stop holding block forever. If you still cant sustain, throw in an occasionaly heavy attack, use stam potions, or use stamina regen enchants or gear. If you build correctly you can sustain stamina just fine and still have incredible damage, you just cant roll forever anymore or block forever.

Dracane · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

First point will get fixed for sure
2nd point was about time actually

There are 3 other classes in the game. So only Nightblade has no sustain now ? I don't think we can count this point
Drinks no longer multiplying with champion points also lowers Magicka sustain, so it's probably fair.
Not everyone is a former emperor

And what about the cost reduction for class abilities ? Didn't they implement it ?
If they did, then this should actually be a huge boost.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

Who needs stamina builds when you have Harry Potter builds who can dps, tank, and heal all at once?!!!

So stam builds cant do that?

FMonk · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

Just tested on PTS, blocking does not reset stamina regen ticks anymore.

The free 15% from werewolf was silly, as was 30% for nightblades, and the rest of your points also apply to magicka regen.

Dracane · August 2015

FMonk wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

Just tested on PTS, blocking does not reset stamina regen ticks anymore.

The free 15% from werewolf was silly, as was 30% for nightblades, and the rest of your points also apply to magicka regen.

Oh great, it already got fixed

Everyone has less sustain with this update. Both, Magicka and Stamina.
Magicka also looses the Vampire Magicka regen. Actually none of the mentioned points applies to stamina only.

Miwerton · August 2015

But there is also the problem that most ultimates scales of spell penetration instead of armor penetration, Sure it scales of weapon dam and crit but not armor penetration, leaving most ultimates favoring magicka builds in damage. There is also the fact that most classes have very few stamina morhps, leaving build variety more or less lowered.

Soulac · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

First point will get fixed for sure
2nd point was about time actually
There are 3 other classes in the game. So only Nightblade has no sustain now ? I don't think we can count this point
Drinks no longer multiplying with champion points also lowers Magicka sustain, so it's probably fair.
Not everyone is a former emperor

And what about the cost reduction for class abilities ? Didn't they implement it ?
If they did, then this should actually be a huge boost.

The formula for Magicka Reg is different compared to Stamina Reg.
While the formula for Magicka Reg still has some Passives being multiplicative, the formula for Stamina Reg is quite simple.
FlatReg * NonChampionPassives * ChampionPassives

So let's add everything together:
- Stamina Reg formula change
- WW Reg is basically gone
- for NBs 15% Reg is gone
- blocking no stamina reg
- Dodge stacking penalty
- Emp bonus lost
- drink bonus is added after champion passives got involved, which is a bug tho.
- rally is more expensive now

Main defense as a stamina builds are heal, block and dodge. Two of them are not spammable and one of it isn't enough to cover up average damage income.
Shields didn't got a real nerf, but a new set will counter it.

Only class skill got a 20% cost decrease btw.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

yyyeeeaaa ZOS did kinda go over board with magical builds this patch.

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

As a stamina player, we should have the choice between a sustain build and a damage build. But we don't. The only choice we have is between a heavy armor and a medium armor, and the heavy armor does not work well with a stamina build.

As a magicka player, we have the choice between a sustain build and a damage build: we just equip the right skills in our bar.

This difference is quite annoying.

You can do the same with a stam build too just use vigor rally and sword and board: there you go your sustained stam build in medium armor

Yes, we can use a s&b, as every one else. There is nothing specific to the DK here. But while magicka DK can leverage their s&b build owing to their class skills, stamina DK just can't.

FENGRUSH · August 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

First point will get fixed for sure
2nd point was about time actually
There are 3 other classes in the game. So only Nightblade has no sustain now ? I don't think we can count this point
Drinks no longer multiplying with champion points also lowers Magicka sustain, so it's probably fair.
Not everyone is a former emperor

And what about the cost reduction for class abilities ? Didn't they implement it ?
If they did, then this should actually be a huge boost.

The formula for Magicka Reg is different compared to Stamina Reg.
While the formula for Magicka Reg still has some Passives being multiplicative, the formula for Stamina Reg is quite simple.
FlatReg * NonChampionPassives * ChampionPassives

So let's add everything together:
- Stamina Reg formula change
- WW Reg is basically gone
- for NBs 15% Reg is gone
- blocking no stamina reg
- Dodge stacking penalty
- Emp bonus lost
- drink bonus is added after champion passives got involved, which is a bug tho.
- rally is more expensive now

Main defense as a stamina builds are heal, block and dodge. Two of them are not spammable and one of it isn't enough to cover up average damage income.
Shields didn't got a real nerf, but a new set will counter it.

Only class skill got a 20% cost decrease btw.

Still dont understand why theyre shy to nerf shields when theyre so effective and cheap on live making the strongest build.

Mr_Koh · August 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I love the changes to stamina sustain in this patch. Endless stamina and endless roll dodging in 1.6 was beyond silly. Free 15% stam regen and 30% from NB was overpowered and silly too. The patch is great. If you can't sustain your stamina then stop spamming roll dodge when your feet are green, or stop holding block forever. If you still cant sustain, throw in an occasionaly heavy attack, use stam potions, or use stamina regen enchants or gear. If you build correctly you can sustain stamina just fine and still have incredible damage, you just cant roll forever anymore or block forever.

What I read was "if you feel yourself running out of resources to your magicka counterparts just stop playing defensive and die. It's not like you stood a chance anyways, SHEESH."

The whole point is stamina build sustain does NOT compare to magicka build sustain if magicka builds had the same type of nerf to resources then this thread wouldn't exist, but that's just not the case.

Master_Kas · August 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

Who needs stamina builds when you have Harry Potter builds who can dps, tank, and heal all at once?!!!

Lol. Nuff said !

Master_Kas · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

There is some kind of ninjanerf on how Mana and stam regen adds onto eachother (passives, gear, CP) etc.
On top of the roll/block nerf and increased cost of rally (nearly all stamina builds use this for burst heal, vigor is just a HoT which doesn't keep you alive vs spike damage)

You need to weave in alot of heavy attacks to regain stamina even in 1v1's vs any competent player. This is with a bosmer, with some stam regen pieces and blue stam+mana regen drinks.

On my magicka classes (sorc, magick nb, magick dk) I didn't notice the sustain of magicka being a issue compared to my stam nb and stamplar :P

Edit: check @Soulac s post for what I ment with ninjanerf.

Derra · August 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

First point will get fixed for sure
2nd point was about time actually
There are 3 other classes in the game. So only Nightblade has no sustain now ? I don't think we can count this point
Drinks no longer multiplying with champion points also lowers Magicka sustain, so it's probably fair.
Not everyone is a former emperor

And what about the cost reduction for class abilities ? Didn't they implement it ?
If they did, then this should actually be a huge boost.

The formula for Magicka Reg is different compared to Stamina Reg.
While the formula for Magicka Reg still has some Passives being multiplicative, the formula for Stamina Reg is quite simple.
FlatReg * NonChampionPassives * ChampionPassives

So let's add everything together:
- Stamina Reg formula change
- WW Reg is basically gone
- for NBs 15% Reg is gone
- blocking no stamina reg
- Dodge stacking penalty
- Emp bonus lost
- drink bonus is added after champion passives got involved, which is a bug tho.
- rally is more expensive now

Main defense as a stamina builds are heal, block and dodge. Two of them are not spammable and one of it isn't enough to cover up average damage income.
Shields didn't got a real nerf, but a new set will counter it.

Only class skill got a 20% cost decrease btw.

Still dont understand why theyre shy to nerf shields when theyre so effective and cheap on live making the strongest build.

Because they´ve went the wrong route with nerfing sorcerers. They´ve nerfed mobility once again leaving the class with shields as the only real defense for magica builds.

Imagine the outcry if breathoflife gets the nerfbat for templars.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

candoaocrwb17_ESO wrote: »

S
IMO they should leave it at 1.6 nerf snipe by x%, increase Templar damage by x% and just add the cost multiplayer to dodge roll and streak. DKs perma blocking , just remove some of their resistance so they take a little more damage while blocking.

Amen.

Btw, can someone explain me, why stamina sustain is worse now ? Didn't they decrease the stamina cost of class abilities by 30% or so ? Or is it only because Werewolf no longer gives regen without having it slotted ? I thought, stamina sustain would become even better than before.

Blocking/Bashing an ability resets your stamina tick
Werewolf 15% Loss(for most)
Nightblade Refreshing Shadows 15% loss
Drinks no longer multiply with Champion passive
Emp Passive loss
Stamina calculation was change where werewolf/racial/emp passive were multiplicative they are now additive with the other buffs

First point will get fixed for sure
2nd point was about time actually
There are 3 other classes in the game. So only Nightblade has no sustain now ? I don't think we can count this point
Drinks no longer multiplying with champion points also lowers Magicka sustain, so it's probably fair.
Not everyone is a former emperor

And what about the cost reduction for class abilities ? Didn't they implement it ?
If they did, then this should actually be a huge boost.

The formula for Magicka Reg is different compared to Stamina Reg.
While the formula for Magicka Reg still has some Passives being multiplicative, the formula for Stamina Reg is quite simple.
FlatReg * NonChampionPassives * ChampionPassives

So let's add everything together:
- Stamina Reg formula change
- WW Reg is basically gone
- for NBs 15% Reg is gone
- blocking no stamina reg
- Dodge stacking penalty
- Emp bonus lost
- drink bonus is added after champion passives got involved, which is a bug tho.
- rally is more expensive now

Main defense as a stamina builds are heal, block and dodge. Two of them are not spammable and one of it isn't enough to cover up average damage income.
Shields didn't got a real nerf, but a new set will counter it.

Only class skill got a 20% cost decrease btw.

Still dont understand why theyre shy to nerf shields when theyre so effective and cheap on live making the strongest build.

Imagine that sorc sh*tstorm on the forum if they nerf shields and you know why

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

Who needs stamina builds when you have Harry Potter builds who can dps, tank, and heal all at once?!!!

Can I have an access to a stamina Harry Potter build, please?

Egonieser · August 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But then some stamina builds started equalling and even beating some magicka builds in PvP and in DPS and as a result the last few months have been little but cries for nerf of this or that stamina use or ability..

If stamina is beating magicka in "equal" circumstances then there is a problem and call for a nerf is justified. One build should not be stronger and more versatile than another. It should just be different for different playstyles not directly give someone advantage because they chose the current broken FOTM.

Having choices should not equal one choice having more power over another choice, it should be what it is - a choice, a preference not a way to be stronger than others. Skill, practice, gear and CP's already serve that purpose. But currently there seem to be very limited number of viable builds in PvP. And don't anyone start with this "play how you want bullc***" that is misleading and untrue if you play in the competitive area of the game. Just because you managed to kill some greenies in PvP with your "unique" build does not mean it is viable for anything else higher up the ranks.
This was my wish in the beggining - but after months of PvP and frustrating experimentation i came to a conclusion that FOTM is the only way to beat someone else who is FOTM.

It even got WORSE when stat caps got cancelled, dunno who's bright idea at ZoS was it, but it was yet another of the many, horrendous balance mistakes they have made.

Stat caps should be brough back and the determining factor whether you win or lose should be your individual skill and build choices, not having stacked the most stats and then analyzing which stat combo has the direct advantage over others. Like i said previously, all stats should cap and there should be a ceiling at which point one grinder will not be far and beyond everyone else in power.

I know i will get flamed for this, but honestly i don't really give a rat's ass. I stand by my opinion and nothing will change that.

FENGRUSH · August 2015

Egonieser wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But then some stamina builds started equalling and even beating some magicka builds in PvP and in DPS and as a result the last few months have been little but cries for nerf of this or that stamina use or ability..

If stamina is beating magicka in "equal" circumstances then there is a problem and call for a nerf is justified. One build should not be stronger and more versatile than another. It should just be different for different playstyles not directly give someone advantage because they chose the current broken FOTM.

Having choices should not equal one choice having more power over another choice, it should be what it is - a choice, a preference not a way to be stronger than others. Skill, practice, gear and CP's already serve that purpose. But currently there seem to be very limited number of viable builds in PvP. And don't anyone start with this "play how you want bullc***" that is misleading and untrue if you play in the competitive area of the game. Just because you managed to kill some greenies in PvP with your "unique" build does not mean it is viable for anything else higher up the ranks.
This was my wish in the beggining - but after months of PvP and frustrating experimentation i came to a conclusion that FOTM is the only way to beat someone else who is FOTM.

It even got WORSE when stat caps got cancelled, dunno who's bright idea at ZoS was it, but it was yet another of the many, horrendous balance mistakes they have made.

Stat caps should be brough back and the determining factor whether you win or lose should be your individual skill and build choices, not having stacked the most stats and then analyzing which stat combo has the direct advantage over others. Like i said previously, all stats should cap and there should be a ceiling at which point one grinder will not be far and beyond everyone else in power.

I know i will get flamed for this, but honestly i don't really give a rat's ass. I stand by my opinion and nothing will change that.

You lack discipline