The main issue was that it was really easy to reach the cap and at the end we all had similar stats. ZoS should reduce the basic stats, increase the points that we get from attributes and give us more enchants slots.

I was also gonna suggest making the softcaps scale off how high your stat currently was. Starting the softcap at 10% and increasing by 5% for each benchmark you reach the higher you go, but it really just sounds hard to implement correctly and somewhat complex for players to relate to, but some kind of diminishing return system for pushing a stat too high should really be implemented. It would usher people to broaden their build and even hybrid builds would become more viable again.

When Billy pushes the + button on his champ point page, he NEEDS to see a number go up on his character sheet.

Wasn't that why they removed soft caps?

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

What they needed was a smooth curve that made people consider at what point they would stop investing in a stat and start investing elsewhere.

The sudden 50% reduction was a huge "ok stop putting points in here now!" that lead to everyone having the same or very similar build. Also they were too low, and people would hit caps with just passives + attribute points.

That already exists if you actually take time to mathematically break down stat values of the game. Things like crit chance, penetration, mitigation, regen, reduction, all have their own diminishing returns in terms of efficiency. At certain points of having enough of these stats, they begin losing out on their effectiveness and other stats take priority. The same thing applies to weapon/spell damage and resources pools, but for different reasons. It's just all hidden behind convoluted equations and information that Zenimax doesn't give freely to the players. You have to spend a painstakingly large amount of time in the game to figure these things out.

You are right, it is there. But not because of some steady rules they have put in, but rather because they seem to do strange convoluted math that is inconsistent and makes you wonder if they even realize what they are doing sometimes.

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

Draxys wrote: »

They should put 1.5 back on the pts and watch people flood to it instead of live.

This may be true for a lot of people, but frankly as a templar player that wants to be a dps I would never consider it. Everyone talk about how great 1.5 was, but if you where a templar being a dps was not a viable option.

Bashev wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

I back you up. All @Dracane posts are Sors biased. But not everyone plays sors where one stat gives survivability and damage at the same time.

Aha. I didn't say a single word about Sorcerers. Just that I find caps stupid. It's impossible to give opinions on this forum without trolls showing up and accusing me of ridiculous things. Are you so bored ?
But yea, live your illusion guys.

And everyone gets survivability and damage by putting everything into 1 stat. What are you even talking about.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

I back you up. All @Dracane posts are Sors biased. But not everyone plays sors where one stat gives survivability and damage at the same time.

Aha. I didn't say a single word about Sorcerers. Just that I find caps stupid. It's impossible to give opinions on this forum without trolls showing up and accusing me of ridiculous things. Are you so bored ?
But yea, live your illusion guys.

And everyone gets survivability and damage by putting everything into 1 stat. What are you even talking about.

Thats not true look if I have 20 k life and my heals already heal for 15-17k what do I gain from more magicka and spellpower? More dps bht no surviveability because I cant heal more life than I have. Thats different for shields because shields add onto your max life so yes I can see why they said you posted this because you are a sorc

15-17k crits. Your normal heals still profit from it and 17k crit is still 3k less than 20k, right ?
Everyone who puts everything into Magicka gets stronger Healing Wards and Annulment shields> more survivability.
Sorcerers get stronger damage shields and damage from more Magicka BUT so does any other Magicka class. Sorcerer must use 2 non-class shields to survive. So please do the same or don't complain about your surviviability. You have 3 shields, resulting in a strong value and you have your burst heals on top.

I don't see how you can even complain.
And Stamina specs get more dodge rolls, blocks, Vigor and such things if they increase weapon damage and Stamina.

Btw, we're in 1.7 now. Where healing done is reduced by a lot in pvp. So you benefit even more from making your heals as strong as possible.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

I back you up. All @Dracane posts are Sors biased. But not everyone plays sors where one stat gives survivability and damage at the same time.

Aha. I didn't say a single word about Sorcerers. Just that I find caps stupid. It's impossible to give opinions on this forum without trolls showing up and accusing me of ridiculous things. Are you so bored ?
But yea, live your illusion guys.

And everyone gets survivability and damage by putting everything into 1 stat. What are you even talking about.

Thats not true look if I have 20 k life and my heals already heal for 15-17k what do I gain from more magicka and spellpower? More dps bht no surviveability because I cant heal more life than I have. Thats different for shields because shields add onto your max life so yes I can see why they said you posted this because you are a sorc

15-17k crits. Your normal heals still profit from it and 17k crit is still 3k less than 20k, right ?
Everyone who puts everything into Magicka gets stronger Healing Wards and Annulment shields> more survivability.
Sorcerers get stronger damage shields and damage from more Magicka BUT so does any other Magicka class. Sorcerer must use 2 non-class shields to survive. So please do the same or don't complain about your surviviability. You have 3 shields, resulting in a strong value and you have your burst heals on top.

I don't see how you can even complain.
And Stamina specs get more dodge rolls, blocks, Vigor and such things if they increase weapon damage and Stamina.

If I m low life my heals crit almost evrytime so thats no problem if it does not crit once. Well guess when I have significantly below 3 k life that I would notice missing health when I heal. You are right its that time im dead
Yea thats 2 abilities not related to classes that increse surviveability
Wait you call blazing shield a shield? Thats just ridiculous. I wont even bother to waste 2 skillpoints on it next respec.
Yes I have my heals. If you compare them to your shield they can heal my life to max again but do not negate: crits, on hit effects, dots, cant be reduced by debuffs, have no intelligent heal system that prevents you from shielding yourself and dont add onto my max value. Soooo gues who is better off with stacking max magicka. Sorcs or all other classes?

You're better off with scaling Magicka, equal at least
Stop pretending like Sun Shield has only 10 strenght. It's still quite a few k strong. Yes, your total shield strenght will not be the same value as Sorcerers could reach. But it doesn't have to be.
Your shields might be some k weaker, but you have your instant heals.

As I said, Sorcerers couldn't survive what they survive without Harness Magicka and Healing Ward. You don't want to use them ? Alright, but then don't think you can argue with me. If you refuse to use what's keeping you alive, I don't know what to say.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

I back you up. All @Dracane posts are Sors biased. But not everyone plays sors where one stat gives survivability and damage at the same time.

Aha. I didn't say a single word about Sorcerers. Just that I find caps stupid. It's impossible to give opinions on this forum without trolls showing up and accusing me of ridiculous things. Are you so bored ?
But yea, live your illusion guys.

And everyone gets survivability and damage by putting everything into 1 stat. What are you even talking about.

Thats not true look if I have 20 k life and my heals already heal for 15-17k what do I gain from more magicka and spellpower? More dps bht no surviveability because I cant heal more life than I have. Thats different for shields because shields add onto your max life so yes I can see why they said you posted this because you are a sorc

15-17k crits. Your normal heals still profit from it and 17k crit is still 3k less than 20k, right ?
Everyone who puts everything into Magicka gets stronger Healing Wards and Annulment shields> more survivability.
Sorcerers get stronger damage shields and damage from more Magicka BUT so does any other Magicka class. Sorcerer must use 2 non-class shields to survive. So please do the same or don't complain about your surviviability. You have 3 shields, resulting in a strong value and you have your burst heals on top.

I don't see how you can even complain.
And Stamina specs get more dodge rolls, blocks, Vigor and such things if they increase weapon damage and Stamina.

If I m low life my heals crit almost evrytime so thats no problem if it does not crit once. Well guess when I have significantly below 3 k life that I would notice missing health when I heal. You are right its that time im dead
Yea thats 2 abilities not related to classes that increse surviveability
Wait you call blazing shield a shield? Thats just ridiculous. I wont even bother to waste 2 skillpoints on it next respec.
Yes I have my heals. If you compare them to your shield they can heal my life to max again but do not negate: crits, on hit effects, dots, cant be reduced by debuffs, have no intelligent heal system that prevents you from shielding yourself and dont add onto my max value. Soooo gues who is better off with stacking max magicka. Sorcs or all other classes?

You're better off with scaling Magicka, equal at least
Stop pretending like Sun Shield has only 10 strenght. It's still quite a few k strong. Yes, your total shield strenght will not be the same value as Sorcerers could reach. But it doesn't have to be.
Your shields might be some k weaker, but you have your instant heals.

As I said, Sorcerers couldn't survive what they survive without Harness Magicka and Healing Ward. You don't want to use them ? Alright, but then don't think you can argue with me. If you refuse to use what's keeping you alive, I don't know what to say.

It is only strong if you have a lot life and there we are. At this point we (Templars and Dks) have to decide: life for defense and surviveability for stronger shields or max magicka for more dps and heals. Dks rely on life even more than templars because their class heal scales of their life too. We cant get both string class shields and strong non class shields by stacking 1 ressource that is not possible and please stop pretending like it was

Omg of course you can stay with 20k life. That's alright
You don't need to reach the same values as Sorcerers. You have other tools to compensate for a few k shield. It's not as hard as you think.

Maybe we should talk about it.

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Caps basically exist somehow as @danno8 pointed out and I agree on that.
For example at some point, you'll have enough Magicka regeneration to barely run out of ressources. You can invest more, but it's not really clever because you would be better off investing somewhere else.

I really hated caps, it added stupid limitations to the game. 1.6 offers more freedom.
Yes, people tend to put everything into one things. Because that's how our brain is working

Dracane, you always post the most sorcerror biased posts Ive ever seen, and you also build for purely max magicka so once again it makes sense why you would write this.

I back you up. All @Dracane posts are Sors biased. But not everyone plays sors where one stat gives survivability and damage at the same time.

Aha. I didn't say a single word about Sorcerers. Just that I find caps stupid. It's impossible to give opinions on this forum without trolls showing up and accusing me of ridiculous things. Are you so bored ?
But yea, live your illusion guys.

And everyone gets survivability and damage by putting everything into 1 stat. What are you even talking about.

Thats not true look if I have 20 k life and my heals already heal for 15-17k what do I gain from more magicka and spellpower? More dps bht no surviveability because I cant heal more life than I have. Thats different for shields because shields add onto your max life so yes I can see why they said you posted this because you are a sorc

15-17k crits. Your normal heals still profit from it and 17k crit is still 3k less than 20k, right ?
Everyone who puts everything into Magicka gets stronger Healing Wards and Annulment shields> more survivability.
Sorcerers get stronger damage shields and damage from more Magicka BUT so does any other Magicka class. Sorcerer must use 2 non-class shields to survive. So please do the same or don't complain about your surviviability. You have 3 shields, resulting in a strong value and you have your burst heals on top.

I don't see how you can even complain.
And Stamina specs get more dodge rolls, blocks, Vigor and such things if they increase weapon damage and Stamina.

If I m low life my heals crit almost evrytime so thats no problem if it does not crit once. Well guess when I have significantly below 3 k life that I would notice missing health when I heal. You are right its that time im dead
Yea thats 2 abilities not related to classes that increse surviveability
Wait you call blazing shield a shield? Thats just ridiculous. I wont even bother to waste 2 skillpoints on it next respec.
Yes I have my heals. If you compare them to your shield they can heal my life to max again but do not negate: crits, on hit effects, dots, cant be reduced by debuffs, have no intelligent heal system that prevents you from shielding yourself and dont add onto my max value. Soooo gues who is better off with stacking max magicka. Sorcs or all other classes?

You're better off with scaling Magicka, equal at least
Stop pretending like Sun Shield has only 10 strenght. It's still quite a few k strong. Yes, your total shield strenght will not be the same value as Sorcerers could reach. But it doesn't have to be.
Your shields might be some k weaker, but you have your instant heals.

As I said, Sorcerers couldn't survive what they survive without Harness Magicka and Healing Ward. You don't want to use them ? Alright, but then don't think you can argue with me. If you refuse to use what's keeping you alive, I don't know what to say.

It is only strong if you have a lot life and there we are. At this point we (Templars and Dks) have to decide: life for defense and surviveability for stronger shields or max magicka for more dps and heals. Dks rely on life even more than templars because their class heal scales of their life too. We cant get both string class shields and strong non class shields by stacking 1 ressource that is not possible and please stop pretending like it was

Omg of course you can stay with 20k life. That's alright
You don't need to reach the same values as Sorcerers. You have other tools to compensate for a few k shield. It's not as hard as you think.

Maybe we should talk about it.

I dont want to reach the same values because I have my heals and a sorc doesnt but that doesnt change the fact that blazing shield is not viable with the amount of life a dps build has.

Blazing shield alone is not enough for a build that aims to rely on damage shields. Hardened Ward is better as a defense, but also barely enough on its own. But Sun shield still offers a shield value, that you shouldn't ignore. Healing Ward+Harness Magicka+Sun shield still results in a huge shield.

You could almost close the gap by using Dampen Magicka instead of Harness Magicka. Dampen Magicka has the same shield value as Hardened Ward, I believe it is a bit stronger even when I tested it 3 days ago. But most Sorcerers don't have enough regen to replace Harness Magicka with Dampen Magicka.

Basically, the must needed balanced between magicka and stamina is now here and was not in 1.5 and before BUT can we please watch at the 2 basic mecanics in any MMO.

1. cooldown based game. This allow to balance skills easily. You just can't spam THE "one-shot oriented skill" and need to use a big variety of skills to go
2. ressources management based game. A cap (soft and hard) is needed because if you can have almost "infinite" ressource, you just have to spam your "one-shot oriented skill" (RD, concealed weapon etc)

With the 1.6+ meta you can have "infinite" ressources, so anyone just go for the biggest possible dps skill. It gives poor variety of builds and rotations.

Another issue is that ressources give DPS. It should not. It should goes like this :
. ressources give you the pool to spam your skills (wich should be soft caped)
. regen give you the time between 2 completes empty pool (wich should be soft caped)
. spell/weapon damage is for the dps increase, plus the pen (wich should be soft caped)
. armor/spell resist is for damage mitigation (wich should be soft caped)
. Crit gives % chances to do more dps (wich should be soft caped)

CP buffs shall be soft caped too, lets say at +20% buff max per item.

The cap problem with 1.5 system was that the caps where way too low, just raise them a bit so that hybrid and specialists builds can work together and can be as competitive.

this system can give a lot more variety of builds because more or less, anyone can Play As You Want and be competitive. Then ZOS should just tweak numbers and based cost of each skill to balance the game.

Example : lets say a Crystal fragment gives 1000 damage, and cost 100 magicka. If you have a bigger magicka pool + regen, you can spam it more. Another player who invest more in a hybrid build can deal the same amont of damage with Crystal fragment, but can't spam it a lot while he can use, let's say WB in is rotation with a good result too. Combinasion are almost endless and fair like this.

I was thinking the same thing, thuogh, softcaps should also be a little higher than previously.

Balance is getting pretty uncontrollable right now. This could still let "specialists" build exists, just not so over the top.

Im all for it.

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

My suggestion for this would be:
First, add a softcap (Though a bit higher than the previous one).
Second, after the softcap your stat gain will diminish by 10% for every 10% you increase above the soft cap.

Lets say the softcap is 3K.
0-3000 = 100% stats.
3000-3300 = 90% gain of added stats
3300-3600 = 80% gain of added stats
3600-3900 = 70% gain of added stats
3900-4200 = 60% gain of added stats
4200-4500 = 50% gain of added stats
4500-4800 = 40% gain of added stats
4800-5100 = 30% gain of added stats
5100-5400 = 20% gain of added stats
5400-5700 = 10% gain of added stats
5700 = hardcap.

The more you push it past the softcap, the harder it becomes to increase the stats
With just a 10% stat reduction when you barely pass the softcap up-until a 90% star reduction if you keep pushing it to the hardcap.

That's a good example. But if it happens we will need information about our real stat and how it is transformed to the soft caped stat. And this was one of the biggest problem in the system. Because when you are soft capped you increase some stat but you cannot see it.