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STOP TRYING TO MAKE US USE FULLY CHARGED HEAVY ATTACKS IN PVP
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RoamingRiverElk✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »I don't get it. What is wrong with making heavy attacks a legitimate option? Just don't make it OP.
Because aside from charging a heavy bow or flame staff attack while having kited your enemies behind some huge rock and waiting for the first of them to come in your line of sight, heavy attacks are a seriously dangerous thing to do while playing outnumbered. In other words, these fully charged attack skills/sets seem to mostly favor play where you are in fact outnumbering the enemy. Numbers, numbers, numbers, it's increasingly all about which side has the most players.Edited by RoamingRiverElk on August 28, 2015 5:00AMDalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar2 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jnorris91ub17_ESO wrote: »IT'S BORING AND SLOWS DOWN FIGHTS
WHICH IS --> BAD <--
I don't care what you think or who told you otherwise in your design team. These heavy attack-reliant effects are not good for your PvP environment, and I hardly expect people to use them in PvE since they cause dps to drop sharply.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
Because this is how the devs envisioned PvP and it is the only way it will support 200+ players in the same area at once
Notice, in all those clips with the massive amount of "players"(could be AI bots for all we know) notice how there is no blobbing up on crown and barrier/purge spam?
Yup, that's what I was trying to demonstrate. It's the most rudimentary combat ever. Just heavy attacks from everyone. I think the most skillful play in that entire video was the DK Dragon Leaping someone off the tower at Alessia Bridge. Considering it's 2 years old I'd call that prophetic.
This may also be the core reason behind the lag. I can only imagine how ZOS playtests this game on their end. They intended their combat to be as demonstrated in that video. Simplistic, much like the lag free days when ESO first came out. Then organized groups started discovering all the nifty tactics with blobbing, purge, etc...
The game was designed to handle 100s of players on screen... fighting as demonstrated in the video... And ZOS cannot figure out what is causing all the lag? They are so out of touch. They designed the game one way, while the player-base naturally took it another way, and ZOS refuses to acknowledge it, refuses to adapt to the direction the meta goes. They just make blind knee-jerk reaction balance changes.5 -
SC0TY999✭✭✭✭jnorris91ub17_ESO wrote: »IT'S BORING AND SLOWS DOWN FIGHTS
WHICH IS --> BAD <--
I don't care what you think or who told you otherwise in your design team. These heavy attack-reliant effects are not good for your PvP environment, and I hardly expect people to use them in PvE since they cause dps to drop sharply.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
Because this is how the devs envisioned PvP and it is the only way it will support 200+ players in the same area at once
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5egjUf1iA
The PvP you're seeing on the video clip is from early access / beta before the nerfs and buffs which effectively favored zerg balling. Introducing the aoe cap was their biggest mistake they made imo, from that moment on; the stack as tightly as you can and spam every aoe effect the game has to offer mentality appeared.
PvP was so much better at beta / early access imo.Edited by SC0TY999 on August 28, 2015 6:23AM4 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't know about this. i use Weighted on my Resto staff and i do notice a difference..... thought honestly, not much.Invictus1 -
Francescolg✭✭✭✭Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »I agree for the most part in combat.... Except when your target is off balance and stun (like right after you bash interupt them) Then a heavy attack does double damage and knocks the target down which gives you time for another free attack. i am very suprised alot people dont take the time to do a heavy attack in this situation
The problem is vice versa. Because if you heavy attack, you can also be interrupted, and guess what: there are more and more sorcerer's and NBs waiting in the back, since the catastrophic 1.6.
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kkampaseb17_ESO✭✭✭Weighted trait reduces the GCD by a certain percentage and it is very valuable trait. If your skill cycle is a very fast animation canceled skill + light attack + GCD you will see a difference. If you incorporate in the equation a 1.5-2s charging heavy attack....the difference you will see will be minimal.0
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Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have always played Heavy Attack builds. They are different and awesome because you still have to animation cancel. A Heavy attack counts as fully charged after like 3/4 of the animation and you can do some amazing animation cancelling with that. Especially as a DK with Molten Weapons.Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is time that they stop discerning between light attacks, "half charged heavy attacks" a.k.a. medium attacks and heavy attacks for proc mechanics. That's all.
To put it very bluntly: There is a difference between "interesting mechanics" and "gimmicky trash mechanics", which seems to have escaped in some design steps...Edited by Leandor on August 28, 2015 8:14AM0 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭jnorris91ub17_ESO wrote: »IT'S BORING AND SLOWS DOWN FIGHTS
WHICH IS --> BAD <--
I don't care what you think or who told you otherwise in your design team. These heavy attack-reliant effects are not good for your PvP environment, and I hardly expect people to use them in PvE since they cause dps to drop sharply.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
Because this is how the devs envisioned PvP and it is the only way it will support 200+ players in the same area at oncehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5egjUf1iA
This is also the direction I hoped for the game would go
But it became skill spamming
because of the chosen conceptual construction of the game
and also the unlimited resources for offensive skills
IF you want more classic close combat with variation, then you need variation in combat moves.
For example: Bashing somebody who blocks, directly followed by stabbing, is the classic combat counter to blocking.
The combi's with heavy attacks are great, but I would prefer another set of combi's to make this style of fighting attractive.
More based on countering moves in combat than primitive nerfs (like no stam recovery during blocking). More based on variation in combat moves, than primitive benefits for heavy attacks by regaining Mag or Stam or proccing certain set bonussses.
ZOS did not add much of this variation and the little bit that was there, for example weapon attack speed variation, was nerfed away in the several abilities that buffed it.
Variation and many possibilities to differentiate as a player WERE ample available in the many skills.
But also there ZOS is nerfing the richdom of variation of skills, also by nerfing abilities that gave percentual returns and change to fixed values, also by the strategy visible now with armor sets.
So... nothing is lost... we have a great game !!!
But I think, dear ZOS, it would be prudent to stop nerfing so much together in big waves....
and take some time to reconsider some basic conceptual choices...
and please stop with seemingly "sudden ad hoc" decisions all the time.
Meanwhile you can make content for PVE and remove exploits for PVP.
"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU1 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So to begin with, the Devs allow animation cancelling to get so bad with macros etc. by not introducing global cooldowns equal to the cast time of each ability.
Then they try to crowbar fully charged heavy attack play into a PvP flavoured expansion where, because of animation cancelling and CP resource management issues, unduly slow and impotent fully charged heavy attacks are suicidally useless.
Go figure...
The only way anyone with even 5 minutes PvP experience (or Trail experience) is going to use fully charged (wait for it....waaaiiit for it...) heavy attacks is to at least double the bonuses on offer and halve the cast time of heavy attacks. It's already so risky using them (you ain't blocking and heavy attacking now are you...) there has to be a bigger payoff and a shorter window of vulnerability.
Otherwise all sets with these bonuses are dross, frankly.2 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »The only way anyone with even 5 minutes PvP experience (or Trial experience) is going to use fully charged (wait for it....waaaiiit for it...) heavy attacks is to at least double the bonuses on offer and halve the cast time of heavy attacks. It's already so risky using them (you ain't blocking and heavy attacking now are you...) there has to be a bigger payoff and a shorter window of vulnerability.
Not entirely true. Atleast in PvE Heavy Attacks can be awesome.
The second and the third thing in this Parse (Serpent HM) are from the Dualwield Heavy Attack. Yes, I charge fully.
Edited by Xantaria on August 28, 2015 8:49AMXantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Xantaria were that always fully charged heavies? The game doesn't differentiate between fully charged and "charged for a blink of an eye more than light attack clipped heavy attacks", so I thought damage reporting addons can't differentiate as well. Never mind, just saw your edit.Edited by Leandor on August 28, 2015 8:45AM0 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I charge them fully and cancel the last part of the animation with Flying Blade. But they definitely count as completely charged Heavy Attacks because they procc all sets that require fully charged ones.Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In 1.6 DKs complained about the prep time of Molten Armaments in PvP.They listened to our feedback.....
Months later on the 1.7 PTS....Molten Armaments: This ability now only grants its bonus to fully-charged heavy attacks, and now displays a fire-impact graphical effect when you hit a target at less than 50% health with a fully-charged heavy attack.
People don't use heavy attacks because they are bad. If you want people to use them you need to make them better. They need to look better when followed up with a heavy attack and they need to provide consistent dps rather than dps loss and burst gain. I would also make weighted a competitive options.
This would all make it better but it would still be incredibly boring. Animation canceling is really what holds the combat together in this game and keeps it interesting. I wouldn't get people off it unless you came up with something else to replace it.Edited by Armitas on August 28, 2015 10:43AMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Xantaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whatever you say man, lol. Go ahead and buff my builds then ... I'll take it :')Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
Hardcore Progress PvE Player - Livestream - Youtube
World First Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
World First Tick-Tock Tormentor
Proud Member of the Council of Exploiters.0 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For real, there is way too much pointless focus on light and heavy attacks. They're just crutches because they don't have better mechanics.2013
rip decibel0 -
ColtPython✭✭✭Fully charged attacks has only ever worked with DW in PVE DPS. With any class you fully charge attacks along with flurry. Fully charged attacks are also good for tanks as the one hand and shield attack seems to charge fast and resources are sometimes more scarce. Finally, fully charged fire staff attacks are extremely powerful in PVP and can critical for 20k or even 30k on a vamp.
Outside of these popular use I pretty much agree with the OP. There would have to be a larger effect on the DPS for me to use a heavy attack. There maybe a few PVP combos that we could work out, but I highly doubt I would wear any gear that grants a bonus to only one skill.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually I do use them regularly - on my magicka chars on healing duty, with the resto staff equipped.0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭
Animation cancelling is total crap, I don't understand what's the design idea behind it.Animation canceling is really what holds the combat together in this game and keeps it interesting.EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
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When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
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... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »So basicly your complaining that ZOS is trying to enforce players to actually use there light and heavy attacks instead of what has been going on since beta with skill spamming.... Ok but what about players like me who actually enjoy spam free fights? Players who actually like the slowed down PvP combat? Or is it you only care about your play style and what you get instead of whats best for the community.
When you weigh the benefits of skill spam along with animation canceling vs a heavy attack, I will chose to use my skills over heavy any day.
And that is perfectly accurate and valid.
Who the hell in their right mind would use Heavy over skills except as a last resort ?
@OP
The problem is animation cancelling + skill cost.
Traditionally there was a fixed time to execute a skill and it was costed appropriately.
This meant cost/dps was regulated and controlled and should have been equal across the board to stop any skills becoming redundant.
Currently this does not happen with skills that are animation cancelled.
You can double your DPS...half your TTK ...but pay exactly the same resource cost
That's the problem.
Do you think anyone would be animation cancelling the longest hardest hitting skills if the cost was matched to DPS ?
This cost/dps relationship has been destroyed making animation cancelling specific skills the only option to win a fight with (inevitably) the lowest TTK.
Now I know many of you don't want to pay the "risk sv reward" game of over committed attacks.
You want to max out your damage and reduce your TTK without any risk and at no cost penalty either.
This isn't balance. This is a pure power grab that needs fixing and has been in the game far too long.
IMO anyway.
Either;
1. All skills have exectution times and damage that give appropriate cost/dps/hit (fast or slow attacks matters not)
2. Cancelled skills receive a penalty resource cost, for the increased DPS to create an appropriate cost/dps/hit (unworkable to my knowledge as it has to be retrospective)Edited by Rune_Relic on August 28, 2015 12:43PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, it is kind of negligible in the context you brought things up, since the procs from fully charged heavies are mostly of little interest for healers in a "ah, faugh, I need more magicka" situation...ColtPython wrote: »@leandor damn it! Can't believe I missed that one. Good catch0 -
ColtPython✭✭✭Yes I know... Total screw up... It's 5am... I'm off my regular schedule... I have the I laws dogs over here getting up at 4am... I didn't get my proper ESO fix last night due to server outage... Excuses excuses...
I'm going to go and take my life now in the most heinous minor possible.1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Teargrants wrote: »
Because none of the changes actually make heavy atks a fully "legitimate option", as they mostly require FULLY CHARGED heavy atks. All that means is making yourself vulnerable to interrupts, and losing a lot of sustained DPS.DaveMoeDee wrote: »I don't get it. What is wrong with making heavy attacks a legitimate option? Just don't make it OP.
Fully charged heavy atks are the most telegraphed action in the game, no decent player is going to leave you unpunished for trying it, or not take appropriate defensive actions while you charge it.
And that's a problem with the cancelled skill giving you an unfair advantage.
Making cancelled skills and skills in general lack of telegraph and execution time the problem.
Not the heavy attack.
From my viewpoint at least.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sensesfail13 wrote: »jnorris91ub17_ESO wrote: »IT'S BORING AND SLOWS DOWN FIGHTS
WHICH IS --> BAD <--
I don't care what you think or who told you otherwise in your design team. These heavy attack-reliant effects are not good for your PvP environment, and I hardly expect people to use them in PvE since they cause dps to drop sharply.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
Because this is how the devs envisioned PvP and it is the only way it will support 200+ players in the same area at oncehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5egjUf1iA
So they envisioned a bunch of idiots smashing each other with clubs for an hour and making no progress... sounds legit.
Because they invisioned a TTK of 1 second.... also legit ?Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Sensesfail13✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Stop using all caps thread titles as if London were on fire ?
But it is on fire....Wisherr, Dragonknight, Haderus, NA Server.
Wisher of Naught, Nightblade, Haderus, NA Server.
Guild officer: Abandoned Legion0
