reklaw67 wrote: »

At this point I know there are many many players well over that 300 #. If no changes were made to the system down the road it would be common for most of us to be above 300 points. Where people could have the 25% dmg and all the other goodies as well. That would not be insignificant. It's that way now for new players against some people. If that was the norm you would drastically reduce potential new customers imo.

The counter-intuitive thing about that kind of a build is, you're actually drastically limiting your build options and gimping yourself in the process. For example, a staff wielding sorc who wants to raise their magical damage output needs to take Thaumaturge. The 30 point bonus for that is the weapon crit up star, which actually does nothing for them. They could instead raise their elemental damage, which would give them spell crit, but it wouldn't actually increase their own class abilities.

Your early points in a star are worth far more than the later ones, because of how the system calculates.

And, on top of this we do have people like Deltia advising people to pour all their points into specific stars, which, I mean that's fine, that's their choice, but understand that you're making a more focused, and ultimately less adaptable character by doing that.

Really, the best advice with the Champion system is, don't worry about it. It does not affect PvP that much. I know, it's the flavor of the month to complain about, but it doesn't really do what people seem to think.

A V14 in full gold 14 gear with 300 cp spent will actually be less powerful than a V16 in full gold V16 gear. Just on the raw stats. I know that flies in the face of what some people are saying. Because, "well it's not +25% weapon damage," but, those levels encompass a lot more.

And, at a rough estimate (which I can't actually check at the moment) to double the effectiveness of a CR300's points, you'd actually need to be somewhere in the range of CR1290.

Now, if you ask me, "should campaigns be banded and matched based on CP?" Yeah... though ironically it has nothing to do with their CP per say, and everything to do with, that is a tangible indicator of how much time someone has invested at vet since the system was implemented. It's not a perfect indicator of how competent they are at the game, but it isn't an irrelevant indicator. Actual spent CP? Doesn't really matter that much in comparison.

EDIT: Also "All the other goodies" and you're talking about a CR3600. Those don't exist, and probably won't exist anytime in the next couple years.

Is CP ruining PvP? The better question is... Is PvP ruining PvP?

@reklaw67 I somehow forgot to respond to the rest of this post last night. Sorry, that's on me.

reklaw67 wrote: »

I like the idea of CP free campaigns.. or perhaps campaigns where everyone is granted a certain # (perhaps 300) to use in that campaign. This would add flavor to builds while not introducing needless pvp imbalances.

CP free campaigns are apparently on the slate, though they're a ways out.

reklaw67 wrote: »

Or they could always just grant new players like 300 points once a majority have went passed that mark.

They've already said there will be catch up mechanics which... I mean, from my perspective, that's actually kind of stupid. The diminishing returns on the points themselves are the catch up mechanic. That way someone who's been grinding for thousands of hours is only a little more effective than someone who's simply run the content and hit level cap. The idea that the early points would provide the largest bonus, basically allowing everyone to "catch up" most of the way was baked into the basic system.

But, of course now they're talking catch up mechanics, which is redundant.

reklaw67 wrote: »

Zeni can you also add in a way for us to see the CP that someone has. No reason that this is kept a secret.

There actually is a good one. It discourages discrimination by elitist players for things like Trials and dungeons. I've seen (in other MMOs) dungeon groups gleefully cutting people because they didn't hit some arbitrary (and often unrealistic) number on a gear sheet somewhere.

Now, that said, it also causes problems. I mean, we've got someone in these threads who's flat out lying about my CP total and claiming I don't play the game... which might be more credible if I didn't know exactly what I was talking about, or wasn't consistently active on here. At that point it would be much easier to just link to a character viewer interface. But, that doesn't exist either.

With the way the system is set up, it's a little surprising you can't see anyone's CR. That might come when the Veteran Ranks finally get hauled out behind the woodshed. But I kinda doubt it.

I think anyone voting should also give his CP. Statistical purpose, ya see...

Unless a player can go into Cyrodiil at level 10, and never have to come out to do any sort of character progression, players are going to complain about the advantages other players have. The problem for them is vertical progression.

This was me two weeks ago:

Dru1076 wrote: »

I know this has been pointed out already, but here's what Brian Wheeler had to say not long ago in a very similar thread. They have heard, and I think once the Imperial City is up and running more resources might go toward to this cp free campaign idea.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We are still looking to add non-Champion point campaigns, but it's not easy to do as people have noted. When we have an ETA we'll post it for you all though

Relax guys...it is just a matter of time.

Sure, there are many factors affecting the results in PVP, but those claiming cp's don't make any difference are not fooling anybody. If they didn't make any difference, There would be no point to having them at all and no one would come into threads like this vigorously defending them and trying to prevent cp free campaigns.

And it's still true.

Someone mentioned veteran pvp players having access to crafters. New and casuals have access to some very helpful and friendly guilds. And crafters are out there for hire if someone starting out wants new gear they can get crafted sets too thanks to the genuinely friendly community of Elder Scrolls that exists within the game. I was surprised how fast, with wonderful guilds like Alith...i was able to get great gear.

TequilaFire wrote: »

I actually can't wait for a CP free campaign so I can see what gets cried about next.

218 CP earned. BTW

Hopefully nobody will be crying, but merely drawing attention to the concerns they have in order to have a game worth playing.

People crying makes my sad

But there's 3600 CP's!!!! 3600 of anything has to be ruining something... doesn't it?

Valn wrote: »

,I want to know the majority if people think whether or not CP is ruining PVP

Look at this...what a surprise


50% of players with CP's

and 50% of players without Cp's

Dru1076 wrote: »

The biggest reason I want free of then is because I bought a game without them, and i want the game I bought back. I was happy with a system where you got your v14 and then it was all about build and skill.

Yes I feel the same way. I feel like getting ignored and lied by ZOS (VR remove, game will never go p2b, VR increase to 16, the XP you gain after VR14 will be converted into CP once the system hits the live server).

starkerealm wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

That said, if you get into a 1v1 battle with someone of similar skill that has double your CP, there is a good chance that you will lose.

Though, to be fair, you'll loose because they're wearing The Engine Guardian. Not because they have more CP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

...but because when I push skill button "1" it does 10-20% less damage than the next guy.

If this is happening to you, it's not the CP system. For someone to be swinging for 20% more damage than you on a specific ability, with an otherwise identical setup, you're talking about someone who needs to have a CR close to 2k, or a very poorly optimized CP distribution and a CR around 300. If they're getting +20% on a single star (and presumably a similar buff on two others), they have seriously gimped their CP allocations. At that point, they really should know better.

If you're seeing this happen, it's more likely they're running a pure stam or magicka build, and don't have any points in health and the blue and green flavor they didn't pick. That's where you can realistically get those kinds of damage up. Not from CP.

Two things.

First, I rarely step into cyrodiil without engine guardian these days. I still think my statement stands. 2 people of same skill (we can throw in same gear) that dual, higher CP wins more times than not. So yeah...

Second, I am first and foremost a PvE trials runner. My build for trials is 100% glass cannon. I put absolutely no points or enchants into health on my DK. I am sitting at about 315 CP. I know a few people with 800-1000 CP. They are running the same build I am, and they do at least 10% more damage. This was also very prevalent on my NB. I didnt play my NB in trials for about 75 CP (that I earned on my DK). I took her through a trial after spending the extra 75 CP and it was like a completely different player. My damage shot up drastically.

I will say that skill is still number one, but saying CP doesnt make a huge difference among "equal" players is just flat out untrue.

With respect, the whole "of equal skill" thing never happens. I mean, I know, it's a nice way to try to skirt around the part where the player who is more "skilled" (or more experienced, or more familiar with Cyrodiil meta, or more alert, or better able to think on their feet, or whatever term you'd prefer) will win.

The problem is, skill isn't like your character's skill bar. There aren't specific rigid points that you can cling to and say, "I am quantifiably this skilled." It's also not a single skill. There's a lot of different skills at play in Cyrdodiil, ranging from being able to judge an opponent's action, knowledge of the systems, overall alertness to an ambush, the ability to kick over quickly in the event of an ambush, familiarity with power interactions, familiarity with countering an opponent's attacks (which doesn't translate over from PvE)...

And no one will be exactly matched across the board. I mean, you can say two people are at the same (roughly aggregate) skill level... but moment to moment, one of them will favor over the other, based on their variation, and how well they can deal with the exact situation in front of them.

I mean, we can reduce that down to "skill," if you want. But the really important thing to take away is, people are never equivalent. They're all unique random bundles of chaos waiting to murder us all.

And, while CP will start to play a part in two clones fighting each other in the same gear, that's a hypothetical situation that doesn't really happen. Someone will be better suited to the situation at hand, and CP will not provide enough of a margin to save you (outside of some rare edge cases.)

Flip it on it's head and CP does matter when you're dealing with PvE. But, at the same time, we've got people soloing 4 man content. Which should say something how little a statistical advantage really counts for.

CP doens't affect you that much NOW. But they will in the future. I don't know how people can say that +25% dmg and +25% dmg, critdmg, heal, penetration is nearly the same (green and red perks aren't even included here). And even if someone has 2/3 of every star and someone who hast every star maxed out that's a difference in my opinion. I still agree with Deltia that 1000 CP more than your opponent are a huge advantage (unless you have at least around 1300 CP). I don't know if you have played against people with 3600 on the PTS or not but there are (or were ^^) people who did and they all said that there is a huge difference. Or play League of Legends and see how little advantages do have a huge impact.

Even if you are right and you only need 300 CP to be competive. A new beginner won't farm that 300 CP in a short time. You still need to level up, get undaunted sets, get legendary gear, soon you need to get tel var stones too (for beginners even harder), vigor for stamina users and ON TOP of that CP grind (without CP grind it would be actually quite a lot time you need to spend but actually you could play the game and not grinding the hell out of you). The worst is that there is no real way to get CP except grinding. If there would be 1/2/3/4/x man dungeons where you can get nice gear AND get more CP than with grinding zombies it would be a bit different. Do you really think many new player will do this then there are other games on the market there you do not have to? I'm pretty sure without the PvE part this game wouldn't exist anymore. What's actually more worth: Doing all this zombie grind to be competive in that PvP which is dominated by bugs, lags and botters or doing something else with your time?

{you decide}

im champion points and i find this PVP

vamp_emily wrote: »

I think champion points should only be available for the character that received them. That being said, in Non Vet PvP they should not be able to use CP .

Players with high CP in non vet pvp are impossible to kill.

Too many min/maxers (which also bring the appropriate amounts of cp) in non vet these days, it seems. Kind of a different wind blowing there these days. Well, maybe it's just me.