PvP is ruining Champion Points.

Leandor wrote: »

Thecapeo wrote: »

Except any "skill level" (this game is not that complicated) doesn't explain shields that can absorb 25+K damage and can be refreshed repeatedly while DPSing, while 10 people are laying into them with everything they got and hard CCing them every second they aren't immune. Yes, there's some skill involved in making sure your shield is refreshed before you have to break another CC but beyond that it's just a broken mechanic that requires over the top burst to thwart. It doesn't explain the 15+K heavy bow attacks that this other guy in the same group is dropping on people left and right either. Or that his NB skills do 4-5K more damage than any other NB I face. That's not skill it's raw numbers. It's gear and absurdly high crit damage. Skill will allow you to react faster, chain skills better, etc. No doubt. I'm just talking about the plain silly amount of difference in the base numbers.

And that is unrelated to CP. Whether your hardened ward is 15k or 20k doesn't make a lick of a difference. Whether the WB crit does 15k or 20k is completely unimportant since it is followed up with an ultimate as finisher anyways. You will die to these players irrespective of CP.

But by all means, you may have any opinion you want.

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

its not about optimized build by knowledge, it matter too in the beginning, but since you know about buffs you can get, you use them, but your damage numbers are still a lot weaker that veteran beta players. What is the reason behind this? gear? CPs?

Similar answer: CP exaggerate the issue but are not the cause. The reason for this difference may be that he knows how to block and you don't.

LOL! The numbers are above in this thread. And yes, friggin' obviously, the numbers make a difference when it's the difference between insta-gib and being able to recover and retaliate. You think that NB is hitting that hard without all the crit damage, armor pen and physical damage afforded by CPs? You think that sorc's wards are that tough without bastion, increased healing, or hitting that hard without the increased spell pen and damage, or sustaining that long without cost reduction and regen from CPs? It's straight undeniable math. I'm not saying they still wouldn't win most fights on an even playing field. I'm sure they would but they'd actually have to think about it, they would take damage, and they wouldn't be one or two shotting 95% of the field without these ridiculous imbalances. And CPs, especially with how they interact with some skills and passives are a large part of those imbalances.

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

But you agree that champion points is one thing that CAN make a difference no matter how big or small?

If someone remembered to bathe can make a difference in PvP. Probably a bigger one if they find themselves with an itch at an inopportune time.

The difference between someone with 70 and 100 is, honestly, probably less of a factor than whether or not your stomach is growling. It affects the game, but not much. Of course, if you want to blame your cat batting at your headphones line for your losses in Cyrodiil, none of us can tell you you're wrong.

Why are you bringing real life issues into this? I thought we were talking about the game... :S

But to get back to the topic, an advantage is an advantage no matter how big or small, and I think adding another factor into pvp (CP ) was a big mistake

I'm talking about things that can happen to you which will influence PvP more than your opponent's CP rank. I mean, the real point is, CP is mostly a psychological barrier. The bonuses it gives are far more insignificant in Blackwater Blade than having purple at level gear in part of the right five or six piece set, along with an active purple food buff.

People can point the finger at CP all they want, and it does apply over everything else, but it's literally the most minute part of the build.

If you're in a straight blow for blow with someone, while wearing at level gold gear, with the right matched set bonuses, and it's someone with roughly the same amount of time in the game, with the current tier of active food buffs up, equal access to tripots... then you can say, "well, it's the CP. But, even in that case it's probably not, because your CP totals should be basically similar.

And that's the thing that keeps coming up. The people who are wrecking you in one shot, like the critical charge, light attack, wrecking blow stunt someone mentioned in another thread, or shield stacking, aren't "allowed" by CP. You can do that with no CP allocated using Corrosive Armor. And, you can't do that without Corrosive Armor regardless of your CP.

But, people come in here and they say, "well it must be the CP, because how could I possibly lose?"

starkerealm wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Just... add a way to see the CP in the API, so that we can see an opponent's CP.

Honestly, being able to see a player's Champion Rank wouldn't be the worst thing. I mean, it would promote more elitism, and screw over people trying to get into trials, but... they're doing that now anyway on much flimsier grounds.

What's wrong with elitism? Why would it screw over people going into trials?

It's about other players deciding whether or not you're actually up to snuff, rather than letting players in and prove (or, you know, disprove) their worth.

Trials is the easy one, because I've actually seen similar behavior in other games. When you get into an MMO with an inspect feature, it's not uncommon for players to be kicked from PUGs that are forming because their gear level/quality wasn't up to snuff.

With CP, it's not hard to predict a situation where players would actively exclude group members because someone's CP wasn't high enough for their tastes. I mean, you already see this occasionally in Craglorn where players who rolled the wrong race sometimes get kicked.

Adding CP to the API would be a real venue for discrimination against newer players. Which...

I mean, I wasn't being sarcastic. It wouldn't be the worst thing, but at the same time, adding players' Champion Ranks to the API would lead to more exclusion of newer players, and put more barriers to endgame PvE content. It would put some of this, "he had more CP than me because he destroyed me" complaints to bed, but it would also open up new, far more serious, issues.

I was going to disagree with this, but as there is no inspect system currently in place, it makes sense to not include CPs.

Just because I'd be interested to know what my opponent's REAL level is (seeing v14 tells me effectively nothing about him, now that CPs are in the game), I still wouldn't want to cause any more trouble for PvE players than has already been done over this.

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

The Champion System is great, but I believe the system needs to have a split value depending on what a player is targeting. For example, all damage and damage reduction choices in the Champion System should probably have a different value depending on if the target is a player or an A.I. e.g. Your 10% damage boost would translate to a 5% damage boost against players. Of course the percentages I gave are just an example so that you can see my point about the split-values.

I don't like the idea of seasonal caps or any cap within the Champion System, else it'd just feel like level caps all over again. I'd much rather have these split-values integrated into all forms of damage and damage reduction within the Champion System and I believe it'd be the closest we'd get to pleasing both sides.

I'd honestly rather just go with the non-CP campaigns. It won't actually solve anything, but it'll make people feel better. As people have pointed out, the difference between CR0 and CR3600 is roughly two and a half vet levels.

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, because CP aren't actually the problem. They accrue alongside the real issue which is if you're going up against someone with more experience in Cyrodiil, who's been running in helmet grinds, their gear will be topped out above yours by a substantial margin.

starkerealm wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

The Champion System is great, but I believe the system needs to have a split value depending on what a player is targeting. For example, all damage and damage reduction choices in the Champion System should probably have a different value depending on if the target is a player or an A.I. e.g. Your 10% damage boost would translate to a 5% damage boost against players. Of course the percentages I gave are just an example so that you can see my point about the split-values.

I don't like the idea of seasonal caps or any cap within the Champion System, else it'd just feel like level caps all over again. I'd much rather have these split-values integrated into all forms of damage and damage reduction within the Champion System and I believe it'd be the closest we'd get to pleasing both sides.

I'd honestly rather just go with the non-CP campaigns. It won't actually solve anything, but it'll make people feel better. As people have pointed out, the difference between CR0 and CR3600 is roughly two and a half vet levels.

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, because CP aren't actually the problem. They accrue alongside the real issue which is if you're going up against someone with more experience in Cyrodiil, who's been running in helmet grinds, their gear will be topped out above yours by a substantial margin.

I agree this CP "issue" has been blown way out of proportion, but I can only hope that what they have planned to counter these cries doesn't actually ruin the fun of the system. Sometimes the best decision, is no decision.

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

You are way off on comparing vet ranks and Cps. The difference between V1 and V14 is almost 100% Strength increase. the difference between 1 and 3600 Cps is about 25% strength increase.

starkerealm wrote: »

As people have pointed out, the difference between CR0 and CR3600 is roughly two and a half vet levels.

Please stop trolling. That's not even funny or at least I can't laugh about it...

The difference between 0 CP and someone who maxed out one stat is already 25% strength increase >.< Show me how the *** the difference is only two and a half vet levels.

Please read this: http://deltiasgaming.com/2015/07/03/zos-adding-more-veteran-ranks-and-my-opinions/
Please read and understand...

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

You are way off on comparing vet ranks and Cps. The difference between V1 and V14 is almost 100% Strength increase. the difference between 1 and 3600 Cps is about 25% strength increase.

starkerealm wrote: »

As people have pointed out, the difference between CR0 and CR3600 is roughly two and a half vet levels.

Please stop trolling. That's not even funny or at least I can't laugh about it...

The difference between 0 CP and someone who maxed out one stat is already 25% strength increase >.< Show me how the *** the difference is only two and a half vet levels.

Please read this: http://deltiasgaming.com/2015/07/03/zos-adding-more-veteran-ranks-and-my-opinions/
Please read and understand...

Point being: once you have invested 100 points in the main damage perk (300 cp in total), all other 3300 CP will not bring you another 25%.

Who is trolling?

To elaborate:

The main damage perk for a sorc is thaumaturge. Once you have filled that one, you have 25% increased damage on your class spells. Since every decent sorc is either light or medium attack weaving, his total damage output has not yet increased by 25% - he needs the staff expert as well. He has now spend a total of 600 CP to increase his damage by 25%. Everything else (like 25% spell penetration or 15% crit damage} will not directly convert into damage increase - it will come at reduced value.

The damage difference between V1 and V14 is a 100% increase in spell damage stat alone, in addition to a 50% increase in magicka at the very least. The comparison between veteran ranks and champion ranks is absolutely valid, and the 13 (soon 15) veteran ranks do come out on top.

As I mentioned earlier, here or in another thread - the only real issue with the champion system is that it was sold as horizontal progression (or "alternative advancement") where it factually is a really slow vertical progression system.

And as to your link: Deltia is also only a human with a human opinion. His is not better or worse than any other. Why should any one persons opinion convince me that my opinion is faulty? My own experiences tell me I have assessed the situation correctly. And that is what I base mine on, rather than someone else's opinion, whose reasoning I can't readily verify.

starkerealm wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

You are way off on comparing vet ranks and Cps. The difference between V1 and V14 is almost 100% Strength increase. the difference between 1 and 3600 Cps is about 25% strength increase.

starkerealm wrote: »

As people have pointed out, the difference between CR0 and CR3600 is roughly two and a half vet levels.

Please stop trolling. That's not even funny or at least I can't laugh about it...

The difference between 0 CP and someone who maxed out one stat is already 25% strength increase >.< Show me how the *** the difference is only two and a half vet levels.

Please read this: http://deltiasgaming.com/2015/07/03/zos-adding-more-veteran-ranks-and-my-opinions/
Please read and understand...

Point being: once you have invested 100 points in the main damage perk (300 cp in total), all other 3300 CP will not bring you another 25%.

Who is trolling?

Deltia?

I mean, he's entitled to his opinions, but his whole "skill doesn't matter at all because of CP" thing is just bunk.

I have edited my post a bit to make clearer what I meant.

Leandor wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Who is trolling?

Deltia?

I mean, he's entitled to his opinions, but his whole "skill doesn't matter at all because of CP" thing is just bunk.

I have edited my post a bit to make clearer what I meant.

Fair enough. I'm just tired of his hyperbole being taken as literal fact.

Yeah, it's not the hyperbole itself, it's... well, like I said, the people that take it as gospel truth.

Also, yeah, I agree about the PvE side.

PvP, you're aiming for a moving target. You can never be completely certain how tough or skilled, or prepared an opponent is.

PvE is a stationary target. Enemies will do an exact amount of damage, behave in a very predictable way. Everything (or nearly everything) is a known value. When you get into vDSA or trials, that 2.6% up is actually very significant, because it's working towards a known value.

But, that just isn't there with living opponents.

CP is just another hoop new players have to jump through to be competitive in pvp. I believe there were enough hoops before CP.

Too many attempt to minimize there effect on overall strength of your character. People spend thousands of gold getting a piece of equipment that offers a minuscule improvement in stats.

A fully fleshed out CP player will:
dish out more damage (physical and spells)
take less damage from all forms of magic, damage over time
have higher spell resistance
passive to make you reduce opponents spell resistance
have higher armor values
have higher magicka, stamina, health recovery %.
increased spell crit damage/healing (plus flat 12% increase to spell and weapon crit)
reduced dmg from crits
reduced time spent in cc
reduced cost of sprinting

I'm sure there are other things I've missed.. I really wish someone would do the heavy lifting showing the difference in these areas btw those with mega amounts of points compared to those will a very low amount. I'm sure it has a much great impact then many would want to admit.

reklaw67 wrote: »

A fully fleshed out CP player...

...does not exist.

Right now, if you see someone bragging about how they've made it to 1k CP, you can rest easy to know they're only maybe 2% more effective on average than someone with 300.

Someone with 300 will be on average about 5% more effective than you are.

That's the difference between hitting with a spell for 1000 and hitting with a spell for 1050.

Grind for 300 hours, deal 50 points more damage. In a system where the average player at vet will have over 20k.

Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable life choice.

reklaw67 wrote: »

I'm sure it has a much great impact then many would want to admit.

No, the problem is, a lot of players hit Cyrodiil, and get rolled. It has nothing to do with CP, and everything to do with someone dealing absurd amounts of damage combing skills together in ways you just won't see in PvE. And then you came on here, asked what was wrong, and were told, "oh, it's just CP." Which is crap. If someone hit you for 20k, then less than 1k of that was from CP on a high end CP build.

If my spells are hitting for 15% more then an opponent.. without figuring the benefit over time of having increased spell resistance and penetration, as well as having increased crit dmg.

Not to mention all the other benefits I mentioned.

It just seems like a 5% claim is nothing more then minimizing their effect.. that I mentioned originally.

reklaw67 wrote: »

Are there tests that show it is only 5%? Has anyone done tests just on dmg taken and received? Like a zero CP vs someone with 360+.. all other things being equal.. like they both have on same armor etc.

I'd be interested on that stat alone. I'd be surprised if the difference was only 5%.. not to mention all the other benefits that effect resourse management.

I'm not saying 5% is not correct. Just wondering if tests have shown this or if you just pulled out a #.

It's actually the reported stat modifiers. When you've invested 10 points in a star, you'll be at about 20% of it's final value. For stars like Thaumaturgy or Mighty, they cap at 25%, so 10 points in you'll be getting +5%. So that's outgoing damage. When you start stacking things like spell resist bypass it will go up a little, but that varies depending on who you're fighting.

A character in medium armor will be more vulnerable to spell pen up than someone in heavy armor, but if the medium armor character is a Breton, then that spell pen is only countering their natural resistance... and you start so see the issue.

There are a lot of factors.

Right now my medium armor Nightblade has a spell resist of 15k, a spell pen of 5% will burn 750 points of it. I'm not sure what the raw mitigation there is. But, I can tell you dropping my spell resist by 750 will not increase the damage of your spell by a number anyone cares about. Now, caveat: I might be misunderstanding how penetration works, it's a mechanic I don't pay a lot of attention to outside of rare situations, but that should be accurate.

Again, out of 15k, I loose 750... which... I get more than that for being a Breton.

At 20 points in a 25% star, you'll be at 8.3%, which, yes, it's more than two percent higher, but the point should come across regardless.

For damage resist... it's actually a lot worse. There is a universal spell resist up, and it's a 25% star (and it is nice, but, again on 15k you're going to see a boost to about 15,750) but the armor stars are a little more temperamental. The armor stars require you pick between light, medium, and heavy, and they give you a +% value to all of your armor if you're wearing at least five pieces of the appropriate type. Also, those stars cap at +13%, so 10 points will only get you +2.6%. Now, obviously, you can only benefit from one at a time. Because you can't wear five pieces of medium and five pieces of heavy.

EDIT: Minor correction: 10 points in an armor star is actually 3.6%, though the cap is 13%. So, slightly more than 20% at 10 points.

Some stars do stack together, so if you wanted to specifically resist elemental damage, you can raise your spell resist star and your elemental resist star. Which will give you +10% resistance together. But, you can never add a third star into that mix, and in some circumstances your spell resist won't apply for dealing with some elemental attacks (though, I forget what those circumstances are).

So, again, 5% for a 300cp build, is a roughly accurate value. You do have the freedom to specialize how you choose, so you could ditch the universalist approach, take those 300 points and make your character do three things really well, like +25% weapon damage, +13% heavy armor, and +25% stamina regen, but that's a character who is, on the whole, a lot weaker than someone who's been putting points all over the place.