Are Champion Points ruining PVP?

Flameheart · August 2015

No

PvE (at moment) yes, because content was already poorly scaled before they introduced the CP system, but now there is no scaling at all. I hope this will change somewhat with IC.

PvP no. The first 100 CPs make a difference, after that diminishing returns will kick in harshly for often used CP skills (Magician, Arcanist etc.). I have 2 V14 chars and 260 CPs in spite of having been offline for 6 months since release. I leveled by questing through Cadwell's silver and gold, as a grinder you will have such an amount of CPs even faster.

Valn · August 2015

Yes

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Lorkhan · August 2015

No

i only have 180 CP
work, family... so much to do, so little time
i just play pvp and i really enjoy it
(the problem is the LAG™)

Flameheart · August 2015

No

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

Lorkhan · August 2015

No

+ i really think people with 1000+ CPs dont play pvp at all. they just grind

Valn · August 2015

Yes

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

But you agree that champion points is one thing that CAN make a difference no matter how big or small?

Ragnaroek93 · August 2015

Yes

starkerealm wrote: »

For PvE that's probably good enough. For PvP, you're in the range where you can deal with someone who's been doing PvP for about seven months (if all of that time was in Cyrodiil), if you're wanting to go up against someone who's been doing PvP from day one, and lived through the Batswarm Emperors, then you're less experienced then they are, and that's a distinct disadvantage that a few hundred CP won't overcome.

I have to disagree. In League of Legends there are many players with a few thousand games played who are in bronze division (lowest division) and there are players with only 200 games played who are in gold division or higher. Yes, experience does matter, but learning from mistakes is way more important. If you think after every death what you could have done better you will get better very fast. If you don't and just play the game you won't get better. It's the same as in sport. If you do 30 push ups every day you won't get better after a short period of time. If you start adding weight (just a bit) in every training you will get stronger very fast

I've played PvP in other games before. I have played a lot PvP on my own and going 1 vs 1 or 1 vs x. I made a break and then I came back there was a new feature which allowed you to take 20% less damage (overall). I had no chance dueling people I used to kill before my break. After I catched up and got the 20% I was doing fine again. This showed me, that even 20% are totally gamebreaking. But in ESO it's not a 20% advantage, it is 25% on nearly everything. You really want to tell me, that this isn't a HUGE advantage?! Yes, there are no people out there with 3600 CP yet, but there will be some in one year if ZOS don't change anything. There were a lot of people playing the PTS before CP were released and there it was possible to gain all this CP. Many players did duels with 70, 300 or 1000 points against people with 3600 points and they said that there was no chance to win. I remeber many people who actually said that EXACTLY THIS WILL HAPPEN WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW. But ZOS was like "we don't care, push it out on the live server".

Also guides and streams do help a lot. And let us be fair. ESO PvP isn't that difficult as many people here want it to be.

Flameheart · August 2015

No

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

But you agree that champion points is one thing that CAN make a difference no matter how big or small?

Sure, they can make a difference, but the impact is far from ruining PvP...and that was your primary question in the poll.

starkerealm · August 2015

No

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

But you agree that champion points is one thing that CAN make a difference no matter how big or small?

If someone remembered to bathe can make a difference in PvP. Probably a bigger one if they find themselves with an itch at an inopportune time.

The difference between someone with 70 and 100 is, honestly, probably less of a factor than whether or not your stomach is growling. It affects the game, but not much. Of course, if you want to blame your cat batting at your headphones line for your losses in Cyrodiil, none of us can tell you you're wrong.

Junkogen · August 2015

Yes

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

I thought that using macros was considered cheating and therefore illegal in this game. Sounds like you just incriminated yourself.

vamp_emily · August 2015

Yes

I think champion points should only be available for the character that received them. That being said, in Non Vet PvP they should not be able to use CP .

Players with high CP in non vet pvp are impossible to kill.

Valn · August 2015

Yes

starkerealm wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

But you agree that champion points is one thing that CAN make a difference no matter how big or small?

If someone remembered to bathe can make a difference in PvP. Probably a bigger one if they find themselves with an itch at an inopportune time.

The difference between someone with 70 and 100 is, honestly, probably less of a factor than whether or not your stomach is growling. It affects the game, but not much. Of course, if you want to blame your cat batting at your headphones line for your losses in Cyrodiil, none of us can tell you you're wrong.

Why are you bringing real life issues into this? I thought we were talking about the game... :S

But to get back to the topic, an advantage is an advantage no matter how big or small, and I think adding another factor into pvp (CP ) was a big mistake

willymchilybily · August 2015

No

so much arguing out of context. CP matter of course, but they are not "ruining PVP" if you have no CP and someone has a few hundred major difference, and for you personally it may be "ruining your experience". but you dont know how many CP the guy had who killed you has. You have to therefore speculate it is your lack of CP and his abundance. but you dont know he has an abundance only that you don't. Its like non nightblade characters moaning about NB OP and non sorcs moaning about Sorc OP.

you could just be going against a deltia or a sypher of the pvp world. or you could be in a losing campaign where the other team is rocking a lot of buffs. you could be facing someone who is geared specifically to counter your set up. in my mind traditional NB/DK/Sorc set ups are like rock scissors paper. where if it wasn't for insane 1 shots low ttk mechanics you would be disadvantaged just by the enemy skill sets forcing you to waste resources more prolifically because they are set to counter your abilities so very well.

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

set to counter your abilities? no way man. You have true that cps are not the only case, but power creep in this game is insane. too much pve grinding behind pvp power

Flameheart · August 2015

No

Junkogen wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

The first 100 CPs make a difference

So a person with 100 CP and someone with 70 CP are exactly the same?

Nope, but besides the fact that the difference will be pretty small, why should they be equal at all ? In other MMOs you are able to outclass other PvPers by superior gear, in this game you can do that to a much more minor degree, because most of the stuff is craftable and/or buyable for gold and/or tradable between twinks.

The gap between 0 CPs and 100 might be remarkable for sure, after that -> diminishing returns.

The enemy of PvP in this game is

-lag

and maybe

-macros

I said "maybe" for the later one, because in fact everybody can make them and use them.

I thought that using macros was considered cheating and therefore illegal in this game. Sounds like you just incriminated yourself.

Not really, I am sometimes the solo healer running behind the zerg to achieve easy APs to get the missing skills to get the max out of PvE. PvP does not bother me at all, nor do I need macroing to spam Healing Springs.

In addition there are dozens of threads on this forum about macroing and I can't remember that there was anywhere explicitly declared that the use of macros is illegal...besides the fact that it would be pretty difficult to prove evidence for that. This area of a game is "grey" and as it seems remains "grey". On the other side, declaring a G19 keyboard as a 3rd-party-software-tool might have some consequences, because I doubt Logitech will be a friend of that decision.

Thecapeo · August 2015

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

TequilaFire · August 2015

No

So if they implement the no CP campaign tomorrow and you still die and you will, what then?
Just curious because people cried no fair even before CP if they got killed.
In PvP one has to die one has to live it is the way.

Leandor · August 2015

No

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

That would only be true if you would have to evenly distribute the points.

There are 2 main and 2 supplemental stars in each section for each build. This is the reasoning behind the 300 points break - once you have 300 points, you have a large part of the strongly influential bonuses. So of course, the difference between 100 and 300 is substantial. But the difference between 300 and 1000 is less, even though the point difference is huge.

And that is what is meant by diminishing returns.

technohic · August 2015

Yes

Yes; but not so much in the balancing standpoint; at least not as bad yet probably. That will come later when you need new blood to come in and start PvPing. in the meantime; it will be perception of it and perception defines reality.

The real problem is more about creating a grind environment rather than an engaging game. People are rewarded for grinding more so than participating with actual goals in the game mode of their choosing.

Thecapeo · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

That would only be true if you would have to evenly distribute the points.

There are 2 main and 2 supplemental stars in each section for each build. This is the reasoning behind the 300 points break - once you have 300 points, you have a large part of the strongly influential bonuses. So of course, the difference between 100 and 300 is substantial. But the difference between 300 and 1000 is less, even though the point difference is huge.

And that is what is meant by diminishing returns.

Sure but that's not the level of difference most people are discussing here as far as and that's not the level of difference new players are likely to run into either for that matter. I was just pointing out you get a pretty significant advantage even fairly early on in your CPs. For instance, on PS4 right now PvP is run by PC transfers. New V14s don't stand a chance against these folks and there's a couple I run into every night now that are literally unkillable. They can stand there and let 10 people beat on them, drop ultimates on them, and laugh as their shields don't drop before they murder everyone. That's due to them already having all leg gear and a crap-ton of CPs (and, in this instance, the fact that sorcs get their mitigation and DPS from the same source). You literally hear people quitting in area chat and, though I'm sticking it out, I can't blame them. It's stupid. I've PvPed in a lot of MMOs and played a million PvP type games in general from FPS to MOBAs and I've never seen this level of imbalance before. Even in MMOs where there's always a gear element the difference is a few percentage points at most. Here, between gear an CPs we're talking 10s of percentages. 3 under-geared but level capped characters should have no issue taking out one well geared character (let alone 10). The balance is way out of whack and CPs are a large contributing factor to it.

willymchilybily · August 2015

No

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

@Thecapeo
actually its more like x 2.7 for most skills majority scale of Y=X^0.7
I even made a suggestion before http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2164115#
to gimp the effect further

and when you consider passives like night blades get 30% stamina regen, or dks can use igneous shield for + 30% to healing they do. And all the other various options with racial passives and class passives/skills. really that difference of +5.3% vs +11.5% is actually more like +35.3% vs +41.5%. maybe Im exaggerating a bit but you get the idea.

Flameheart · August 2015

No

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

You have a point here, but my answer would be why should there be no difference ? In other MMOs people achieve much higher stat difference counts just by using superior gear the normal average guy can not even dream of to achieve, because he needs to raid for that and needs to be a member of a guild that is good at raiding to have a constant item flow.

This thread just astounds me, the first time I see a thread where people request some sort of socialism for PvP, an area where everybody lurks for and abuses every advantage he can get...

As a player who mostly does PvE, I have to admit that I even like the CP system. In other MMOs you get to max level and then you are only able to advance your character by gear farming, mostly done by hardcore raiding. At last you have your T5 (or what ever) set and now ? Here you are able to endlessly advance your character, although in minimal steps at a certain degree.

The question of this poll is utter wrong, the correct question should be: "Will the CP system in its current form kill the whole game at a certain point in the future?"

My answer would be "maybe" or maybe even "yes", because how will you scale PvE content for a newbie V14 having 30 CPs and a veteran with over 1000 CPs ? How many newbies might this game have in a year ? To make the CP system a PvP issue exclusively is utter wrong and just draws attention into the wrong direction.

RustedValor · August 2015

Yes

Not because it gives 1 player has an advantage over another with huge grinded CP but because it allows infinite resource builds that enable broken game mechanics that require bandaid fixes to balance pvp. The changes to dodge, block, streak, damage, healing, barriers, etc are directly in response to the regen and reduction of CP. In large battles LAG is the real thing ruining pvp. Either way it seems seasonal caps and a catch up mechanic are in the near future. With the bandaids added in IC + New Item Sets, it seems to be managable.

For new players trying to catch up, just do what I did. Instead of grinding for CP, roll new characters and grind them to V14. This way you can get CP and have multiple characters. By the time you have 1 of each class up to v14 you will have enough CP to be competative in PvP. Its not so bad now that XP potions are cheap at guild stores. Took me 2 weeks to get my Imperial Nightblade to V14, maxing out all weapons and skills that I plan on using for both magica and stamina builds on that character. Grinding CP at max level sucks because there are only a few grind spots that are decent at that level and are heavily camped, while the lower VR areas are allot easier to grind.

Legendzerox · August 2015

Yes

Champion points in my opinion are only a part of whats ruining PvP. A person with a lot of champion levels will indeed become unkillable and become a wrecking machine, but its also class mechanics and an ever so horrible balance philosophy of nerfing anything deemed "op" creating the next op class and spec until its nerfed and another thing rises to power. Like many devs before Zenimax, they don't know how to properly balance a class, so they just nerf it.

Leandor · August 2015

No

Thecapeo wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

That would only be true if you would have to evenly distribute the points.

There are 2 main and 2 supplemental stars in each section for each build. This is the reasoning behind the 300 points break - once you have 300 points, you have a large part of the strongly influential bonuses. So of course, the difference between 100 and 300 is substantial. But the difference between 300 and 1000 is less, even though the point difference is huge.

And that is what is meant by diminishing returns.

Sure but that's not the level of difference most people are discussing here as far as and that's not the level of difference new players are likely to run into either for that matter. I was just pointing out you get a pretty significant advantage even fairly early on in your CPs. For instance, on PS4 right now PvP is run by PC transfers. New V14s don't stand a chance against these folks and there's a couple I run into every night now that are literally unkillable. They can stand there and let 10 people beat on them, drop ultimates on them, and laugh as their shields don't drop before they murder everyone. That's due to them already having all leg gear and a crap-ton of CPs (and, in this instance, the fact that sorcs get their mitigation and DPS from the same source). You literally hear people quitting in area chat and, though I'm sticking it out, I can't blame them. It's stupid. I've PvPed in a lot of MMOs and played a million PvP type games in general from FPS to MOBAs and I've never seen this level of imbalance before. Even in MMOs where there's always a gear element the difference is a few percentage points at most. Here, between gear an CPs we're talking 10s of percentages. 3 under-geared but level capped characters should have no issue taking out one well geared character (let alone 10). The balance is way out of whack and CPs are a large contributing factor to it.

We're going to restart a discussion that has been had countless times since CP implementation, but ok. Here goes.

A new player will be at a disadvantage due to being low level at first. During that time, he has not much chance of competing, not because of CP but because of missing abilities, skill points and equipment. That also means he will have a hard time learning anything. Even going into non-vet, where CP only make a negligible difference (since health/stamina/magicka/their respective regeneration stats/spell and weapon damage/armor/spell resist are not modified by CP at all), they will still encounter the (player) skill difference that will turn off most.

When he finally arrives at V14, he will still be at a disadvantage, because he still has to learn about what is going on in PvP. There are some people gifted for computer games, that instinctively get the concepts and the mechanics - these are those that say CP is not an issue. The majority looks for an easy explanation, because computer gaming can't be difficult enough to explain the skill difference encountered.

The fact remains that the real reason why the new V14 will not be able to compete is because he does not have the knowledge - learned or read up - to optimize his build. Irrespective of CP, he will do a quarter of the damage and will be able to take at most a quarter of the beatings those others do, simply because he has no clue what to do. Even copying some uber build from "teh intarwebs" will not help him at all, unless he understands the reasoning for the build and incorporates the same playstyle.

This is true for at least 90% of the players complaining about CP disadvantage. Yes, this is a guestimated number. No, I don't have any proof. I am absolutely sure the number is true, nonetheless.

After you have PvP'd for 100 CP points worth of time, you will either have given up on the game because it is too fast to cope with or you will have learned enough to realize what is really the cause of the effect. If you disappear into a cave to mindlessly beat on goblins, you will come out and still claim that it is those few that have double your grinded amount of CP that beat the crap out of you.

And you will still be wrong. You still lack the knowledge and the expertise and dexterity to pull off what you see in those 1vX videos.

I have a mediocre amount of CP at only 300. After seeing it on the forums, I did a reset and tested for a couple hours without a single point distributed. Of course I was significantly weaker and of course there were situations where I simply couldn't just jump in and rock.

But with very little adjustment to my playstyle I was able to retain my usual KB/D ratio just fine. Why? Because I am aware of what works and what not. It is as simple as that.

And this is why I find these discussions about the benefits of the CP system completely ridiculously useless. Both sides, those saying that CP don't matter as well as those saying all problems come from CP, are completely and utterly wrong. CP is no different then gear. Or character levels. Or any other vertical progression system.

The only problem with the CP system is that it was presented as a horizontal system - which it is not. It's a slow arse vertical system. And it's fine even as is. They are getting into a catch-up mechanism. Hopefully they don't do crap caps.

People seriously need to stop confusing training and CP.

ebls_BR · August 2015

No

Nope. What is ruinning pvp:
1 - LAG
2 - Exploits players with macro, multiple mundus stones (some with 5-6), CP passives bugged, etc.
3 - Imbalance issues (nirnhoned, stamina x magicka imbalance, etc.).

21jws10 · August 2015

As a console player with Rank 32 CP (deleted straight after vet so not earning any atm) they don't bother me one bit, and I'm primarily PvP based.

Thecapeo · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Thecapeo wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Thecapeo wrote: »

People keep saying diminishing returns, which while true, really doesn't describe the difference properly. So I popped some numbers into a CP calculator. Take a 100CP vs 300CP and average those among say 3 skills per the colors. So the 100CP gets (for ease) 11CP in 3 spots and the 300CP gets 33CP. For spell crit that's a difference of 5.3% vs 11.5%. More than double. In fact it's more than double for every spot. Say you put everything into 1 slot. That's 11.5% vs 24.8%. So yes, diminishing returns. 3x the cp to gain double the effect but who cares? There aren't that many slots worth spending on per build so the diminishing returns become pretty negligible. Even just 100CP vs 200CP is a big difference. Even distribution among 3 slots gets you 11.5% vs 18.7%. Between 2 slots is 15.4% vs 25%. And because of the way some of these percentages interact with skills and passives the difference can be exacerbated even more.

That would only be true if you would have to evenly distribute the points.

There are 2 main and 2 supplemental stars in each section for each build. This is the reasoning behind the 300 points break - once you have 300 points, you have a large part of the strongly influential bonuses. So of course, the difference between 100 and 300 is substantial. But the difference between 300 and 1000 is less, even though the point difference is huge.

And that is what is meant by diminishing returns.

Sure but that's not the level of difference most people are discussing here as far as and that's not the level of difference new players are likely to run into either for that matter. I was just pointing out you get a pretty significant advantage even fairly early on in your CPs. For instance, on PS4 right now PvP is run by PC transfers. New V14s don't stand a chance against these folks and there's a couple I run into every night now that are literally unkillable. They can stand there and let 10 people beat on them, drop ultimates on them, and laugh as their shields don't drop before they murder everyone. That's due to them already having all leg gear and a crap-ton of CPs (and, in this instance, the fact that sorcs get their mitigation and DPS from the same source). You literally hear people quitting in area chat and, though I'm sticking it out, I can't blame them. It's stupid. I've PvPed in a lot of MMOs and played a million PvP type games in general from FPS to MOBAs and I've never seen this level of imbalance before. Even in MMOs where there's always a gear element the difference is a few percentage points at most. Here, between gear an CPs we're talking 10s of percentages. 3 under-geared but level capped characters should have no issue taking out one well geared character (let alone 10). The balance is way out of whack and CPs are a large contributing factor to it.

We're going to restart a discussion that has been had countless times since CP implementation, but ok. Here goes.

A new player will be at a disadvantage due to being low level at first. During that time, he has not much chance of competing, not because of CP but because of missing abilities, skill points and equipment. That also means he will have a hard time learning anything. Even going into non-vet, where CP only make a negligible difference (since health/stamina/magicka/their respective regeneration stats/spell and weapon damage/armor/spell resist are not modified by CP at all), they will still encounter the (player) skill difference that will turn off most.

When he finally arrives at V14, he will still be at a disadvantage, because he still has to learn about what is going on in PvP. There are some people gifted for computer games, that instinctively get the concepts and the mechanics - these are those that say CP is not an issue. The majority looks for an easy explanation, because computer gaming can't be difficult enough to explain the skill difference encountered.

The fact remains that the real reason why the new V14 will not be able to compete is because he does not have the knowledge - learned or read up - to optimize his build. Irrespective of CP, he will do a quarter of the damage and will be able to take at most a quarter of the beatings those others do, simply because he has no clue what to do. Even copying some uber build from "teh intarwebs" will not help him at all, unless he understands the reasoning for the build and incorporates the same playstyle.

This is true for at least 90% of the players complaining about CP disadvantage. Yes, this is a guestimated number. No, I don't have any proof. I am absolutely sure the number is true, nonetheless.

After you have PvP'd for 100 CP points worth of time, you will either have given up on the game because it is too fast to cope with or you will have learned enough to realize what is really the cause of the effect. If you disappear into a cave to mindlessly beat on goblins, you will come out and still claim that it is those few that have double your grinded amount of CP that beat the crap out of you.

And you will still be wrong. You still lack the knowledge and the expertise and dexterity to pull off what you see in those 1vX videos.

I have a mediocre amount of CP at only 300. After seeing it on the forums, I did a reset and tested for a couple hours without a single point distributed. Of course I was significantly weaker and of course there were situations where I simply couldn't just jump in and rock.

But with very little adjustment to my playstyle I was able to retain my usual KB/D ratio just fine. Why? Because I am aware of what works and what not. It is as simple as that.

And this is why I find these discussions about the benefits of the CP system completely ridiculously useless. Both sides, those saying that CP don't matter as well as those saying all problems come from CP, are completely and utterly wrong. CP is no different then gear. Or character levels. Or any other vertical progression system.

The only problem with the CP system is that it was presented as a horizontal system - which it is not. It's a slow arse vertical system. And it's fine even as is. They are getting into a catch-up mechanism. Hopefully they don't do crap caps.

People seriously need to stop confusing training and CP.

Except any "skill level" (this game is not that complicated) doesn't explain shields that can absorb 25+K damage and can be refreshed repeatedly while DPSing, while 10 people are laying into them with everything they got and hard CCing them every second they aren't immune. Yes, there's some skill involved in making sure your shield is refreshed before you have to break another CC but beyond that it's just a broken mechanic that requires over the top burst to thwart. It doesn't explain the 15+K heavy bow attacks that this other guy in the same group is dropping on people left and right either. Or that his NB skills do 4-5K more damage than any other NB I face. That's not skill it's raw numbers. It's gear and absurdly high crit damage. Skill will allow you to react faster, chain skills better, etc. No doubt. I'm just talking about the plain silly amount of difference in the base numbers.

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

its not about optimized build by knowledge, it matter too in the beginning, but since you know about buffs you can get, you use them, but your damage numbers are still a lot weaker that veteran beta players. What is the reason behind this? gear? CPs?

Leandor · August 2015

No

Thecapeo wrote: »

Except any "skill level" (this game is not that complicated) doesn't explain shields that can absorb 25+K damage and can be refreshed repeatedly while DPSing, while 10 people are laying into them with everything they got and hard CCing them every second they aren't immune. Yes, there's some skill involved in making sure your shield is refreshed before you have to break another CC but beyond that it's just a broken mechanic that requires over the top burst to thwart. It doesn't explain the 15+K heavy bow attacks that this other guy in the same group is dropping on people left and right either. Or that his NB skills do 4-5K more damage than any other NB I face. That's not skill it's raw numbers. It's gear and absurdly high crit damage. Skill will allow you to react faster, chain skills better, etc. No doubt. I'm just talking about the plain silly amount of difference in the base numbers.

And that is unrelated to CP. Whether your hardened ward is 15k or 20k doesn't make a lick of a difference. Whether the WB crit does 15k or 20k is completely unimportant since it is followed up with an ultimate as finisher anyways. You will die to these players irrespective of CP.

But by all means, you may have any opinion you want.

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

its not about optimized build by knowledge, it matter too in the beginning, but since you know about buffs you can get, you use them, but your damage numbers are still a lot weaker that veteran beta players. What is the reason behind this? gear? CPs?

Similar answer: CP exaggerate the issue but are not the cause. The reason for this difference may be that he knows how to block and you don't.