Lore Issue: Wha the....?! spoilers

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The player character in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are NOT normal people. I don't want to give out any spoilers for those games but trust me when I say every single one of those characters have a spark of what is divine in the TES universe.

Wait, the Dragonborn is... well, a Dragonborn. So that's their bit.

The Nerevarine is theorized to be a Dragonborn in some circles (which, I don't really find compelling, but that's a different discussion), so, what's unusual about them? Aside from being a chosen of Azura, and being the reborn incarnation of an ancient Chimer general, I mean. Well, and their ability to catalyze a magical apotheosis using spellcrafting. Yeah, nothing unusual about all of that, right?

We know the Champion is not a Dragonborn... also they're the only protagonist from an Elder Scrolls game to show up in a later title in their new role as not-Jyggalag, (often mispronounced giga-lag by ESO players dying in 2e Cyrodiil...) But, otherwise they're basically human... humer? Normalish.

Or, am I missing something?

WARNING: I'm about to dilvulge information which could be seen as SPOILERS if you want to play previous TES games.

I'm only suggesting that each of these characters either attains divinity or has the spark of the divine innately. I can see how one might suggest the Nerevarine is a dragonborn but I was pointing to his divinity or divine spark as evidenced by the fact that Vivec acquiesces his own divinity to you. It may very well be that such divine spark might result in dragonborn status, or it might not. That is really not particularly clear and not really important I imagine. I find it a little odd from a story perspective actually that the Dunmer do not create a new church/cult based upon this Nerevarine later in the series. Perhaps they will, and it would be logical for them to do so. Your ability to survive Divayth Fyr's experient and the disease results in apotheosis.

In Oblivion it is true you are not dragonborn but I wasn't suggesting that, simply pointing to divine spark. You got the point dead on about being not-Jyggalag. I've always taken it that the Champion is either an incarnation of the madness of Sheogorath, maybe even part of the decent side of Sheo/Jygg. Jyggalag and Sheo are the same person but fractured, and it is said in lore that when Jyggy shows up it is for a brief moment every 1000 years (or somesuch). I think the whole incident suggests that perhaps the hero of Kvatch and Champion are in fact part of Sheogorath's split personality. If this isn't the case at the very least you become Sheo in the end thereby attaining a form of oblivion divinity.

Skyrim speaks for itself. Demi-god child of Akatosh. You tromp about Aetherius, and any other Oblivion realm you please. You send Alduin away licking his wounds. Alduin who is part of the Akatosh/Alduin duality. Heavy stuff there.

Ultimately my point is that every character of the TES series is well beyond mere mortals, particularly as you reach end game. Perhaps they are not this way at the outset of the story, but they certainly develop in that way. That is the only point I was making. My statements earlier are to that effect and at that point you shouldn't find it odd that Bellerophon rode the Pegasus (greek myth). When you're talking about Champions and half-divines, the rules get a little screwy, so I don't have a hard time with someone having an elemental horse of ice from the oblivion realm of Takubar. Why should anyone?

starkerealm · August 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The player character in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim are NOT normal people. I don't want to give out any spoilers for those games but trust me when I say every single one of those characters have a spark of what is divine in the TES universe.

Wait, the Dragonborn is... well, a Dragonborn. So that's their bit.

The Nerevarine is theorized to be a Dragonborn in some circles (which, I don't really find compelling, but that's a different discussion), so, what's unusual about them? Aside from being a chosen of Azura, and being the reborn incarnation of an ancient Chimer general, I mean. Well, and their ability to catalyze a magical apotheosis using spellcrafting. Yeah, nothing unusual about all of that, right?

We know the Champion is not a Dragonborn... also they're the only protagonist from an Elder Scrolls game to show up in a later title in their new role as not-Jyggalag, (often mispronounced giga-lag by ESO players dying in 2e Cyrodiil...) But, otherwise they're basically human... humer? Normalish.

Or, am I missing something?

WARNING: I'm about to dilvulge information which could be seen as SPOILERS if you want to play previous TES games.

So long as it doesn't start before Morrowind, I'm god, thanks. ER, good. I meant good.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm only suggesting that each of these characters either attains divinity or has the spark of the divine innately. I don't know if/how you can suggest the Nerevarine is a dragonborn but I can point to his divinity or divine spark as evidenced by the fact that Vivec acquiesces his own divinity to you. I find it a little odd from a story perspective actually that the Dunmer do not create a new church/cult based upon this Nerevarine later in the series. Perhaps they will, and it would be logical for them to do so. Your ability to survive Divayth Fyr's experient and the disease results in apotheosis.

There's two things here. The Nerevarine didn't become the core of the new Dunmer religion for two reasons:

One) They didn't stick around and demand to be worshiped like the Tribunal had. If they'd done this, it might actually be a different story, but Oblivion tells us they left for Akivir and were (apparently) never heard from again.

Two) They deliberately upset the Tribunal Temple. Depending on player choices, they either waxed both surviving members of The Tribunal or left Vivec as a shell, and killed Almalexia. Beyond that they threatened the Temple's status quo. For the Temple Hierarchy the Nerevarine is an immediate threat. So when they left, they quickly transitioned back to worshiping the Anticipations. Indicating they weren't about to give up their political power, even if their gods were dead. It's not a very cheerful narrative, but it is very true to human behavior, at least in my experience.

As for the Nerevarine's Apotheosis... this is actually a systemic thing baked into the way Morrowind works.

Consider for a moment that Morrowind is the only Elder Scrolls title with uncapped stats. Oblivion softcaps how far you can enchant a stat. If I remember, it also internally hard caps how much you can improve your alchemy and spellcrafting through boosting your stats. But, the Nerevarine can become a literal walking god, with no intervention by Vivec. I remember someone describing Morrowind as a medieval superhero simulator... it that's not completely wrong. You're given the tools and then invited to break the game in a way that later games don't allow.

Now, if that's actually something that's innate to the Nerevarine, a mechanical theme, or a developer oversight isn't entirely apparent. It could be that Morrowind was simply never tested to keep someone from getting a strength score over 50k, and so when players started breaking the alchemy system to do it, it was a happy accident.

Also, and this might seem odd, but the weirdest thing for me about the Nerevarine is... well, that they're the Nerevarine. Reincarnation is not a normal part of Tamerillic religion. People die, they pass on to Aetherius, and then... what? No one's quite sure, (though we have seen The Far Shores and Sovengard, so we know that the dead go someplace.) What they don't do is come back. At least not as living people.

And, all of this happens before Vivec.

I mean, I'll grant you there's something really weird with the Nerevarine, I'm just not sure exactly what.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

In Oblivion it is true you are not dragonborn but I wasn't suggesting that, simply pointing to divine spark. You got the point dead on about being not-Jyggalag. I've always taken it that the Champion is either an incarnation of the madness of Sheogorath, maybe even part of the decent side of Sheo/Jygg. Jyggalag and Sheo are the same person but fractured, and it is said in lore that when Jyggy shows up it is for a brief moment every 1000 years (or somesuch). I think the whole incident suggests that perhaps the hero of Kvatch and Champion are in fact part of Sheogorath's split personality. If this isn't the case at the very least you become Sheo in the end thereby attaining a form of oblivion divinity.

Okay, that one's a little effect preceding cause. If I remember correctly... and it's been about eight years since I last played through Shivering Isles, the entire point of the tasks Sheogorath is putting in front of the champion is so they'll become more attuned to his nature and be usable as a surrogate so he can remain Jyggalag.

So, it's not that you're playing an incarnation of Sheogorath from the instant you step out of the prison, but once you're in the Shivering Isles, you're on course to becoming a Daedric Prince. In the end, it leads to the theory that the Sheogorath you encounter in Skyrim is the player character from Oblivion.

I mean, we are dealing with a literal god of madness, so it is possible this was all a plan by Sheogorath in advance... but that seems a little out of character.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Skyrim speaks for itself. Demi-god child of Akatosh. You tromp about Aetherius, and any other Oblivion realm you please. You send Alduin away licking his wounds. Alduin who is part of the Akatosh/Alduin duality. Heavy stuff there.

Ultimately my point is that every character of the TES series is well beyond mere mortals, particularly as you reach end game. Perhaps they are not this way at the outset of the story, but they certainly develop in that way. That is the only point I was making.

I'm not sure it's every one. But most of the protagonists since Daggerfall are distinctly not human in some way. Something that's worth noticing is, with the Dragonborn... that permanent heal over time you get? Yeah, that's not normal. Other characters in Skyrim don't get that. On top of that your starting HP is ludicrously high. Normal characters start with around 30-45, and the Dragonborn starts with an even 100. That's the range of a level 10-15 human character.

The ones I'm not sure about are the Nerevarine, I can't decide if they're honestly self made, or if something else is at work there, and the Champion, at least at the beginning of Oblivion. By the end, they're definitely something else.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

You're getting my point at least @starkerealm. The actual meaning and results of what these Champions/Heroes are is debatable, but I think its pretty clear that at most conservative estimates they are demigods or something more. In other words they represent figures like Perseus, Hercules, Beowulf, Sigurd, Sigmund, Achilles, Bellerophon, Xbalanque, Maui, Sun the Monkey King etc. It is pretty normal for characters of these themes to have something like a magical shiny horse (Ice Horse) or Firey Death Horse or a magical tiger or whatever.

starkerealm · August 2015

Actually, if you want the really weird and trippy read on the player's superpowers in The Elder Scrolls, go dig up The Metaphysics of Morrowind. It approaches the games with the idea that the player's agency affects the actual setting. So things like the player creating things in the Construction Kit and adding them to the world, or reverting to earlier saves is actually happening in the setting. And that the dragonbreaks are just the universe trying to come to terms with half a million psychopaths being released on Nirn, and constantly reloading earlier quicksaves.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Magic and as we all know magic doesn't gotta explain [insert other work for dung].

icontested · August 2015

Lenikus wrote: »

Gelston wrote: »

I figured that too, but then again, why didn't Sai and Lyris age also? They still look very young.

Lirys ... Lyris...Lyryz, whatever, was working, so she was being useful, hence why her body was somewhat preserved, only her mind was f*kd over, because you know, molag bal gotta be molag bal.
And the same goes for Sai, if you remember his 'torture' sessions, those were mostly just poking him with sharp flammable objects at first, and then trying to seduce him; the goal was to extract information, they wanted to break his mind, not his soul.

Trust Leni on this one, imma daedric lord expert.
(notreallybutiliektodream)

#Edit because grammar iz hard.

/LyrisConfig release
/LyrisConfig renew

She always looks good

WhiteCoatSyndrome · August 2015

The Prophet got a special prison all to himself at game start, I don't think it's out of the question that worse things happened to him physically than the others. I would expect Mannimarco would focus more attention on him because Mannimarco seems the sort to write the rest of the companions off as lackeys and not care about them until they start thwarting his plans, though that's just IMO.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

No doubt someone will come in and give me a 5 page essay how our Dragonborn was able to read the scroll without any adverse effects

IIRC the Dragonborn could read the Scrolls because the Scrolls WANTED the Dragonborn to read them.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I find it a little odd from a story perspective actually that the Dunmer do not create a new church/cult based upon this Nerevarine later in the series. Perhaps they will, and it would be logical for them to do so.

Theory: The Dunmer had spent a few Eras with the Tribunal passing themselves off as gods and they weren't ready to be burned like that again. Add to that the Nerevarine bailed for Akavir within the handful of years between Morrowind and Oblivion, and as result did absolutely zilch for Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis and the combined moon impact/Red Mountain eruption...it's possible they DID continue the Nerevarine Cult, it just didn't survive their hero not being there for them through multiple major disasters.

Emissary_Vex · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

The ones I'm not sure about are the Nerevarine, I can't decide if they're honestly self made, or if something else is at work there, and the Champion, at least at the beginning of Oblivion. By the end, they're definitely something else.

I like the theory that the player is actually a reincarnation of Lorkhan.

Enodoc · August 2015

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

According to the lore, the original 5 companions attempted to use the amulet of kings and were betrayed by Mannimarco in 2E 579.

According to the story after, Varen Aquilarios just disappeared.

The game is set in 2E 582, three years after these events. Varen Aquilarios is now aged vastly, and is a blind moth priest. Becoming a moth priest and learning to read an elder scroll takes an incredibly long time, and it takes several readings to go blind from it.

So...something isn't quite adding up.

Ageing -> Caused by the Soulburst. You can't be the epicentre of a cosmic event without it having some effect on you. For Varen, this left him aged and diminished.
Blindness -> I agree with UrQuan on this - it happens over time if you read an Elder Scroll with the proper training; without, it can happen almost instantly.

Harborage loading screen:
Once the Prophet was a man of vigor and strength. Some harrowing experience has aged and diminished him, leaving him blind and almost feeble.
"Some harrowing experience" I take to be the Soulburst.

sadownik wrote: »

Oh i have also a lore question. How someone who is repeatedly told by people of all races , daedras, supernatural beeings and some animals that choosen one doesnt have a soul can use the second passive in soul magic line?

I'm just going to say this one is worded poorly - it's not "your soul" that's exploding, because your soul is missing; what is exploding is the Daedric animus (or "vestige") that is there instead of a soul.

starkerealm wrote: »

As for the Nerevarine's Apotheosis... this is actually a systemic thing baked into the way Morrowind works.

Consider for a moment that Morrowind is the only Elder Scrolls title with uncapped stats. Oblivion softcaps how far you can enchant a stat. If I remember, it also internally hard caps how much you can improve your alchemy and spellcrafting through boosting your stats. But, the Nerevarine can become a literal walking god, with no intervention by Vivec. I remember someone describing Morrowind as a medieval superhero simulator... it that's not completely wrong. You're given the tools and then invited to break the game in a way that later games don't allow.

Did you just shoehorn some reasonable and believable lore into a game mechanic?

Elebeth · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, if you want the really weird and trippy read on the player's superpowers in The Elder Scrolls, go dig up The Metaphysics of Morrowind. It approaches the games with the idea that the player's agency affects the actual setting. So things like the player creating things in the Construction Kit and adding them to the world, or reverting to earlier saves is actually happening in the setting. And that the dragonbreaks are just the universe trying to come to terms with half a million psychopaths being released on Nirn, and constantly reloading earlier quicksaves.

I suggest you (and to everybody else in this thread) to go to Bangkorai, find the "Rubble Butte" delve, and quest it

Edit: Make sure to read everything there (dialogues and books/notes)!!!

starkerealm · August 2015

Elebeth wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, if you want the really weird and trippy read on the player's superpowers in The Elder Scrolls, go dig up The Metaphysics of Morrowind. It approaches the games with the idea that the player's agency affects the actual setting. So things like the player creating things in the Construction Kit and adding them to the world, or reverting to earlier saves is actually happening in the setting. And that the dragonbreaks are just the universe trying to come to terms with half a million psychopaths being released on Nirn, and constantly reloading earlier quicksaves.

I suggest you (and to everybody else in this thread) to go to Bangkorai, find the "Rubble Butte" delve, and quest it

Edit: Make sure to read everything there (dialogues and books/notes)!!!

Is that the one where the mages made a permanent time loop, so they're actually literally snapping back into existence before you killed them, only so you can snuff them again?

Pallmor · August 2015

Trying to make sense of ES lore is like trying to make sense of a comic book character's history after it's been retconned 3,000 times over several decades.

starkerealm · August 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

As for the Nerevarine's Apotheosis... this is actually a systemic thing baked into the way Morrowind works.

Consider for a moment that Morrowind is the only Elder Scrolls title with uncapped stats. Oblivion softcaps how far you can enchant a stat. If I remember, it also internally hard caps how much you can improve your alchemy and spellcrafting through boosting your stats. But, the Nerevarine can become a literal walking god, with no intervention by Vivec. I remember someone describing Morrowind as a medieval superhero simulator... it that's not completely wrong. You're given the tools and then invited to break the game in a way that later games don't allow.

Did you just shoehorn some reasonable and believable lore into a game mechanic?

I blame The Metaphysics of Morrowind and Dark Souls.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Is that the one where the mages made a permanent time loop, so they're actually literally snapping back into existence before you killed them, only so you can snuff them again?

Yup. With the added bonus that they remember getting snuffed and at least one of them took the time to write about it in-between snuffings.

Elebeth · August 2015

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Is that the one where the mages made a permanent time loop, so they're actually literally snapping back into existence before you killed them, only so you can snuff them again?

Yup. With the added bonus that they remember getting snuffed and at least one of them took the time to write about it in-between snuffings.

He's basically aware of delve re-spawn game mechanic but can't quite figure it out

Lore Issue: Wha the....?! *spoilers*

Lore Issue: Wha the....?! spoilers