New Crafting is going in the wrong direction

FoxPT · August 2015

Today i put my analysis on PTS regarding new crafting items and i have to write this since i only see one post referring this and no news about any change a few days from the launch to main servers.

150/130/120 pieces of materials to craft a v16 piece of Armour with a 18 to 30 points difference between v15 gear and v16.

What the hell is the objective here?

Let me begin saying that i don't defend that things should be easy to get but this transcend the word "difficult" and for no apparent reason other than make the IC patch last longer on time and make PVE Players/Crafters forced to do something they don't want to do.

To obtain crafting materials to make v16 gear you cant get it from deconstruct Armour or Weapons drops from mobs in IC (in PVP areas), and buy it with TelVar Stones in Vendors in IC (from PVP Areas or in coffers for daily quests), in resume you want do v16 crafting go do PVP and get TelVarStones, You get some TelVarStones go get more because 1 item of crafting material costs 100 TVS.

To make a chest piece of v16 you need to get 15000 TVS.

To make a v15 piece you need 20 pieces of Crafting materials and that make sense since it comes in the same increased amount of the previous levels of crafting and should be the same for v16 level crafting. Level v16 armour its not exclusive to PVP gear its also PVE gear then why associate the Crafting with the intent GRIND in PVP, why try to force Crafters do PVP.

In ESO economy the crafting gear its not a profitable way since everyone is always after the bosses/dungeons gear and the crafted gear is only used betweeen the time people take to get their top gear, and mostly people in guilds get that armour by simply asking someone in guild to make them only getting the crafted materials, so this huge amount of difference to craft v16 gear don't gone change that. If people that cant craft v16 gear they don't gone buy crafted materials to ask someone to craft to them because is more expensive then taking the TVS and buy in IC vendor a v16 piece of gear.

Players can get a v16 armour random box for 8000 TVS and its already EPIC (purple) while you need 15000 TVS for a white piece or armour and after that you need to get the rest of the items to make it EPIC.

So to don't extend this more: Why changing the normal progression of the Crafting System, why put the Crafting System behind a objective to force players do things they should have the option not to do it?

Fox.

Dracane · August 2015

Buying time. So that people need to spend days getting a full set of crafted gear. This increases the playtime and brings us the illusion, we have much content.

To be honest, I have no problems with this. This way I have something I have to work for and that I can be excited for. Even though it's artificially playtime that exists simply out of despair.
Though currently there is no crafted set that seems attractive to me and that I would like to get.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

It's all in line with the changing direction of the game away from the relatively equal playing field of P2P sub-based gameplay and toward B2P/F2P monetization gameplay. It's the same reason why there are so many new "grinds" consisting of layers of low RNG and accumulating large amounts of mats or currencies. We can expect this trend to continue and intensify with each update and DLC. While these systems are, individually, time-tested parts of pretty much all MMOs, the way they are being implemented in IC/2.1 comes off as a superficial form of increasing game difficulty at best and a thinly veiled attempt to engineer inconvenience in order to encourage more players into the Crown Store at worst (not to mention the latter is something ZOS said they weren't going to do back when they announced the B2P switch).

FoxPT · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Buying time. So that people need to spend days getting a full set of crafted gear. This increases the playtime and brings us the illusion, he have much content.

Yes exactly what i think too.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

It's all in line with the changing direction of the game away from the relatively equal playing field of P2P sub-based gameplay and toward B2P/F2P monetization gameplay.

I don't see it in that sense of a question of monetization in matter of fact if a game becomes too "GRINDI" people start to leave and there is no way a "Cash Shop" change that. My opinion is more in the direction as @Dracane said giving the illusion of much content.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

FoxPT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Buying time. So that people need to spend days getting a full set of crafted gear. This increases the playtime and brings us the illusion, he have much content.

Yes exactly what i think too.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

It's all in line with the changing direction of the game away from the relatively equal playing field of P2P sub-based gameplay and toward B2P/F2P monetization gameplay.

I don't see it in that sense of a question of monetization in matter of fact if a game becomes too "GRINDI" people start to leave and there is no way a "Cash Shop" change that. My opinion is more in the direction as @Dracane said giving the illusion of much content.

I would say it is both. The illogical exorbitant cost of V16 mats fits the same "end game" grind concept as Champion Points, TV Stones, Glass motif, etc., which by virtue of their repetition ideally lengthen how time people spend playing.

Dracane · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

FoxPT wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Buying time. So that people need to spend days getting a full set of crafted gear. This increases the playtime and brings us the illusion, he have much content.

Yes exactly what i think too.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

It's all in line with the changing direction of the game away from the relatively equal playing field of P2P sub-based gameplay and toward B2P/F2P monetization gameplay.

I don't see it in that sense of a question of monetization in matter of fact if a game becomes too "GRINDI" people start to leave and there is no way a "Cash Shop" change that. My opinion is more in the direction as @Dracane said giving the illusion of much content.

I would say it is both. The illogical exorbitant cost of V16 mats fits the same "end game" grind concept as Champion Points, TV Stones, Glass motif, etc., which by virtue of their repetition ideally lengthen how time people spend playing.

The goal is to emphazise people to repeat the same content over and over again to make a slow progress, so that this content doesn't become boring. So you're right.

Repeating dungeons to get the material, repeating Cyrodiil quests every day (I'm doing this since the game was released and it never becomes boring for some reason) Grinding the same monsters every day, doing the same crafting jobs every day and so on. But then again, what else should they do ? At least they figured out ways, how to make this content as..... bearable as possible. All of that wouldn't be a topic if they would have stuck to their old promises: Constantly new content.

Morimizo · August 2015

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the V16 crafted sets competed well with found sets, but they don't. Very disheartening to be a crafter in this game if this trend continues.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · August 2015

There's alot of people like me who won't waste 100 - 200 hours grinding for the new motifs, much less the mats for v15/v16 armour. If I want the motifs and think they're worth it, I'll just buy them in the crown store. But most likely I'll just wait to see how the next dlc, Orsinium goes in Dec(?). However it may be too late for ESO by then since FO4 (nov), Hitman (dec), Dishounered 2 (jan/feb) anf Mafia 3 (early 2016) will all be coming out, and will take players away, (for at least awhile), from a grindy ESO game.

Robbmrp · August 2015

So when Orsinium comes out later this year is V17 going to be 180 and V18 210 items per set?

They said they are going to get rid of Vet Levels, but who in their right mind would add in more of something they plan do do away with? No one.....

Vet levels are here to stay and the material resources needed to make them are just going to keep going up and up....

Robbmrp · August 2015

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

There's alot of people like me who won't waste 100 - 200 hours grinding for the new motifs, much less the mats for v15/v16 armour. If I want the motifs and think they're worth it, I'll just buy them in the crown store. But most likely I'll just wait to see how the next dlc, Orsinium goes in Dec(?). However it may be too late for ESO by then since FO4 (nov), Hitman (dec), Dishounered 2 (jan/feb) anf Mafia 3 (early 2016) will all be coming out, and will take players away, (for at least awhile), from a grindy ESO game.

You also forgot about Assassins Creed Syndicate(10/23/15), Halo 5 Guardians(10/27/15), COD Black OPS 3(11/4/15), Fallout4(11/10/15) and Star Wars Battlefront(11/15/15). These are all major release games. ESO could easily lose 1/3 to 1/2 of the player base to other games this year.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · August 2015

^This^ Is the reason why I'm thinking of passing on IC and just going straight to the Orsinium grind. Why do the grind twice in a 2 - 3 month span.

Morimizo · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So when Orsinium comes out later this year is V17 going to be 180 and V18 210 items per set?

They said they are going to get rid of Vet Levels, but who in their right mind would add in more of something they plan do do away with? No one.....

Vet levels are here to stay and the material resources needed to make them are just going to keep going up and up....

*quick glimpse of elder scroll*

With the release of Orsinium, players can level to V18, and though the crafting material will remain the same, it will require 5X the amount for V17 as V16, and 10X for V18 as V16 (2000! Yay!). Also, on a somewhat related sidenote, all materials will now come in shards, and you will need 25 shards to make one piece. Available in Crown Store soon, though, no worries.

Have a nice day!!

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

What I'd love to have in the game is a gear orientation where everything has to be crafted. You don't loot your equipment, but you loot the ingredients to craft it. With such a system, you can choose the motif, the trait, and the piece of set you want.

Of course, for such a system to work it's necessary to have a new special ingredient in the game for each set. That would be the item you would have to farm in order to build your set.

A craft only system like this has many advantages over the current system, one of them being a wider relationship between the players, and having a strong community is always a plus for an MMO.

Darlon · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So when Orsinium comes out later this year is V17 going to be 180 and V18 210 items per set?

They said they are going to get rid of Vet Levels, but who in their right mind would add in more of something they plan do do away with? No one.....

Vet levels are here to stay and the material resources needed to make them are just going to keep going up and up....

More logical would be that mats required for V16 will be reduced to a sensible level, V17 will be a bit above that, and then V18 will have the 150 mat requirements... That way the highest level gear will need the highest amount of work, while the rest becomes accesible to anyone..

Dracane · August 2015

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

There's alot of people like me who won't waste 100 - 200 hours grinding for the new motifs, much less the mats for v15/v16 armour. If I want the motifs and think they're worth it, I'll just buy them in the crown store. But most likely I'll just wait to see how the next dlc, Orsinium goes in Dec(?). However it may be too late for ESO by then since FO4 (nov), Hitman (dec), Dishounered 2 (jan/feb) anf Mafia 3 (early 2016) will all be coming out, and will take players away, (for at least awhile), from a grindy ESO game.

And many Bethesda fans will leave for Fallout 4, including me.
I won't leave ESO entirely though, I still enjoy this game. But I'll be less active.

If Fallout 4 offers only half the playtime and fun Skyrim offered, I'll be gone for years

To be honest, I don't like what I saw of Fallout 4 so far. But it doesn't hurt my excitment either.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

There's alot of people like me who won't waste 100 - 200 hours grinding for the new motifs, much less the mats for v15/v16 armour. If I want the motifs and think they're worth it, I'll just buy them in the crown store.

That mentality exactly why they make things grindy in the first place. They specifically engineer inconvenient gameplay precisely so they can offer players the option to pay cash to go around it; this is the cornerstone of game monetization and B2P/F2P models and why the game is quickly turning into a grindfest. Consider all the new grinds versus something like the trait research system. With the trait research system, you become limited by time the more you research, and thus have to make meaningful choices about what traits you'll want to use first, and what pieces of gear/sets you might want to be able to craft first as well. It's a long-term goal system that still allows you some control over how it progresses versus the pure luck of RNG or repetitive grind of CP, mats, etc. They've proven they can create non-grindy goals and systems, but the current income model for the game doesn't encourage them so we are left with this kind of crap.

Iggybot · August 2015

It's funny how throughout most of the history in this game, people complained that there were not enough end game items to work towards or no reputation or anything to grind. Now there's a CP imbalance and too many resources required for end game gear for people to complain about.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

The reason being for such a high cost for crafted VR16 gear is "We want the best armor in the game to be worth it" or something like that but in truth the Trail players and players who grind for drop sets were complaining that crafted sets were so much better than there "hard to get" dropped gear.

Thing is if crafted gear was so much better which it isn't then why waste the time grinding for dropped gear when you can just craft the "so much better" crafted gear.

VoidParticle · August 2015

See if this is the way they are going with crafting then don't get rid of the advantage in stats crafting gave! If it is going to be consuming a ton of time and resources to craft vs just a drop then there needs to be some sort of upside besides just actually making the item.

The thing is they already made a weird nerf decision and they aren't gonna change nothing for 3 months when it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Crafting in almost every GOOD mmo has always been better then drops of same quality. It's logical because of time and resource investment. I'm starting to actually feel cheated. Crafting is only useful now for adding tempers to gear and making armor have styles.

FoxPT · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

...
I would say it is both. The illogical exorbitant cost of V16 mats fits the same "end game" grind concept as Champion Points, TV Stones, Glass motif, etc., which by virtue of their repetition ideally lengthen how time people spend playing.

Yeah i agree with the GRIND concept that you give but been honest "never" or at least the actual concept of todays MMO's cant afford been whitout some sort of GRINDING process. I understand completely the importance of some sort degree in Grinding because its very hard for a game company can lauch new content in a pace the you dont need to grind things.

For example i dont mind to GRIND a Dungeon in search of a piece of armour if i want it but there is a goal in there after i do it 10 times 20 times and when i get what i want i gone feel like i accomplish something i do it for a understandable goal. If a GRIND for 1h, 3h a area to gather materials, its boring yes it is but i dont mind to do it if i know that i am doing it for a purpose collecting mats to craft
But regarding the new crafting items it not presented itself with that. Crafting is not directly connected with PVP and for getting mats to do it you need to PVP. I wanna PVP for the objective of it not because i am a crafter. I dont mind going to GRIND mats in Imperial City but you cant there is no mats to GRIND there.

FoxPT · August 2015

Morimizo wrote: »

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the V16 crafted sets competed well with found sets, but they don't. Very disheartening to be a crafter in this game if this trend continues.

That is what i am saying if the v16 gear give something unique and awesome that worth the time and value of paining to get it, ok there is a goal there. But in this systema a v16 light chest have 18 more armour then a v16 light armour chest.

18 armour more for 130 more mats in a piece or armour ??????????????????

FoxPT · August 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So when Orsinium comes out later this year is V17 going to be 180 and V18 210 items per set?

They said they are going to get rid of Vet Levels, but who in their right mind would add in more of something they plan do do away with? No one.....

Vet levels are here to stay and the material resources needed to make them are just going to keep going up and up....

The reason why i lauch this topic is exactly because that is the way this is going or at least seem so. In one side i think when Orsinium comes maybe maybe they can change that because they are launching more content and then they need the GRIND time consuming that gear as at the other side if they are following this path making it harder to get and do and dont give nothing special to do it then there is the completely wrong way in Crafting.

Gyudan · August 2015

ESO is all grind now.

Instead of figuring out a rewarding way for crafters to make VR16 gear, they just decided to have everyone grind harder for the materials. That keeps players busy and saves on development time.

FoxPT · August 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

What I'd love to have in the game is a gear orientation where everything has to be crafted. You don't loot your equipment, but you loot the ingredients to craft it. With such a system, you can choose the motif, the trait, and the piece of set you want.

Of course, for such a system to work it's necessary to have a new special ingredient in the game for each set. That would be the item you would have to farm in order to build your set.

A craft only system like this has many advantages over the current system, one of them being a wider relationship between the players, and having a strong community is always a plus for an MMO.

The crafting in a MMO can be done in some fascinating and funny ways even get it harder i dont mind harder if it worth it.

FoxPT · August 2015

Iggybot wrote: »

It's funny how throughout most of the history in this game, people complained that there were not enough end game items to work towards or no reputation or anything to grind. Now there's a CP imbalance and too many resources required for end game gear for people to complain about.

@Iggybot not complaining here at all in the objective of my post only making a big question "What the purpose of this in crafting if not intended to be only to force players use the new content that clearly its not for everyone taste?"

Because if it is that the purpose that is wrong and since we are a few days of the official launch only trying to show ZOS that is bad move that dont gone bring the results expected.

Alcast · August 2015

It really doesnt matter, you will be farming the new dungeons anyway 1000x due to the new sets being random drops +random traits

nimander99 · August 2015

I'm gonna laugh when Orsinium drops and its VR 17 to 18 which will require pve players to hit ranks 15 and 16 in Imperial City not to mention 300 plus mats to craft each piece of VR 18 gear.

Elder_III · August 2015

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

^This^ Is the reason why I'm thinking of passing on IC and just going straight to the Orsinium grind. Why do the grind twice in a 2 - 3 month span.

Yep, I will get IC DLC with spare crowns I already have, but I don't think I'll bother with the grind for new gear until Orsinium.

Gerardopg · August 2015

Yeah crafting in eso means nothing right now, we don't have good sets to craft, we can find better sets just grinding that is very boring, actually I would love to have better crafting sets, so the motif really worth something, so you have to grind for the glass motif and the xyvkin a lot, but for what?? We cannot craft anything decent at the moment, I spent a long time working on the dwemer motif, but I only use that armor for the look every time I go to a dungeon or something I have to put another armor to play, they should look at this and improve the crafting sets so their can match the drop ones, that would be fine and would be good for them because you can spend crowns for the new motif, otherwise we don't really need more motif because there is no point in go grind for them spend crowns and everything for something you don't really use

Elder_III · August 2015

Not to mention they crapped on all the crafters with this update making dropped gear now be equal in armor rating to crafted gear... our small little "advantage" promised to be forever that way since the early beta days is gone. That actually made me mad (rather then just confused and irritated as some of the other changes did).

Miwerton · August 2015

Eccesive high cost for crafting, more for buff magicka builds & laggy server. Unless they by a miracle fix this, then im waiting till Orsinum comes.