PvE - RIP Stamina classes in PvE Trials/Arena

asneakybanana · August 2015

twistedmonk wrote: »

I'd have to see a video showing this magical 40k dps. I mean is that 40k dps for like 5 seconds? and then what? 10k dps after that until you build up 1000 ultimate???

what is the sustained dps over say 5/10/15 minutes.

I need more facts not just numbers thrown out with nothing to back it up.

not saying you are right or wrong, but it would add validity to the qQ

No fight in the game lasts more than 5 or so minutes any more so finding longer parses is useless. A sorc with 1k ultimate can sustain 35-40k dps with the right setup for over probably close to 100s. 1k overload gives them 50 light attacks. Let's say it takes them 1.5s per cast that's 75s. Add in execute phase after they've run out of ult and that's 100s. Then they can build up their ult again for the rest of the instance.

Senaxu · August 2015

No fight in the game lasts more than 5 or so minutes any more so finding longer parses is useless. A sorc with 1k ultimate can sustain 35-40k dps with the right setup for over probably close to 100s. 1k overload gives them 50 light attacks. Let's say it takes them 1.5s per cast that's 75s. Add in execute phase after they've run out of ult and that's 100s. Then they can build up their ult again for the rest of the instance.

Ah, no that's not correct. Maybe this values are possible at the PTS atm but at the live server show me one sorcerer who can sustain a 60sec fight with over 35k DPS. 1k ultimate with formerer emporer has atm 50 light attacks... right. in the future he will have 45 light attacks maximum cause the formerer emp is gone(no molag kena). in the best case if you want reach the 30k mark you need to burn you overload in less then 50 sec. the target has to be in execute range then cause with execute and your rest storm calling abilitys you do less DPS than with overload (about 25-27k)

So in fact: A SingleDPS fight who takes more then 110 sec. -> forget overload and equip storm attronach to do better DPS.

PS: overload is just as good than your team. without a great team you will be not able to reach the 30k DPS.

Artemiisia · August 2015

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Senaxu · August 2015

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

trimsic_ESO · August 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I knew it'd be less than on Live, but I didn't expect that drastic differences.

Sharpened Mace on live should "only" be providing a 10-15% difference.

I'd be curious about what gear you were wearing, since many of the current sets are now pretty bad on PTS.

5x Hunding's, 5x Ravager & 2x Nerien'eth/Kena will probably end up being the way to go

Same as on live, 5x Hundings, 5x Ravager, 2x Master Dagger (Sharpened)

Scyantific wrote: »

I call BS. I main a Sorc and even I know that magicka Sorcs have the worst sustained DPS out of all the classes.

Please check your facts.

dude, just lol, I dont even know where to begin to tell you how wrong you are..

Still 2x sharpened daggers and not maces were over-reducing the armor of the enemy on live. Even worse offenders were the sharpened maces that tests demonstrated that one sharpened mace reduced enemy armor by 70%.

Changing from another trait to 2x sharpened weapons (not maces) equated to a 10-14% DPS increase on live even before calculating the loss of the DPS of the previous weapons (precise, weighted etc).

Atm 1 sharpend weapon adds 4% extra damage against high armored targets on PTS and factoring in the loss of the previous trait it is around 2% DPS increase.

Seems to be working accordingly. However, tooltip numbers of separate stamina abilities have to be reconsidered.

On live I am at 100% Penetration+Camo and doing around 21k+ on Manti with 400 CP. Now Sharpened fix, camo 2x nerf, ravager nerf puts stam dps around 13-16k, this is ridiculous compared to Magicka classes which easily pull 18-25k (and Sorc 30k+)

Its just sad that Stamina only could compete due to Sharpened bug ><

Yes but as long as these bugs exist and people overexploit them there is no possibility of actual balance to happen. Don't forget that devs get the wrong impression and numbers from their internal sniffers and people that actually trying to play the game as it is supposed to, get shafted beyond imagination.

Now stick with how proper penetration is supposed to work and wait for next patch for the stamina abilities to be reconsidered for their damage according to actual numbers. Or you can just go back to magicka and skip a patch.

Skipping next patch is not an option due to CP. Well, I have ready to go Magicka classes, but I love stamina, and Its just sad to see that we are going bach to 1.3 where 99% of the population was Magicka.

Don't blame anyone else but us for this and certainly not ZoS. Well you can blame them for leaving bugs like Sharpened Maces, Nirnhorned, double stacking Mundus for over 8 months now in the game. But apart from that they balance according to the numbers they get.

One of the most weird answers I got from a guy I said he is exploiting the sharpened mace bug was that he cannot play with something else because it is BiS.....Can you imagine actually calling a bugged thing BiS. This generation of gamers really surprises me.

The issue is ZOS, they do not know how to balance this game, I mean its fine fixing bugs, but now that they did they should realizse stamina is broken once again.

And again, the responsibilty for this miss is ZOS

Partly true. Not 100% accurate if they depend on live numbers to see how things are. None says that they shouldn't have other ways to sniff numbers or make proper comparisons. But sniffing numbers from live is the most accurate way to compare things. GG gamers....now let's wait for update 8 for stamina abilities to be rebalanced.

To be honest, if they just look at the numbers and don't consider their bugs in the equation, then they don't do correctly their job.

Elijah_Crow · August 2015

I'm hoping @ZOS_RichLambert lurks here. I would have hoped the balance would have taken place after the the bug fixes that would impact them.

Artemiisia · August 2015

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

RammAss · August 2015

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

Senaxu · August 2015

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

a sorc had a hard time before 1.6. I stayed on sorc from the release until now and god it payed of. but anyway... A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stays on one class and mastered it. I wish you best luck bro.

Darlon · August 2015

Senaxu wrote: »

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

a sorc had a hard time before 1.6. I stayed on sorc from the release until now and god it payed of. but anyway... A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stays on one class and mastered it. I wish you best luck bro.

Not just that, but next update/dlc another class will be in that position.. Will that same player reroll again then ?

Faulgor · August 2015

Darlon wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

a sorc had a hard time before 1.6. I stayed on sorc from the release until now and god it payed of. but anyway... A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stays on one class and mastered it. I wish you best luck bro.

Not just that, but next update/dlc another class will be in that position.. Will that same player reroll again then ?

What's to reroll? If you don't have a max level char of every class by now, you don't take this game seriously enough in the first place.

Alcast · August 2015

Artemiisia wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

True, but you have to see, Manti wont last a minute when you have a raid full of overload sorcs.

@Senaxu Rerolling is sometimes needed, especially if some of classes can exceed 1,5x the dps of others. I will make damn sure to try as hard as I can with my Stamina Templar ofc, wont give that easily

And I enjoy playing different classes, tho mostly Stamina, I do hate Magicka DKs, just aint feeling right for me, but I also got one of these but never really bothered trying much.
I will also most likely try Stamina Sorcerer, now that it got a buff it is equal to the other Stamina classes pretty much.

Darlon · August 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Darlon wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

a sorc had a hard time before 1.6. I stayed on sorc from the release until now and god it payed of. but anyway... A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stays on one class and mastered it. I wish you best luck bro.

Not just that, but next update/dlc another class will be in that position.. Will that same player reroll again then ?

What's to reroll? If you don't have a max level char of every class by now, you don't take this game seriously enough in the first place.

Touché

Nifty2g · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

True, but you have to see, Manti wont last a minute when you have a raid full of overload sorcs.

@Senaxu Rerolling is sometimes needed, especially if some of classes can exceed 1,5x the dps of others. I will make damn sure to try as hard as I can with my Stamina Templar ofc, wont give that easily And I enjoy playing different classes, tho mostly Stamina, I do hate Magicka DKs, just aint feeling right for me, but I also got one of these but never really bothered trying much.
I will also most likely try Stamina Sorcerer, now that it got a buff it is equal to the other Stamina classes pretty much.

@Alcast you're going to def need to talk to yuki lol best stamplar in the world

Alcast · August 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

True, but you have to see, Manti wont last a minute when you have a raid full of overload sorcs.

@Senaxu Rerolling is sometimes needed, especially if some of classes can exceed 1,5x the dps of others. I will make damn sure to try as hard as I can with my Stamina Templar ofc, wont give that easily And I enjoy playing different classes, tho mostly Stamina, I do hate Magicka DKs, just aint feeling right for me, but I also got one of these but never really bothered trying much.
I will also most likely try Stamina Sorcerer, now that it got a buff it is equal to the other Stamina classes pretty much.

@Alcast you're going to def need to talk to yuki lol best stamplar in the world

>.>
I reckon that might be not the best idea because we do not exactly "get along".

Nifty2g · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

True, but you have to see, Manti wont last a minute when you have a raid full of overload sorcs.

@Senaxu Rerolling is sometimes needed, especially if some of classes can exceed 1,5x the dps of others. I will make damn sure to try as hard as I can with my Stamina Templar ofc, wont give that easily And I enjoy playing different classes, tho mostly Stamina, I do hate Magicka DKs, just aint feeling right for me, but I also got one of these but never really bothered trying much.
I will also most likely try Stamina Sorcerer, now that it got a buff it is equal to the other Stamina classes pretty much.

@Alcast you're going to def need to talk to yuki lol best stamplar in the world

>.>
I reckon that might be not the best idea because we do not exactly "get along".

I'm disappointed he hasn't beaten either of us in VDSA yet with that amount of CP,

Alcast · August 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Senaxu wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

I had 29k dps on bogdad in elden today with my overload sorc, my best so far, this was without aggressive warhorn and combat prayer

Deadric and still not 35k. i speak from the real challenges, sustain bossfights like Mantikora, Serpent ect.

oh u got me wrong, I actually on your side on this one, no way 35 - 40k dps is possible on Live right now on longer fights where overload runs out, like manticore and where we actually need to move abit as well

True, but you have to see, Manti wont last a minute when you have a raid full of overload sorcs.

@Senaxu Rerolling is sometimes needed, especially if some of classes can exceed 1,5x the dps of others. I will make damn sure to try as hard as I can with my Stamina Templar ofc, wont give that easily And I enjoy playing different classes, tho mostly Stamina, I do hate Magicka DKs, just aint feeling right for me, but I also got one of these but never really bothered trying much.
I will also most likely try Stamina Sorcerer, now that it got a buff it is equal to the other Stamina classes pretty much.

@Alcast you're going to def need to talk to yuki lol best stamplar in the world

>.>
I reckon that might be not the best idea because we do not exactly "get along".

I'm disappointed he hasn't beaten either of us in VDSA yet with that amount of CP,

They do not know all the tactics. They have shitloads of more CP than us. His other DD buddy also got like 2x the CP then normal lol. But well, the moment we release a video (which we should not do before CP cap inc) they will manage to beat us "eventually".

Glantir · August 2015

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

Good luck.... no Veil of Blades, no Solar Prison, no Chains, less AoE

Jeckll · August 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Alcast you're going to def need to talk to yuki lol best stamplar in the world

Sadly, he's not the best theorycrafter in the world. In his recent video for example, he's using wrong data for the Crit Modifiers of Precise Strikes and Beast Trap. So even the best in the world happen to get traped by trusting tool tips over actual testing.

GeertKarel · August 2015

Senaxu wrote: »

RammAss wrote: »

What can the man do when his class/role has no chance to compete anymore? Lets all embrace the New Meta: groups will mostly be full of Sorcs. Its unavoidble. Time to Re-roll!

a sorc had a hard time before 1.6. I stayed on sorc from the release until now and god it payed of. but anyway... A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stays on one class and mastered it. I wish you best luck bro.

I am very happy for you that sorcerer is a good dd for trials, and that you can play the character class that you really like. but.. the part of " A player who just rerolls for "opness" will never beat these players who stay on one class and master it.
I know there are a lot of people that can easily adapt to a new build, lets say the overload sorcerer in your case.
At first the person might fail since he still trying to understand the class but after awhile he will master it too.
can be in few hours, maybe few days or maybe never. It just depends on the player.

I have different classes, I play often with those. I do mainly tanking but I like to switch it out from time to time, I find if you focus on one character too much it rather feels boring, but that is my personal opinion.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

The problem with Overload is that it is not there for EVERY boss. So a Sorc may be able to save Overload for one, and especially with Molag Kena cost increase, but what are they pulling in situations where Overload cannot be used for the entire boss fight or the boss fight at all? Remember, that needs to be built up over time.

As for Sorcs, I hope they have a chance to finally be considered decent dps.

F7sus4 · August 2015

Smolt wrote: »

Any idea what mag nb's are pulling? Seems like they might be a good option too.

With properly built and piloted Magicka NB you can reach an average of 22k DPS on Mantikora (2.0.x). In 2.1.x, it's gonna be better.

asneakybanana · August 2015

Senaxu wrote: »

No fight in the game lasts more than 5 or so minutes any more so finding longer parses is useless. A sorc with 1k ultimate can sustain 35-40k dps with the right setup for over probably close to 100s. 1k overload gives them 50 light attacks. Let's say it takes them 1.5s per cast that's 75s. Add in execute phase after they've run out of ult and that's 100s. Then they can build up their ult again for the rest of the instance.

Ah, no that's not correct. Maybe this values are possible at the PTS atm but at the live server show me one sorcerer who can sustain a 60sec fight with over 35k DPS. 1k ultimate with formerer emporer has atm 50 light attacks... right. in the future he will have 45 light attacks maximum cause the formerer emp is gone(no molag kena). in the best case if you want reach the 30k mark you need to burn you overload in less then 50 sec. the target has to be in execute range then cause with execute and your rest storm calling abilitys you do less DPS than with overload (about 25-27k)

So in fact: A SingleDPS fight who takes more then 110 sec. -> forget overload and equip storm attronach to do better DPS.

PS: overload is just as good than your team. without a great team you will be not able to reach the 30k DPS.

Was talking pts. Live you're probably the highest dps sorc I know of. Perma horn and cp are just as if not more important than your gear and cp. On live I do not think it's doable. Just not possible to get overload hitting hard enough. Even with pets up for that extra couple thousand dps.

asneakybanana · August 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

Smolt wrote: »

Any idea what mag nb's are pulling? Seems like they might be a good option too.

With properly built and piloted Magicka NB you can reach an average of 22k DPS on Mantikora (2.0.x). In 2.1.x, it's gonna be better.

22k O.o.wtf are you doing? Just spamming concealed with like 3.2kk spell damage and 40k mag?

F7sus4 · August 2015

It's a Funnel build. You don't really want to use Concealed Weapon outside PvP and especially not on ranged bosses.

Nifty2g · August 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

It's a Funnel build. You don't really want to use Concealed Weapon outside PvP and especially not on ranged bosses.

I can't think of any ranged bosses lol, they all become melee bosses.
You might want to try out concealed since it's more tooltip damage you know
And there is another secret which I wont spoil till you figure it out

F7sus4 · August 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

You might want to try out concealed since it's more tooltip damage you know

This would make sense if you'd break 24,2k Magicka NB record on Mantikora while doing the outside group.

chongguang · August 2015

Alcast wrote: »

We did a run on PTS (Ping 190/ FPS huge drops bc of god knows what)

Single Target:
Stamina DK/Temp average dps on Manti 13-16k
Magicka Sorc average dps on Manti 25k+
Magicka DK average dps on Manti 18k+
Stamina AoE does 3x less dmg than on live.

On live(without this freaking ping+no fps drops) Stamina might be able to get 17-20k dps.
But Sorcs are going to hit 35k+ dps.

I feel that there is another rebalancing needed after the sharpened bug got fixed, many people already reported those issues in 1.6 PTS. It is good that the bug is fixed, but now redo rebalancing Stamina vs Magicka

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

Sorcerer can hit 35K? Surpass all the biggest stamina competitors ? Why the newest VDSA EU team still made up of 4 Templars in live ?
I think you should prepare some screen catches as proof before you want to post something real unbelievable.

Instant · August 2015

chongguang wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

We did a run on PTS (Ping 190/ FPS huge drops bc of god knows what)

Single Target:
Stamina DK/Temp average dps on Manti 13-16k
Magicka Sorc average dps on Manti 25k+
Magicka DK average dps on Manti 18k+
Stamina AoE does 3x less dmg than on live.

On live(without this freaking ping+no fps drops) Stamina might be able to get 17-20k dps.
But Sorcs are going to hit 35k+ dps.

I feel that there is another rebalancing needed after the sharpened bug got fixed, many people already reported those issues in 1.6 PTS. It is good that the bug is fixed, but now redo rebalancing Stamina vs Magicka

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

Sorcerer can hit 35K? Surpass all the biggest stamina competitors ? Why the newest VDSA EU team still made up of 4 Templars in live ?
I think you should prepare some screen catches as proof before you want to post something real unbelievable.

Obviously overload is quite useless in dsa. At least in most situations.
Watch the video and see a sorc doing 31k dps on manti on live. Considering how much that overload build got buffed on pts i think 35k is a reasonable assumption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN08Xygc39I

cschwingeb14_ESO · August 2015

I think that they are going to just let it go live, and see what shakes out. For example:

Night mothers embrace reduces enemy armor by 2500 (buffed recently). VCoA armor 5set debuff (sunderflame?) armor 3300. Armor reduction enchants, etc. Who knows how much of this stuff stacks, but with sharpened maces no one was bothering to try it.

I think that the above 7000 armor reduction, combined with puncture, CP and possibly sharpened maces too, will boost group DPS quite a bit. People just need time to try it