What Templars and DKs need to do to have their concerns heard

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

It's no secret that a large part of the Templar playerbase feels their class needs some help (bug fixes and buffs). There is a developer thread on it (no longer read it seems by the developers themselves), and after that a player-made thread of more than 40 pages on it (see below for link), and there continue to be repeated threads on the PTS board about it. Things like the Toppling Charge bug, which ZOS refused to recognize for months, then said was a bug and would be removed, then said was not a bug but a feature that would not be removed, then again said it would be removed with IC... have still not been removed on the PTS.

So what can we do next to at least get some response? The answer is clear: make common cause with DKs.

DKs were OP for most of the first year of the game, but since 1.6 have been getting serious nerfs, such that in PvP at least, there is now a pretty clear hierarchy: Sorcs and NBs on top, DKs and Temps near the bottom. What do the lower classes have in common? Quite a bit, actually, most importantly the lack of any escape, which is crippling in PvP. Both also tend to be on the tankier side of the spectrum, and tanking is taking a huge nerf this time with the nerf to blocking. You can already see posts on the PTS talking of NB dominance and DKs needing help.

So perhaps this is one way of finally getting the Templars' concerns. While ZOS seems to have stopped listening to Templar concerns, they have always been much more sensitive to DK concerns. So in talking about what is needed for Templars, link it to the problems that the two tankier classes have in general. Maybe Templars will be able to ride DK coattails to finally have ZOS respond to the problems of the Templar class.

Links:

Templar bugs thread with player suggested fixes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p1

DKs asking for some fixes to DKs on PTS: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209686/dk-relief#latest

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Well not to get picky but Templars are still doing way better than DKs they atleast have AOE heals and there Jesus beam.

Sorc and NB < are here

Templars < are here

Dragon Knights < way down here

Volkodav · August 2015

I find no problems with my DK,and when I ran a templar I didnt get an OP feeling.Although,my first vet is an NB and quite powerful.My second is DK and I made it to V1 easily..

Paradox · August 2015

DKs are my favorite class. Only one that I really enjoy... And they're looking forward to being hit with the nerf train to push them even further down the list.

I don't see the logic in making two classes absolute masters and the other two pushed into mediocrity, but ZoS clearly intends to do this, and has been doing this for months.

They should avoid the 0% stamina regeneration nerf to blocking and change it to 50% or 75%.

With the change to vampirism, mist form will make a lot of sense, so I'd use that... But the block nerf is going to absolutely ruin Dks, as our passives really like block, and now Magicka users, aside from sorcs and NBs, will be totally unable to escape anything.

Bring in the zeros, as this is all that this update will promote. Zerg combat, NB ganking dominance and sorcerers infinitely bolting away and shielding, because they're still unable to comprehend a shield nerf that reduces shield effectiveness when applied on top of another shield.

You can almost entirely list these changes and the reason behind Templar and DK being weak, under 'incompetence'... Much like CP being in blackwater blade.

danno8 · August 2015

They should at least give DK's and Templars ONE skill that gives them major expedition. In addition to BE, sorcerers have one and NB's have, like, I don't know 3-4 in addition to cloak.

Disengaging and avoiding damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>tanking or healing damage (for PvP), because avoiding all damage scales up 100% effectiveness with the number of enemies you face. Tanking and healing do not, in fact they generally scale down 50% for each additional enemy you face.

That is why NB's and Sorcs rule Cyrodiil.

eliisra · August 2015

Yeah dunno why that is, but it feels like I'm playing Elder Nightsorcers Online, feels like I'm reading about Elder Nightsorcers Online on the forum to

While DK + temps are those 2 other random classes we choose not to talk about.

NB + sorc being fotm and overtuned right now obviously explains a lot, like why they're populating 80% of Cyrodiil. But it doesn't explain why the community is so hooked up on those specific classes or why they always end up centre of attention. Maybe it's a case popular archetypes, attracting a lot of noisy fans?

I'm guessing a traditional glass house nuker and a cliché rouge/assassin or Legolas wannabe, attracts the most devotees. While Templar at best, could be a weak version of a WoW paladin. DK, the fire based tank, is a new concept.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well not to get picky but Templars are still doing way better than DKs they atleast have AOE heals and there Jesus beam.

Sorc and NB < are here

Templars < are here

Dragon Knights < way down here

I have to say I perform very well on live pvp with my DK basically as unkillable as a sorc just without the escape my templar has the same burst of my nb but also no escape and is not able to 1v3+ like my DK.

my nb just 2 or 3 shots ppl and is able to dodge almost all incoming attacks although I have crappy self crafted gear and random jewelry

so with the ic update I would say my dk is basically dead due to the block nerf. My templar is still crap maybe a little more crap than before because of the nerf to beam, rune focus and total dark. Nbs and sorcs are not hit by any nerfs they just cant perma dodge/port anymore. Shield stacking has not taken any nerfs and so has cloak

danno8 · August 2015

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

My templar is still crap maybe a little more crap than before because of the nerf to beam, rune focus and total dark.

What nerf to Rune Focus specifically? I tested this the other day and it seems to work the same on live as PTS. After 8 seconds the buffs wear off if you leave the circle (except the magicka part, that stays for the full 20+ seconds). It has always been this way.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

My templar is still crap maybe a little more crap than before because of the nerf to beam, rune focus and total dark.

What nerf to Rune Focus specifically? I tested this the other day and it seems to work the same on live as PTS. After 8 seconds the buffs wear off if you leave the circle (except the magicka part, that stays for the full 20+ seconds). It has always been this way.

they said the magicka part is gone if you leave the circle

Troneon · August 2015

There is only one fix for all these bugs and issues but it works really really well.

Create a Sorc & NB.

Realize ESO pvp and classes will never be balanced or competitive.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

Troneon wrote: »

There is only one fix for all these bugs and issues but it works really really well.

Create a Sorc & NB.

Realize ESO pvp and classes will never be balanced or competitive.

Thats why I rolled my Nb in a few days for the patch and although Im new to the class Id say I became a pretty decent nb but Im no nb player and thats why I want tps and dks to be ballanced

tplink3r1 · August 2015

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

I find no problems with my DK,and when I ran a templar I didnt get an OP feeling.Although,my first vet is an NB and quite powerful.My second is DK and I made it to V1 easily..

Of course you did, anyone with half a brain can level to vr1, even without armor.
Can you read? We are talking about PVP.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · August 2015

If you're under powered as a Templar you're doing it wrong.

Prof_Bawbag · August 2015

My problem with Templers is more or less the issues I've had with certain skills, with reflective light being the worst. It doesn't consistently fire off, the auto aim mechanic on this skill also seems buggy. So many times I've had the cross hairs on a target with a red aura and so many times it's missed that target and hit further away targets. The latter isn't an issue most of the time, but when you're in group dungeons, it's a major issue. I've been swamped because it seems a bit random where it wants to go.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

If you're under powered as a Templar you're doing it wrong.

teach us master

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

My main is a sorc but I spent a ton of time on the Templar bug thread creating lists of known bugs and bringing people back on topic when troll after troll came in the thread and starting talking about jesus beams and how OP templar is because they had an unkillable level 35 templar.

At some point ZOS acknowledged almost all of the issues and said they would investigate. Hopes were high. Then they came back, did a complete 180, and listed almost all of the issues (that they had previously identified as bugs) as working as intended.

Somehow a delay to breath of life was a "feature" and templars were supposed to anticipate in advance when they needed an emergency burst heal. The ZOS responses were very suspicious and transparent and it didn't help that this was right before console launch.

So Templars were deliberately ignored and slighted again and the intelligence of the entire online community was insulted by the careless and blatantly false information given by ZOS.

It was about that point that I lost all interest in the game and abandoned the thread. Did anything get better after that? Is toppling charge STILL less responsive than invasion?

I think the entire templar community should get together and work on a "dream templar patch notes" document. Then, if we all agree, and that is a big if, have everyone link it in their signature.

I tried that with stamina sorc but everyone wanted something completely different. Trolls aside, I feel the templar community is more homogeneous.

Van_0S · August 2015

If you all realize that nerfing templar healers is a problem for NB because they don't have self heals and rally is getting increase in cost ( now i know magika NB can use a restoration staff but that doesn't heal as much as templar healers)
So, now what matters is DPS( no more tanking)

I don't know why ZOS as increased the roll dodge cost when it is more depended on survival from enemy player ( since blocking is pretty much dead)

starkerealm · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Dragon Knights < way down here

I'm not sure, but I think you're doing something wrong. Have you tried inhaling and then turning your blood green?

Van_0S · August 2015

DK and Temp can use exclusive mist form(vampire skill line :mist form morph) to escape from battle. So there is no conserns about NB and sorc are the 2 class that can escape from battle.

Phinix1 · August 2015

Paradox wrote: »

DKs are my favorite class. Only one that I really enjoy... And they're looking forward to being hit with the nerf train to push them even further down the list.

I don't see the logic in making two classes absolute masters and the other two pushed into mediocrity, but ZoS clearly intends to do this, and has been doing this for months.

They should avoid the 0% stamina regeneration nerf to blocking and change it to 50% or 75%.

With the change to vampirism, mist form will make a lot of sense, so I'd use that... But the block nerf is going to absolutely ruin Dks, as our passives really like block, and now Magicka users, aside from sorcs and NBs, will be totally unable to escape anything.

Bring in the zeros, as this is all that this update will promote. Zerg combat, NB ganking dominance and sorcerers infinitely bolting away and shielding, because they're still unable to comprehend a shield nerf that reduces shield effectiveness when applied on top of another shield.

You can almost entirely list these changes and the reason behind Templar and DK being weak, under 'incompetence'... Much like CP being in blackwater blade.

I wish Blizzard would have stuck it out with Titan so we could have a diverse, quality, modern MMO with balanced and rewarding content for all player styles by a dev team that actually knows what they are doing.

No offense to the guys at ZOS, I'm sure they try, but decision after decision reveals their inexperience and naivety of the MMO genre. Releasing 1-sided content, forcing PVE players into a griefer's paradise of unbalanced grind-to-win PVP just to update gear, because it is cheaper than making actual content ("let the players BE the content, GENIUS!").

Now I have absolutely no confidence in them doing the right thing. I see everything at this company now steered by the almighty dollar, and even if the dev's DID have a good idea, the suits are too busy scrambling to make B2P work on their cash shop with never-ending limited time Senche skins to risk investing in the long-term.

That sort of short-sighted thinking too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

As evidenced for it taking them six months to even acknowledge certain class breaking bugs like Templar Eclipse, it seems unlikely that a complete re-coding of the math behind shield stacking is ever going to happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if the suits have canned 80% of the devs anyway, figuring no one will notice with the pace of all their "fixes," and so why not just keep the money for making polka-dotted neon Senche?

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

Phinix1 wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

DKs are my favorite class. Only one that I really enjoy... And they're looking forward to being hit with the nerf train to push them even further down the list.

I don't see the logic in making two classes absolute masters and the other two pushed into mediocrity, but ZoS clearly intends to do this, and has been doing this for months.

They should avoid the 0% stamina regeneration nerf to blocking and change it to 50% or 75%.

With the change to vampirism, mist form will make a lot of sense, so I'd use that... But the block nerf is going to absolutely ruin Dks, as our passives really like block, and now Magicka users, aside from sorcs and NBs, will be totally unable to escape anything.

Bring in the zeros, as this is all that this update will promote. Zerg combat, NB ganking dominance and sorcerers infinitely bolting away and shielding, because they're still unable to comprehend a shield nerf that reduces shield effectiveness when applied on top of another shield.

You can almost entirely list these changes and the reason behind Templar and DK being weak, under 'incompetence'... Much like CP being in blackwater blade.

I wish Blizzard would have stuck it out with Titan so we could have a diverse, quality, modern MMO with balanced and rewarding content for all player styles by a dev team that actually knows what they are doing.

No offense to the guys at ZOS, I'm sure they try, but decision after decision reveals their inexperience and naivety of the MMO genre. Releasing 1-sided content, forcing PVE players into a griefer's paradise of unbalanced grind-to-win PVP just to update gear, because it is cheaper than making actual content ("let the players BE the content, GENIUS!").

Now I have absolutely no confidence in them doing the right thing. I see everything at this company now steered by the almighty dollar, and even if the dev's DID have a good idea, the suits are too busy scrambling to make B2P work on their cash shop with never-ending limited time Senche skins to risk investing in the long-term.

That sort of short-sighted thinking too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

As evidenced for it taking them six months to even acknowledge certain class breaking bugs like Templar Eclipse, it seems unlikely that a complete re-coding of the math behind shield stacking is ever going to happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if the suits have canned 80% of the devs anyway, figuring no one will notice with the pace of all their "fixes," and so why not just keep the money for making polka-dotted neon Senche?

Actually, 'let the players be the content' is great for many games such as Star Wars Galaxies. I think what killed Galaxies (and everyone I've ever talked to agreed) ultimately was that they actually tried to be more like WoW, and the playerbase rejected that change. Player-generated-content can be great, the big issue is delivery.

Springt-Über-Zwerge · August 2015

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

DK and Temp can use exclusive mist form(vampire skill line :mist form morph) to escape from battle. So there is no conserns about NB and sorc are the 2 class that can escape from battle.

Yea and we are forced to play vamp because of that. What if we dont want to be vamp?

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

My main is a sorc but I spent a ton of time on the Templar bug thread creating lists of known bugs and bringing people back on topic when troll after troll came in the thread and starting talking about jesus beams and how OP templar is because they had an unkillable level 35 templar.

At some point ZOS acknowledged almost all of the issues and said they would investigate. Hopes were high. Then they came back, did a complete 180, and listed almost all of the issues (that they had previously identified as bugs) as working as intended.

Somehow a delay to breath of life was a "feature" and templars were supposed to anticipate in advance when they needed an emergency burst heal. The ZOS responses were very suspicious and transparent and it didn't help that this was right before console launch.

So Templars were deliberately ignored and slighted again and the intelligence of the entire online community was insulted by the careless and blatantly false information given by ZOS.

It was about that point that I lost all interest in the game and abandoned the thread. Did anything get better after that? Is toppling charge STILL less responsive than invasion?

I think the entire templar community should get together and work on a "dream templar patch notes" document. Then, if we all agree, and that is a big if, have everyone link it in their signature.

I tried that with stamina sorc but everyone wanted something completely different. Trolls aside, I feel the templar community is more homogeneous.

Thanks for your efforts. I'm sorry no one at ZOS is listening to rational, evidenced arguments about what Templars need anymore. But I did at least want to thank you for all the time you took to try to help us.