Sorcerer Change Suggestions and Reasoning

Ezareth · August 2015

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Don't take my word for it. Fine. How about Ezareths? Very respected player. Won't even play his. Easy mode right now. Tank with 30 k shields, 2k spell power, and 30k+ magika. That is the norm now for sorcs.

How about those facts?

Afaik @ezareth is playing his nb because he feels nb is ahead of sorcerers with the 1.6 meta... Not because the sorc is op

I'm playing my NB because I'm having fun with him and he's DC and I feel DC could use the help. I set out to make a sorc-killer with my NB but the CP system out-paced me. While my NB is unkillable by sorcs in a 1 v 1 scenario, in order to try to kill them I put myself at risk to dying by them.

I'm not playing my sorc right now because he's AD and I don't want to be associated with the skillless sorcs who have becomes as Darnathian has said, EZ-mode tanks. I have a chance to kill the very best of DKs, Templar and NBs right now and I've killed most of them. I don't stand a chance to kill the best sorcs. I can killed 85% of them but the good and great ones just have all the advantages and there is no way you can break through their shields fast enough to kill them without exposing yourself to be killed first in the process.

I think based upon changes on 2.1 PTS it should bring many of the imbalanced under control but who knows until I get to test it more in depth. Until then yeah, even Cinnamon Spider(Exuisite Bedlam) who has been running with me on her Templar agrees this is the case.

I don't fault people for still playing their sorcs or anything, more power to them, but right now if you're min/maxing your shields as a skilled sorc, you're at an massive advantage over any other class.

I agree with almost everything you said. Yet i don´t know how you could balance shields (atleast for both scenarios of 1v1 AND XvX). I´m playing mainly in a small grp with 2 to 5 people. As soon as you´re able able to focusfire a sorc they are dead meat or have to withdraw completely from the fight (which they will no longer be able to in 2.1).

Sorc offers no grp utility apart from healing ward + bol (both are heavily nerfed on pts and rightfully so) and being a durable dps in small grp encounters.
If you´re going to take their survivability too there will simply be no reason left to bring a sorc into grp play because they don´t offer anything unique.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sorcs need nerfed the scaling needs fixed and I think on PTS it was fixed (The math behind the Cyrodiil buff).

Sorcs should be just as survivable as any other class but right now they are far more survivable than any other class. In 2.1 this appears to be fixed so lets test and see.

I've never been a believer that sorc shields should scale of health and I still don't believe that.

ToRelax · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Don't take my word for it. Fine. How about Ezareths? Very respected player. Won't even play his. Easy mode right now. Tank with 30 k shields, 2k spell power, and 30k+ magika. That is the norm now for sorcs.

How about those facts?

Afaik @ezareth is playing his nb because he feels nb is ahead of sorcerers with the 1.6 meta... Not because the sorc is op

I'm playing my NB because I'm having fun with him and he's DC and I feel DC could use the help. I set out to make a sorc-killer with my NB but the CP system out-paced me. While my NB is unkillable by sorcs in a 1 v 1 scenario, in order to try to kill them I put myself at risk to dying by them.

I'm not playing my sorc right now because he's AD and I don't want to be associated with the skillless sorcs who have becomes as Darnathian has said, EZ-mode tanks. I have a chance to kill the very best of DKs, Templar and NBs right now and I've killed most of them. I don't stand a chance to kill the best sorcs. I can killed 85% of them but the good and great ones just have all the advantages and there is no way you can break through their shields fast enough to kill them without exposing yourself to be killed first in the process.

I think based upon changes on 2.1 PTS it should bring many of the imbalanced under control but who knows until I get to test it more in depth. Until then yeah, even Cinnamon Spider(Exuisite Bedlam) who has been running with me on her Templar agrees this is the case.

I don't fault people for still playing their sorcs or anything, more power to them, but right now if you're min/maxing your shields as a skilled sorc, you're at an massive advantage over any other class.

I agree with almost everything you said. Yet i don´t know how you could balance shields (atleast for both scenarios of 1v1 AND XvX). I´m playing mainly in a small grp with 2 to 5 people. As soon as you´re able able to focusfire a sorc they are dead meat or have to withdraw completely from the fight (which they will no longer be able to in 2.1).

Sorc offers no grp utility apart from healing ward + bol (both are heavily nerfed on pts and rightfully so) and being a durable dps in small grp encounters.
If you´re going to take their survivability too there will simply be no reason left to bring a sorc into grp play because they don´t offer anything unique.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sorcs need nerfed the scaling needs fixed and I think on PTS it was fixed (The math behind the Cyrodiil buff).

Sorcs should be just as survivable as any other class but right now they are far more survivable than any other class. In 2.1 this appears to be fixed so lets test and see.

I've never been a believer that sorc shields should scale of health and I still don't believe that.

They seem to have adjusted the shield scaling with battle spirit, yes - but they also seem to actually adjust the skills one by one instead of changing the buff system to make battle spirit work multiplicative with other increases in the first place (wether that effect the stacking of other buffs or not).
So there's not that much to test here before all the damage scales as it should imo.

Darnathian · August 2015

Glantir wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

You just proved that the sorc has better shields than the "tank class". And at no cost to your offensive output. You want to fix this?

Make igneous shield scale off magicka too. We have no escape. Why should a sorc have better shields?

Why should the "tank class" deal more dps than the sorc class?

Where did I say that. Learn to read. I said our shields should be stronger

Jar_Ek · August 2015

@Darnathian I think you missed the point that @Glantir was making. It was that DK do more dps then sorcerers - which is especially true for stamina builds... but then all classes (magicka and stamina) do more dps than stamina sorcerers.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

The way I see it the overal sorc class is too much burst orientated, great for pvp but bad for pve.

Problem 1: too much toggled ablities. This needs to change, make them 1-2 minute active buffs or highly increase their usefulness. For bound aegis sorcs have to sacrifice 20% of their skill bars for 8% magicka and little to no added protection, seriously?

Problem 2: only one (useful) damage mitigating ability. Yes, hardened ward is strong, perhaps even too strong. But what else do sorcs have to mitigate damage? Sorcs wont survive anything with bound armor, lightning form, dark deal or defensive rune. These skills are poorly designed and need to be changed into something useful.

Problem 3: no spammable attack. It would be great if sorcs had an attack to weave with. Also, the word sorcerer kinda implies that you would be able to do instant damage to a target. Easy solution is to change one of the Mages Fury mophs to a lightning strike, preferably with a small effect or DoT.

Problem 4: only one DoT/aoe ground ability. The change to lightning splash was much needed but one small aoe ground effect is not enough. It only works on stationary targets so its not always useful. My suggestion would be to change daedric prey to a longer curse (10-12 seconds) wih DoT ticks. This wouldnt effect pvp because DoT are useless in pvp but this would boost sorc pve dps, incl pet builds.

Most posts above have valid points but lets try to keep this a sorc improvement thread.

Dracane · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The way I see it the overal sorc class is too much burst orientated, great for pvp but bad for pve.

Problem 1: too much toggled ablities. This needs to change, make them 1-2 minute active buffs or highly increase their usefulness. For bound aegis sorcs have to sacrifice 20% of their skill bars for 8% magicka and little to no added protection, seriously?

Problem 2: only one (useful) damage mitigating ability. Yes, hardened ward is strong, perhaps even too strong. But what else do sorcs have to mitigate damage? Sorcs wont survive anything with bound armor, lightning form, dark deal or defensive rune. These skills are poorly designed and need to be changed into something useful.

Problem 3: no spammable attack. It would be great if sorcs had an attack to weave with. Also, the word sorcerer kinda implies that you would be able to do instant damage to a target. Easy solution is to change one of the Mages Fury mophs to a lightning strike, preferably with a small effect or DoT.

Problem 4: only one DoT/aoe ground ability. The change to lightning splash was much needed but one small aoe ground effect is not enough. It only works on stationary targets so its not always useful. My suggestion would be to change daedric prey to a longer curse (10-12 seconds) wih DoT ticks. This wouldnt effect pvp because DoT are useless in pvp but this would boost sorc pve dps, incl pet builds.

Most posts above have valid points but lets try to keep this a sorc improvement thread.

I agree with most of the things

Bound armor, pets. Both require 2 or 3 slot per skill for a tiny effect. They must be improved, or be changed to be buffs that last 1-2 minutes or so.

And Daedric Prey.... Would be interesting if it was a DoT. But this would make it even more useless for pvp, where Nightblade just push the I win button and cloak it. Even though Daedric Prey is much worse than Velocious Curse, it explodes and this helps a bit. If it was a DoT, Pets would be even weaker in pvp and we all know, pets barely deal any damage and without Daedric Prey, you can forget them entirely.

Darnathian · August 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Darnathian I think you missed the point that @Glantir was making. It was that DK do more dps then sorcerers - which is especially true for stamina builds... but then all classes (magicka and stamina) do more dps than stamina sorcerers.

If PVE sure. I agree. Pvp is another animal. Sorry I should have been more specific. I don't PVE anymore. All a dk has is dots and whip. Dots don't do crap

Cathexis · August 2015

If you want a dot why wouldn't you just the soul magic ability.It even restores a chunk of resources if you kill your target.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The way I see it the overal sorc class is too much burst orientated, great for pvp but bad for pve.

Problem 1: too much toggled ablities. This needs to change, make them 1-2 minute active buffs or highly increase their usefulness. For bound aegis sorcs have to sacrifice 20% of their skill bars for 8% magicka and little to no added protection, seriously?

Problem 2: only one (useful) damage mitigating ability. Yes, hardened ward is strong, perhaps even too strong. But what else do sorcs have to mitigate damage? Sorcs wont survive anything with bound armor, lightning form, dark deal or defensive rune. These skills are poorly designed and need to be changed into something useful.

Problem 3: no spammable attack. It would be great if sorcs had an attack to weave with. Also, the word sorcerer kinda implies that you would be able to do instant damage to a target. Easy solution is to change one of the Mages Fury mophs to a lightning strike, preferably with a small effect or DoT.

Problem 4: only one DoT/aoe ground ability. The change to lightning splash was much needed but one small aoe ground effect is not enough. It only works on stationary targets so its not always useful. My suggestion would be to change daedric prey to a longer curse (10-12 seconds) wih DoT ticks. This wouldnt effect pvp because DoT are useless in pvp but this would boost sorc pve dps, incl pet builds.

Most posts above have valid points but lets try to keep this a sorc improvement thread.

I agree with most of the things Bound armor, pets. Both require 2 or 3 slot per skill for a tiny effect. They must be improved, or be changed to be buffs that last 1-2 minutes or so.

And Daedric Prey.... Would be interesting if it was a DoT. But this would make it even more useless for pvp, where Nightblade just push the I win button and cloak it. Even though Daedric Prey is much worse than Velocious Curse, it explodes and this helps a bit. If it was a DoT, Pets would be even weaker in pvp and we all know, pets barely deal any damage and without Daedric Prey, you can forget them entirely.

True, the morph choice for curse would be between pvp (velocious curse) or pve (daedric prey). Which is already the case pretty much, not a lot of sorcs use daedric prey in pvp.

The benefit would be that pve sorcs (even builds without pets) would have a DoT to increase their single target dps without buffing pvp sorcs.

Even though such a change would be welcome, I would prefer an instant damage ability from the storm calling skill tree.

Dracane · August 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The way I see it the overal sorc class is too much burst orientated, great for pvp but bad for pve.

Problem 1: too much toggled ablities. This needs to change, make them 1-2 minute active buffs or highly increase their usefulness. For bound aegis sorcs have to sacrifice 20% of their skill bars for 8% magicka and little to no added protection, seriously?

Problem 2: only one (useful) damage mitigating ability. Yes, hardened ward is strong, perhaps even too strong. But what else do sorcs have to mitigate damage? Sorcs wont survive anything with bound armor, lightning form, dark deal or defensive rune. These skills are poorly designed and need to be changed into something useful.

Problem 3: no spammable attack. It would be great if sorcs had an attack to weave with. Also, the word sorcerer kinda implies that you would be able to do instant damage to a target. Easy solution is to change one of the Mages Fury mophs to a lightning strike, preferably with a small effect or DoT.

Problem 4: only one DoT/aoe ground ability. The change to lightning splash was much needed but one small aoe ground effect is not enough. It only works on stationary targets so its not always useful. My suggestion would be to change daedric prey to a longer curse (10-12 seconds) wih DoT ticks. This wouldnt effect pvp because DoT are useless in pvp but this would boost sorc pve dps, incl pet builds.

Most posts above have valid points but lets try to keep this a sorc improvement thread.

I agree with most of the things Bound armor, pets. Both require 2 or 3 slot per skill for a tiny effect. They must be improved, or be changed to be buffs that last 1-2 minutes or so.

And Daedric Prey.... Would be interesting if it was a DoT. But this would make it even more useless for pvp, where Nightblade just push the I win button and cloak it. Even though Daedric Prey is much worse than Velocious Curse, it explodes and this helps a bit. If it was a DoT, Pets would be even weaker in pvp and we all know, pets barely deal any damage and without Daedric Prey, you can forget them entirely.

True, the morph choice for curse would be between pvp (velocious curse) or pve (daedric prey). Which is already the case pretty much, not a lot of sorcs use daedric prey in pvp.

The benefit would be that pve sorcs (even builds without pets) would have a DoT to increase their single target dps without buffing pvp sorcs.

Even though such a change would be welcome, I would prefer an instant damage ability from the storm calling skill tree.

No need to talk about this, it's more than obvious, that we need an instant cast class ability with reasonable damage.

If they don't make this change to Mage's Fury in general, then they should do it with the Morphs. Endless Fury stays, and Mage's wrath gets its initial bolt damage increased, to make it our spammable class skill. Both morphs are rather useless, I usually leave mage's Fury unmorphed. But the mage's wrath bonus us even less usefull, so I think they should change it.