Darnathian wrote: »Don't take my word for it. Fine. How about Ezareths? Very respected player. Won't even play his. Easy mode right now. Tank with 30 k shields, 2k spell power, and 30k+ magika. That is the norm now for sorcs.
How about those facts?
@Darnathian
If you love underdogs, then play a stamina sorcerer.
And atm we are trying to discuss ways to improve sorcerers such that if/when sorcerer shields are reduced and bolt escape is further nerfed, we have some tools to use to survive. Hence ways to make Bound Armour worth slotting, and alternative methods of dps-ing, rather than the current crystal shards..
Darnathian wrote: »
Omg. Healing ward is for everyone. Cancels each other's out.
Do you hear yourself right now? 8-12k after next patch with nerf? That is higher than igneous shield now. Lol. You are completely off you rocker.
Pretty much everyone? Who besides sorcs? Nice try. You try to speak for people and fail at it. Read the forums. Can't argue numbers. You literally just quantified why they are OP. You're words not mine.
This is why defendants don't take the witness stand. Good job
Darnathian wrote: »
Omg. Healing ward is for everyone. Cancels each other's out.
Do you hear yourself right now? 8-12k after next patch with nerf? That is higher than igneous shield now. Lol. You are completely off you rocker.
Pretty much everyone? Who besides sorcs? Nice try. You try to speak for people and fail at it. Read the forums. Can't argue numbers. You literally just quantified why they are OP. You're words not mine.
This is why defendants don't take the witness stand. Good job
Nerf healing wardOr make it impossible to stack 2 physical shields. Sorcerer has no good class heal, they will be easy prey with Hardened ward only. I am not the kind of Sorcerer who uses healing ward in pvp, I refuse using this thing, it's honorless.
Sorcerer has a great class shield in exchange for having no heal. I like this idea and it totally gets destroyed by healing ward. I don't support this.
Darnathian wrote: »
Your right. I apologize. Sorry to derail. Had a couple of beers and that toon really spins me up. He is the most biased I have seen since that DC guy that used to call all EP spam monkeys. Can't remember his name.
Yes. You are off your rocker. After a nerf it is still stronger than the "tank" now before the nerf. Funny indeed
Ahhhh 8 k is still too much for you ? Sorry, can't help you, can't take you serious.
Indeed, I'm off my rocker. Fell of because I'm laughing so hard at your arguments.
Ahhhh 8 k is still too much for you ? Sorry, can't help you, can't take you serious.
Indeed, I'm off my rocker. Fell of because I'm laughing so hard at your arguments.
Darnathian wrote: »
I hear you on that. However, before this nerf Gdb heals 33%. That means we would have to be in execute range with a base health of 54k health to equal that 18k shield. I will trade you.
Not to mention that that extra health doesn't help our offensive capabilities like yours scaling off magicka.
See the difference?
Hm yea.
But still, again you fail hard at understanding how classes are supposed to work.
Sorcerers are meant to use their shield as their only defense. Mages in most MMOs have a Mana based shield, Zenimax took this concept and this is alright.
Dragonknights aren't even supposed to use their shield that much. They have over means to protect themselves. AND you still have access to other shields. if you refuse using Harness Magicka and Healing Ward, your fault. Go full Magicka and take them and you will have strong shields. Yes, somewhat weaker than Sorcerer shields. But you still have your other survival mechanics. It would be OP, if Templars and Dragonknights had those PLUS a strong class shields.
Please, can't you understand me ? Why can't you understand me ? What doesn't make sense for you ? I can't help it anymore, this is so simple to understand but you just close your eyes.
@Cathexis you say you disagree with me and then agree with the reasons I cited for why I don't like/use it.
I don't understand your response unless you just want me to be aware that you disagree yet agree?
Currently in v2.1 there is no way you can use this without being subpar. I already have over 32k Stamina. Basically you are telling me to give up much needed skills for a toggle I need on both bars for 2400 Stamina, 154 tooltip damage on Execute, 460 extra tooltip damage on Wrecking blow and even less tooltip damage (100-200) for dual wield skills? Hell no. That's horrible. The damage increase in PvP is so miniscule it's not even worth having. I can't follow your reasoning here. This ability is currently garbage.
Darnathian wrote: »
Oh and what survival tools? Put your money where your mouth is. Gdb? Nerfed. Scales? Nerfed. Igneous shield? Nerfed.
So what survival tools are left? Let alone compare to a 18k class shield.
Darnathian wrote: »Don't take my word for it. Fine. How about Ezareths? Very respected player. Won't even play his. Easy mode right now. Tank with 30 k shields, 2k spell power, and 30k+ magika. That is the norm now for sorcs.
How about those facts?
Afaik @ezareth is playing his nb because he feels nb is ahead of sorcerers with the 1.6 meta... Not because the sorc is op
@Xael Im just disagreeing with you that its garbage, and I'd point out that if you apply an 8% damage increase to your numbers comparatively you wouldn't see a significantly greater increase. I'm just saying I've found it to be superior for pure damage stacking than using alternative skills. You have to consider that 2.4k stam is 2 attacks, 1-2 blocks, or a roll dodge. That 460 damage on wrecking blow? It gets you 920 damage on a critical, 1104 damage with the wb 20% damage buff (that's not even considering any other % damage bonuses). I also substituted that skill for execute, for the reasons I explained in my last post (because its flat damage instead of a low health bonus and also because the damage output on wb is better than execute for the same cost AND you get a stam pool boost). If you have a 33.3% chance to crit that's an extra 2k+ every three hits. That's not even looking at what it will do for snipe (same damage, more crit, and you can guarantee crit from stealth).
Just saying it depends on if you prefer a little more burst or more utility abilities.
As far as the 8% damage goes, you are correct. Now that I look at the raw numbers, being forced to multi slot a toggle is not worth 8% extra damage. It's almost the same as the current 8% stamina and having raw stamina would be better than it's equivalent in damage. For some reason I was thinking 8% damage would give more of a boost. ZOS would have to do a lot more to it to make it worth having.
However you said it's superior for stacking damage. In that respect we might as well slot Degeneration on the offbar for the Might of the Guild proc. You are saying that if I choose to not slot important skills like Rally or Vigor or Expert Hunter (insert morph) or Shuffle or Execute or Streak or Efficient Purge... (these are some of the skills I would be giving up for Bound Arm) I can get a little extra damage. This damage (less than 500 on the biggest ability) is nothing. If I were to sacrifice a slot for a toggle it would be better suited toward Radiant Magelight. My Rally ticks for more than BA offers. This is why the skill is "garbage." There is nothing on my bars that is worth replacing, nothing. 2k Stamina is meager, it doesn't give me another consecutive dodge roll, a break free, or anything worthwhile. I don't run out of Stamina spamming abilities as it is, particularly since I dumped Thundering Presence for Boundless Storm. Looking at the big picture, a small amount of extra damage is not worth giving up a full situational skill, a heal, a dodge/purge buff, a gap closer, an execute or anything.
In fact by giving up any of these current abilities I will not be alive as long, I will not kill as fast, I will not be able to 1vX. So that extra damage wont happen because I am either dead or just can't catch/kill the target. It's not worth it. However if you feel like you need to slot it, go for itI am getting the most out of my build and there is certainly no room for this.
@Xael You can give up execute and purge and retain your efficiency. Purge is highly circumstantial, it's only really useful for fire ballistas (which you can dodge) or sorc debuffs (which you can block). I have adapted to this, and I prefer the damage bonus a lot more.
But I get its not for everyone.
Nerf healing wardOr make it impossible to stack 2 physical shields. Sorcerer has no good class heal, they will be easy prey with Hardened ward only. I am not the kind of Sorcerer who uses healing ward in pvp, I refuse using this thing, it's honorless.
Sorcerer has a great class shield in exchange for having no heal. I like this idea and it totally gets destroyed by healing ward. I don't support this.
I don't fault people for still playing their sorcs or anything, more power to them, but right now if you're min/maxing your shields as a skilled sorc, you're at an massive advantage over any other class.
@Darnathian First off, Dragonblood is the same as before. All healing abilities are reduced by 50% in Cyrodiil, because each point of health is now much more valueable, because damage got reduced by a lot. So of course they have to reduce healing, I think you can follow me.
Dragonblood wasn't even reduced by 50%, because Dragonblood and all other heals were already reduced by 15% in 1.6.
And here a comparison between Sorcerer shield stack and Dragonknight shield stack. Made 2 characters ESPECIALLY FOR YOU. Same champion points, same stats and no passives spent. Only the abilities, champion points 100 points into Bastion, Elemental talent and Magician and same food and exact same gear (of course, templates)
Darnathian wrote: »
You just proved that the sorc has better shields than the "tank class". And at no cost to your offensive output. You want to fix this?
Make igneous shield scale off magicka too. We have no escape. Why should a sorc have better shields?
Slightly better shield AND DK has a self heal that gets buffed a lot by his shield and he has more abilities to protect himself than Sorcerers.
You have reasonable shields + your other tools. Don't be greedy -.- You can have so much if you would only use it.
Darnathian wrote: »
Trust me. I want balance. Not the old days where dk for gods. But right now whether you agree or not below average sorcs, the ones that rolled once this set up got out, are untouchable.
It's a shame for those, like you, are being throw into it. You deserved some fun for awhile. You got it. Now time to tune it down a little.
Leave sorcs alone then. But make our shields, and temps, scale off magicka too.
I have been playing my dk 90% of the time since launch. I know how to play him. A great dk or Templar will simply lose to a average sorc right now c plain and simple. The second we open ourselves up to try to burst through we are toast.
We use to be able to drain your stamina with petrify. Remember all the threads crying for a nerf on that one. Why did they disappear?
Because sorcs have enough cp's now to break free every 8 seconds. There is no hard counter now. Plain and simple
I'm playing my NB because I'm having fun with him and he's DC and I feel DC could use the help. I set out to make a sorc-killer with my NB but the CP system out-paced me. While my NB is unkillable by sorcs in a 1 v 1 scenario, in order to try to kill them I put myself at risk to dying by them.
I'm not playing my sorc right now because he's AD and I don't want to be associated with the skillless sorcs who have becomes as Darnathian has said, EZ-mode tanks. I have a chance to kill the very best of DKs, Templar and NBs right now and I've killed most of them. I don't stand a chance to kill the best sorcs. I can killed 85% of them but the good and great ones just have all the advantages and there is no way you can break through their shields fast enough to kill them without exposing yourself to be killed first in the process.
I think based upon changes on 2.1 PTS it should bring many of the imbalanced under control but who knows until I get to test it more in depth. Until then yeah, even Cinnamon Spider(Exuisite Bedlam) who has been running with me on her Templar agrees this is the case.
I don't fault people for still playing their sorcs or anything, more power to them, but right now if you're min/maxing your shields as a skilled sorc, you're at an massive advantage over any other class.
I agree with almost everything you said. Yet i don´t know how you could balance shields (atleast for both scenarios of 1v1 AND XvX). I´m playing mainly in a small grp with 2 to 5 people. As soon as you´re able able to focusfire a sorc they are dead meat or have to withdraw completely from the fight (which they will no longer be able to in 2.1).
Sorc offers no grp utility apart from healing ward + bol (both are heavily nerfed on pts and rightfully so) and being a durable dps in small grp encounters.
If you´re going to take their survivability too there will simply be no reason left to bring a sorc into grp play because they don´t offer anything unique.
I agree with almost everything you said. Yet i don´t know how you could balance shields (atleast for both scenarios of 1v1 AND XvX). I´m playing mainly in a small grp with 2 to 5 people. As soon as you´re able able to focusfire a sorc they are dead meat or have to withdraw completely from the fight (which they will no longer be able to in 2.1).
Sorc offers no grp utility apart from healing ward + bol (both are heavily nerfed on pts and rightfully so) and being a durable dps in small grp encounters.
If you´re going to take their survivability too there will simply be no reason left to bring a sorc into grp play because they don´t offer anything unique.
Darnathian wrote: »
You just proved that the sorc has better shields than the "tank class". And at no cost to your offensive output. You want to fix this?
Make igneous shield scale off magicka too. We have no escape. Why should a sorc have better shields?
Darnathian wrote: »
I hear you on that. However, before this nerf Gdb heals 33%. That means we would have to be in execute range with a base health of 54k health to equal that 18k shield. I will trade you.
Not to mention that that extra health doesn't help our offensive capabilities like yours scaling off magicka.
See the difference?